Last Air Battle On This Day

[Windjammer]

@WJ and PDF members,
I do not know much of defense related matters. But questions asked in post 97 are very relevant and thought provoking and a layman line me forced to think WHY PAF did so?
Would you pls do us a favor and enlighten us..

I repeat questions...
Some of my questions:

Q1. How do you explain the non-involvement of 3 squadrons of PAF aircrafts in light of Longewala ( & the Raj. sector in general) and for the PN.

Albeit you are repeating some one else's initive, however i will reply in kind.
USA, and USSR or Russia are both the super powers, yet both were humiliated in Vietnam and Afghanistan respectively, one could also argue as to why they didn't throw all their military might into their conflict. In related term, i am sure you know the difference between a withdraw and tactical retreat. As for PN, PAF had no maritime capability in 1971, however several missions were flown in support of the Navy. ( Check Table in Post#44. In any case the PN redeemed it'self by scoring first submarine kill since the second world war'
I also posed a question, where was IAF, (which was and still is somewhat 4 times larger than PAF) when PAF boldly conducted daring daylight raids on Pathankot and Utterlai, also when Mukerian railyards full of arm and ammo trains, was attacked and devastated to such effect that the IA had to postpone it's efforts in the designated areas.

Q2. Any examples of a conflict where a country has enjoyed air dominance and still lost the war.

The above example should suffice.

Q3. What is your opinion on KT's blog where he clearly mentions that changezi went down on the last day of the conflict.

Here is a classical saying, there is no difference in, beaten after being dragged or beaten and then dragged, the debater has indulged into a ridiculous argument, albeit i acknowledged that Changezi was shot down, however my understanding was that he was KIA earlier in the war, but does it really matter except to raise the banter.

Q4. How do you explain the non-usage of RJAF 104's ? ( They were there for a reason , clearly PAF will be using them if it could have improved the situation)

The IAF accounts lists places of engagements mostly over India, in which it claimed, 6 PAF Mirages and 9 F-104s being shot down, the first claim was soon shot down as PAF assembled and lined up all it's
Mirages soon after the war, even without this, let me ask you and other Indian members, with the exception of some grainy shots of F-86s being shot down, what credible evidence has the IAF come up to back it's claims on the Mirages and F-104s ?? no gun camera shots, no wreckage photos or detail of serial numbers.
Lastly, like other member, i don't just merely resort to Google for fact finding missions, some resources i can disclose while others are close to my heart.

 

[John Doe]

i acknowledged that Changezi was shot down, however my understanding was that he was KIA earlier in the war, but does it really matter except to raise the banter.

So now you are irredeemably proved wrong, it doesn't matter
So pray, why have you been arguing about it in multiple posts? Like little children who don't get their toy and then say they didn't want it in the first place!!!
Your above statement caught my eye first so I replied instantly. I'll go through the rest of the post in more detail. (something you should try in the future)

 

[Windjammer]

So now you are irredeemably proved wrong, it doesn't matter
So pray, why have you been arguing about it in multiple posts? Like little children who don't get their toy and then say they didn't want it in the first place!!!
Your above statement caught my eye first so I replied instantly. I'll go through the rest of the post in more detail. (something you should try in the future)

You proved nothing until another member came to your assistance by posting KT blog, on the contrary it's been a long time since i flushed down your claim of (2) F-104s being shot down on the last day.
Even if Changezi was lost on the 17th December, the actual last encounter in air took place between an F-86 and a MIG-21 (IAF's Creme de la creme) hence the topic, so eat it buddy.

 

[deckingraj]

Though not very interested in this debate but have just few things for you....Rest i will leave it to the posters who have already locked their horns with u..

1) I am sorry but very bad example...The might forces of USA and USSR lost because of the gueralla war tactics used by Vietnam and AF...Their mighty forces were not trained to overhaul an invisible enemy...We all know what they did to whatever portion of force that was visible..

So yes there are not viable examples to the context of our discussion...I would ask you to think again on that front...


Rest i will leave it to the rest of the posters to reply....

 

[John Doe]

You proved nothing until another member came to your assistance by posting KT blog, on the contrary it's been a long time since i flushed down your claim of (2) F-104s being shot down on the last day.
Even if Changezi was lost on the 17th December, the actual last encounter in air took place between an F-86 and a MIG-21 (IAF's Creme de la creme) hence the topic, so eat it buddy.

You should have taken my advice of reading posts before replying. My very 1st post onwards, I have maintained that Dec 17th was a good day for the IAF too because of the Starfighter shootdowns.
Now what part of this do you not understand?
About me needing KT's blog, can you PLEASE look at the link 916 Starfighter
which I have posted twice BEFORE KT's blog was posted.

Ok, I must have missed your post where you proved me wrong LONG AGO about the 2 starfighters being shot down. Can you please give me the post #? Not any other data, just give me the post #. Just so you understand, just give me the post #, nothing else!

C'mon now, just read the posts before you make statements like these. Are you not concerned with accuracy at all? I can keep typing away on my phone and point out whenever you are wrong, but you are ruining this post completely. When you acknowledged that Changezi was shot down on Dec 17 and that RJAF jets were serving PAF by Dec 13, half of your posts automatically were invalidated. Just erase them and save newcomers the trouble of reading these posts.

 

[Windjammer]

Though not very interested in this debate but have just few things for you....Rest i will leave it to the posters who have already locked their horns with u..

1) I am sorry but very bad example...The might forces of USA and USSR lost because of the gueralla war tactics used by Vietnam and AF...Their mighty forces were not trained to overhaul an invisible enemy...We all know what they did to whatever portion of force that was visible..

So yes there are not viable examples to the context of our discussion...I would ask you to think again on that front...


Rest i will leave it to the rest of the posters to reply....

The fact is we are merely looking at flags rather than the contents, the fact that so many Indians have jumped on the band wagon repeating the same questions is an old ploy.

 

[deckingraj]

The fact is we are merely looking at flags rather than the contents, the fact that so many Indians have jumped on the band wagon repeating the same questions is an old ploy.

Nopes...not at all...I have been on this forum from some time and have seen similar threads from you in the past as well.....Also truth will not change no matter how many Indians ask you the same question...If you know what you are saying is correct then you should not be bothered about that...In fact you should look forward in debunking those questions and more the same questions being asked lesser the number of replies need to be typed....

So once again your analogy about USA - VIetnam and USSR-AF is not correct as per our context....Do you acknowledge that???

 

[IamINDIA]

i dont kno why we are still arguing about this, all ppl arguing should just turn hippies and embrace peace

 

[Windjammer]

Nopes...not at all...I have been on this forum from some time and have seen similar threads from you in the past as well.....Also truth will not change no matter how many Indians ask you the same question...If you know what you are saying is correct then you should not be bothered about that...In fact you should look forward in debunking those questions and more the same questions being asked lesser the number of replies need to be typed....

So once again your analogy about USA - VIetnam and USSR-AF is not correct as per our context....Do you acknowledge that???

Sorry, but i don't buy that. One could talk about more recent conflicts such as the Israelis who are well accustomed to guerrilla tactics and counter tactics and who reportedly rule the skies over Middle East were forced into a withdraw against Hezbollah.

 

[Windjammer]

You should have taken my advice of reading posts before replying. My very 1st post onwards, I have maintained that Dec 17th was a good day for the IAF too because of the Starfighter shootdowns.
Now what part of this do you not understand?
About me needing KT's blog, can you PLEASE look at the link 916 Starfighter
which I have posted twice BEFORE KT's blog was posted.

Ok, I must have missed your post where you proved me wrong LONG AGO about the 2 starfighters being shot down. Can you please give me the post #? Not any other data, just give me the post #. Just so you understand, just give me the post #, nothing else!

C'mon now, just read the posts before you make statements like these. Are you not concerned with accuracy at all? I can keep typing away on my phone and point out whenever you are wrong, but you are ruining this post completely. When you acknowledged that Changezi was shot down on Dec 17 and that RJAF jets were serving PAF by Dec 13, half of your posts automatically were invalidated. Just erase them and save newcomers the trouble of reading these posts.

One should first practice as what one preaches, I posted John Fricker's article for a purpose, which i again stressed in Post#88, if these were difficult for you to comprehend, then a highly respected member's Post#81 should have also stopped in your tracks.
I merely got mixed up with the dates just as you somewhere were attributing a post to me in ......2008 !!!. You see, one F-104 was lost soon after the war, where the PAF pilot ejected over the sea and could not be rescued. In any case, since you keep claiming 2 F-104s lost on the last day, perhaps you should move away from chest thumping on Changezi and enlighten us to the second F-104, which according to you was also shot down on the 17th Dec. As for the rest, let the MODS decide, who BTW are keeping an eye on this thread.

 

[sms]

Albeit you are repeating some one else's initive, however i will reply in kind.
USA, and USSR or Russia are both the super powers, yet both were humiliated in Vietnam and Afghanistan respectively, one could also argue as to why they didn't throw all their military might into their conflict. In related term, i am sure you know the difference between a withdraw and tactical retreat. As for PN, PAF had no maritime capability in 1971, however several missions were flown in support of the Navy. ( Check Table in Post#44. In any case the PN redeemed it'self by scoring first submarine kill since the second world war'
I also posed a question, where was IAF, (which was and still is somewhat 4 times larger than PAF) when PAF boldly conducted daring daylight raids on Pathankot and Utterlai, also when Mukerian railyards full of arm and ammo trains, was attacked and devastated to such effect that the IA had to postpone it's efforts in the designated areas.

The above example should suffice.
Here is a classical saying, there is no difference in, beaten after being dragged or beaten and then dragged, the debater has indulged into a ridiculous argument, albeit i acknowledged that Changezi was shot down, however my understanding was that he was KIA earlier in the war, but does it really matter except to raise the banter.
The IAF accounts lists places of engagements mostly over India, in which it claimed, 6 PAF Mirages and 9 F-104s being shot down, the first claim was soon shot down as PAF assembled and lined up all it's
Mirages soon after the war, even without this, let me ask you and other Indian members, with the exception of some grainy shots of F-86s being shot down, what credible evidence has the IAF come up to back it's claims on the Mirages and F-104s ?? no gun camera shots, no wreckage photos or detail of serial numbers.
Lastly, like other member, i don't just merely resort to Google for fact finding missions, some resources i can disclose while others are close to my heart.

Thanks for your reply, I did not get all question answered or replies are some what irrelevant. But it doesn't matter, I'll let you and other members continue to debate.

What I've conclude here that on that day both AF (proud) had their kills and both can feel proud. But there is no need to boast it.

Cheers

 

[John Doe]

'Merely mixed up' with the dates, he says. For the last 101 posts, no less. Bottomline, you were wrong. Fess up at this instant.

In any case, since you keep claiming 2 F-104s lost on the last day, perhaps you should move away from chest thumping on Changezi and enlighten us to the second F-104, which according to you was also shot down on the 17th Dec.

We just read all the Harry Potter books, and you now want to know who Voldemort is!
My brother, have you at least TRIED my initial posts and the links I keep posting? Just try it, won't hurt, pinkie promise

Moreover, I see no sense in going over my points again. Deckingraj, Honour and Indiarocks completely demolished your identical agruments some 6 months ago. Even then you did the same 'cow waste-matter' you did in this post;viz., forward Fricker's article, quote PC Lal and his page numbers and most foolishly, refuse to admit that RJAF jets flew in combat in '71.

Fulcrum very nicely posted Tufail's blog which even you could not dismiss. "Bad luck for you, good luck for me"(from Godfather, part 1)


I am not surprised if the mods are indeed watching, in light of your unnecessary offer:

"She's(Sunita) more interested in my actions than words, I would post you some footage but then, it may bring tears to your eyes. "

They would no doubt want to keep this forum viewable by all age groups

Since you seem to be enjoying receiving this daily drubbing even more than me dishing it to you, the chances are I might get bored before you. I hope that you will understand if I don't react to anything less than Grade A,Extra Large, Family-Pack size foolishness from you in the days to come.
Keepin it real in da 'hood,
J-dawgg!

 

[deckingraj]

Sorry, but i don't buy that. One could talk about more recent conflicts such as the Israelis who are well accustomed to guerrilla tactics and counter tactics and who reportedly rule the skies over Middle East were forced into a withdraw against Hezbollah.

Wrong sir..but these are your views so i have no problems there....As far as i ma concerned there are many reasons to leave a conflict....if the collateral is not worth the results one withdraw that does not mean the other party loose...However if i want to argue the other way i can say a party loose if they failed to achieve their objective...Anyhow guerrilla warfare debate is very subjective because the definition of victory is not clear....Having said that it is not relevant to our discussion because neither India resorted to it and nor Pakistan..... So once again my claim is that it is very hard to loose a battle if you have Air Dominance.....For the context of our discussion can you think of an example excluding guerrilla warfare???

 

[Windjammer]

'Merely mixed up' with the dates, he says. For the last 101 posts, no less. Bottomline, you were wrong. Fess up at this instant.

Nopes, you would like others to believe such, since you conclude that i couldn't have mixed up the dates on a 40 year old history, well here is a present day example set by none other than your bewildered soul.
Post#75.

Another 2008 post by WJ

and shooting your self in the foot yet again in Post#77.

Now upon a second look, your reply is from 12-3-09.

. Now folks, decide for your self as all can see that I joined this forum in November 09, six months after JD is falsely claiming. I guess we are dealing with a mixed up mind. See buddy, it's easily done. Now, eat your words before further embarrassing your self.

We just read all the Harry Potter books, and you now want to know who Voldemort is!
My brother, have you at least TRIED my initial posts and the links I keep posting? Just try it, won't hurt, pinkie promise

And this is all we get,

Flt Lt Aruna Kumar Datta shot down one Starfighter over Nayachor and Flt Lt Nitin Gajanan Junnarkar shot the other ill-fated PAF jet. Merely names of IAF pilots without as much as a reference
17 Dec 71 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 F/L Niraj Kukreja Nayachor 9 sqn (RJAF)
17 Dec 71 F-104A (s/n 56-787) MiG-21FL 29 F/L AK.Datta Nayachor F/L Samad Changezi (9 sqn) / KIA

Hell hath and no fury, we have names of the IAF Pilots and the often documented PAF loss, without the benefit of a reference or link, again great going JD. You should indeed stick to just reading Harry Potter.!

Moreover, I see no sense in going over my points again.

I for once agree with you, since so far you have made no sense but just cheap banter as in following !

Deckingraj, Honour and Indiarocks completely demolished your identical agruments some 6 months ago. Even then you did the same 'cow waste-matter' you did in this post;viz., forward Fricker's article, quote PC Lal and his page numbers and most foolishly, refuse to admit that RJAF jets flew in combat in '71.

Trouble reading, me and Growler put their minds to a well earned rest, and let me remind you once again, the war happened 40 years earlier, the actual history never appears in newer versions as you are exposed to besides who better than you to comment on "Cow waste matter".

Fulcrum very nicely posted Tufail's blog which even you could not dismiss. "Bad luck for you, good luck for me"(from Godfather, part 1)

"Don't focus on the pointing finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory" (Enter The Dragon), Isn't it ironic, Tufail (A Pakistani) has an Indian fan club, but some one like John Fricker (Acknowledged Historian) blows your candle out. Ironically elsewhere on this forum, a thread has appeared, where members are pointing out discrepancies in Tufail's bloggs, hence the source of RJAF F-104 is proving controversial, suffice to say, that's bad luck for you.

I am not surprised if the mods are indeed watching, in light of your unnecessary offer:

They would no doubt want to keep this forum viewable by all age groups

And more than that, they would want the trollers on their way to Afbanistan.!!

1:Now a request from someone who is a minimum of 10 years older than you.
2:are you just visiting U.K. or have you spent some years there? I always thought they spoke English well.
3:When you recommended that we read the book'My life in the IAF', did you follow your own advice? Have you read it or even seen it in real life?
3:
Talking about New Year, why are you still at home working on your super intelligent retorts? No partying with the ladies tonight? It must be 9.30 pm in UK now(assuming your flag is real).

I am sure the MODS wouldn't also miss all this narrative, which you so excitedly contributed to the topic.

Since you seem to be enjoying receiving this daily drubbing even more than me dishing it to you, the chances are I might get bored before you. I hope that you will understand if I don't react to anything less than Grade A,Extra Large, Family-Pack size foolishness from you in the days to come.
Keepin it real in da 'hood,
J-dawgg!

I am actually loving it, how other Indian members are jumping in to save their country fellow from further tread marks on the nose. It seems, sending PMs is repeating history however, the cool vibes would sound meaning full if you weren't spitting sand. And next time, before you jump into your imaginary pool of puddles, wave high and whisper to the hallow wind.

 

[aakash_2410]

Guess what? Historians have something else to say.

After the initial preemptive strike, PAF adopted a defensive stance in response to the Indian retaliation. As the war progressed, the Indian Air Force continued to battle the PAF over conflict zones,[40] but the number of sorties flown by the PAF gradually decreased day-by-day.[41] The Indian Air Force flew 4,000 sorties while its counterpart, the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel.[4] This lack of retaliation has also been attributed to the deliberate decision of the PAF High Command to cut its losses as it had already incurred huge losses in the conflict.[42] The PAF also did not intervene during the Indian Navy's raid on Pakistani naval port city of Karachi.
That's west pakistan right?
In the east, the small air contingent of Pakistan Air Force No. 14 Sqn was destroyed, putting the Dhaka airfield out of commission and resulting in Indian air superiority in the east.