Last Air Battle On This Day

[John Doe]

Till somebody comes up with a scan of that page from PAF's official history.. I cant back it up either..

from Jagan mohan's data.
2 Mig-21's were lost in the east.. 6 in the west.. of which 2 are operational accidents.. that leaves 4 Mig-21's.. 1 is confirmed A2A..
leaves 3.. if Amir shariff's kill is taken.. that is 2 Mig-21's lost to AAA.

If you look at Jagan's table, it states that 1 was lost to F/L Maqsood Amir, 2 were lost accidently(incl.one self-goal), and the remaining 3 Mig 21s to AAA.These 3 were shot down in Pakistan naturally.
So this mention of Amir Shariff is a twist in the tale, does the official PAF list of IAF losses mention him?

@WINDJAMMER:
I have proof of the destruction of 5 F-104s and 5 Mirages on the last day of the war, presented to you in a Post-Modern, Cubist-Revisionist painting (Since you believe that paintings are clinching evidence).
If you think I am making this up, you Quote "should make an effort to prove it wrong rather than merely running in circles of denial"Unquote. Let me join you in the movement to free us from common sense, truth, decency, civility, and basic burden of proof!

Here is the proof!

. :

 

[SQ8]

yup.. he is..mentioned there.
and verified by an extremely methodical gentleman..
it is possible..
that this could be a joint kill..
crippled jet.. shot down by AAA..
still.. its speculation till a story on this comes out.

 

[John Doe]

Like someone wrote in an earlier post, between the claims and admissions of the IAF and the PAF, the truth is somewhere in between

I will be buying Jagan's book on the '65 war this summer when I head home for the holidays. I hope his book on the '71 war is out by then. Hope to have more knowledge of these events then.

BTW, thanks for being an excellent moderator

 

[Windjammer]

If you look at Jagan's table, it states that 1 was lost to F/L Maqsood Amir, 2 were lost accidently(incl.one self-goal), and the remaining 3 Mig 21s to AAA.These 3 were shot down in Pakistan naturally.
So this mention of Amir Shariff is a twist in the tale, does the official PAF list of IAF losses mention him?

@WINDJAMMER:
I have proof of the destruction of 5 F-104s and 5 Mirages on the last day of the war, presented to you in a Post-Modern, Cubist-Revisionist painting (Since you believe that paintings are clinching evidence).
If you think I am making this up, you Quote "should make an effort to prove it wrong rather than merely running in circles of denial"Unquote. Let me join you in the movement to free us from common sense, truth, decency, civility, and basic burden of proof!

Here is the proof!

. :

Yup, this is the difference, I am talking history, while you are indulging in games. Apart from prominent discrepancies in your example, the paramount fact is that unlike the 5 F-104s and 5 Mirages, a MIG-21 was indeed shot down by an F-86 on the last day of the war, this shoot down was claimed by the PAF and accepted by the IAF. In relative terms an acknowledged kill. Now, will posting irrelevant images make this victory more authentic. ? No.!!!! Like any fighter plane, the PAF aircraft captured the kills on their gun cameras. Case closed.
As far as the credibility of the paintings is concerned, one only needs to be a little observant to see the comparison. The artist mostly uses gun camera photos, pilot's accounts and wingman's reports to create the image on canvas and in this case paid special attention to the canopy ejection sequence. See if you can observe any such similarities with the second image of the gun camera photo.

 

[SQ8]

Interesting.. I thought the kill was made using a Aim-9.. seems to be a little discrepancy in the painting as I still see both heatseekers on the rails.
Or was the loadout 4 Aim-9's..??
In any case.. It is idiocy on part of the Mig pilot.. on not using his strengths in the vertical.. and acceleration to bring this jet down...and a fine example of GCI.
Considerering this was Maqsood Amir's 3rd or 4th sortie... it is quite an achievement.
It also shows.. that in times of war.. how easy it is.. for relatively inexperienced pilots to bring down a superior enemy over their territory..and vice versa.. for very experienced pilots.. like Sarfaraz Rafiqui or the previously mentioned IAF top gun sq to be brought down over an enemy territory.

 

[Areesh]

@Areesh : If i were you i will stay away from the discussion unless and until i have provided some facts backed up by proofs to debunk claims, even if it means collecting data from previous posts and sharing it here for the benefits of others.

so once again people shall we give it a try???

And Is John Doe's full of facts and proofs that I should keep myself away or were they a mixture of idiocy and fallacy. Even in response to WJ's post about F-86 gun camera he responded with a pathetic question and one wreckage of alleged F-04 which WJ asked for more than two weeks ago. Obviously it was a pathetic attempt of face saving which John Doe did after WJ's post. Even his last post was based on facts borrowed from other members plus one picture which was a idiotic attempt of being sarcastic.

Any ways let's see if he could refute WJ with some facts or would continue to asking dumb questions!!!

 

[deckingraj]

And Is John Doe's full of facts and proofs that I should keep myself away or were they a mixture of idiocy and fallacy. Even in response to WJ's post about F-86 gun camera he responded with a pathetic question and one wreckage of alleged F-04 which WJ asked for more than two weeks ago. Obviously it was a pathetic attempt of face saving which John Doe did after WJ's post. Even his last post was based on facts borrowed from other members plus one picture which was a idiotic attempt of being sarcastic.

Any ways let's see if he could refute WJ with some facts or would continue to asking dumb questions!!!

With all due respect you are not the official spokesperson of Windjammer and neither am I....All i am saying is that if you want to get into the discussion than do that but back it with facts....rather than getting into war of words.....Saying John asked dumb questions is not a good strategy....In fact i believe his questions are very valid but then that's my view...It is not appropriate for me to say that those who are challenging John are dumb, if i want to say something like that i should provide facts/reasons/proofs for that...I cannot(or a bit lazy) so i am keeping off from the discussion....Hope you get where i am coming from....