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Last Air Battle On This Day

So basically even you dont know who 'you' are!

Rafi's resolution for the New Year: "Find out who my ancestors are......":confused:

After ur low life kinda posts........ its very hard to determine who ur ancestors really are!
MODS:mod:
 
Indians talk about democracy and freedom but I think their country is a gaint isolated propaganda house like North Korea. Indians are really disconnected form the real world information.
 
1. Seems you are reading right out of your self serving history prospective, The air war in the Western Sector was a different ball game, the PAF strategy was to fight from the West for East, hence it remained offensive through out the conflict.
2.The IAF claim of flying 4000 sorties was of little achievement when compared to PAF's effort of flying over 3000 in the same period (See Table). Now it doesn't take an historian to conclude, that for an Air Force possessing almost four times the quantity, it's a poor show of deliverance. Keep also in mind that at least three PAF Squadron were not even utilized as they were being conserved for long battles ahead.
3.Albeit the PAF at the time didn't possess any maritime facility, it none the less made every effort to counter the menace of the Indian Styx missile boats, however on the night of 5 December, through a single B-57 raid on Okha naval base, PAF scored direct bomb hits on Fuel and Ammo damps and the missile boat jetty. Such attacks on Pakistan Naval installations ceased after this daring raid.
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Most people like to live in their own petty world, almost conviniently ignoring the crude facts about 1971... Pakistan lost that battle. One of the major causes for Pakistan's loss of territory in the west was its lack of air superiority over the IAF. This becomes evident if we study the longewala battle where Hunter's pounded tank after tank and there was no air cover from PAF. The plight of PAF becomes evident that this scenario remained for over two days until the PA ran on its head ... back towards Islamabad.

As for your antics

1. There was only one squadron placed in East which didnt make many sorties.Dont know what kind of maths you are using while making the statement about PAF being offensive in the Western sector.

2. Do you have any evidence of IAF using all its squadrons of airplanes or are you just shooting from our back side. India is a much bigger country than Pakistan and common sense suggests that she wouldnt have pressed all her might in service.

3. We all know of Karachi buring for three days, so lets cut the crap.

There is nothing bad about dreaming , but it will be good if you dream about future and not past.
 
Stay on topic, the PAF has always dominated the IAF:)
 
the indians were even using anglo officers in their ranks to fly their planes!! PAF wasn't

the F-6s were inducted in somewhat substantial numbers as the war was already taking place; while we received no spares or support for the western aircrafts

soviets were liberally arming you to the teeth; we received no such support

indians failed to get any form of air supremacy over the western sector skies......E Pak (Bangladesh) had one (1) squadron and those guys put up hell of a resistance to the aggressors even as their colleagues were being slaughtered by hindu mukti bahini terrorists


and again --- even though an important lesson was learned (promote synergy amongst 3 armed services) it is beyond idiotic for some nooB like you who knows ZILCH about military to linking land force to air force role.

30mm cannons on an F-6 wouldnt stop the enemy from funding and sending terrorists and sabateurs to Bangladesh. In retrospect, those 30mm cannons could have torn through flesh instead of your Migs and hunters; but that would constitute a real excess. Our men were ordered to withdraw, and they followed the order --regardless of whether they wanted to die fighting till the last bullet. I actually commend them for their restraint!

All lies !
Read the first post again - Mig 21 was shot down by a MISSILE - no guns, no cannons etc. Indian Mig21s had very inferior missile capability in 1971 while the PAF used Sidewinders on F-86s.
Please Check facts before Comments.
 
Abu Zolfiqar
the indians were even using anglo officers in their ranks to fly their planes!! PAF wasn't


Writing this comment is his biggest blunder actually. Anglo-Indians are 100% Indian, of course. The irony here being that even the PAF had some Anglo-Indians flying for them such as Cecil Chaudhary and Mervyn Middlecoat.

Even more ironic is that PAF even had a bunch of airman from Poland in it's ranks. I found this list on PakDef forums:
Air Cdre Turowicz and Sq/Ldr Zuromski, but there were many others.

Adler Wilhelm
Augustynowicz Wladyslaw
ft. ltn. Banach Waclaw
ft.ltn Berezowski Franciszek
ft. ltn. Dudek Stanislaw
ft. ltn. Dobrzanski Wiktor
ft. ltn. Franczak Henryk
Gajewski Eugeniusz Emil
ft.ltn Gluba Alfons
Haczkiewicz Tadeusz
sq. ldr Hedinger Przemyslaw
Jablonski Zygmunt
sq. ldr Jedryszek Antoni Zbigniew
ft.ltn. Kaczmarek Bolesław Jan
Karol Witold
Klos Piotr
Kolesza Michal
Kondrat Antoni
Korczowski Jozef
Krupowicz Konstanty
sq. ldr Kossakowski Zbigniew Jerzy
Kozak Kazimierz
ft. ltn. Kozik Roman
Krupowicz Konstanty
Kudlinski Henryk
Kulagin Michal
Kurowski Stanisław Marian
Leis Kazimierz
ft. ltn. Maczulski
ft. ltn. Malinowski Bronisław
Michalak (Matthews) Marian
sq.ldr Mikulski Jan Z.
Miller Stanislaw
Muszynski Mieczyslaw
Pianko Bronislaw
Polek Antoni Franciszek
Południak Tadeusz Alojzy
ft.ltn Sienkiewicz Karol
ft. ltn Sokół – Szahin Bohdan Longin Adolf
ft. ltn Susz Stanislaw (Stanley) Karol
ft.ltn Tronczynski Stefan Wladyslaw
air cdre Turowicz Wladyslaw
ft. ltn Wolanski Mieczyslaw
Zapasnik Czeslaw
sq.ldr Zuromski Julian M.


So AZ, you owe and apology to the brave Anglo-Indians who flew for the PAF and even gave up their lives.
 
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we love and salute all who fight for our nation, don't forget that indian:)
 
actually indians can,t digest the truth.....
they celebrate victory and according to them every thing is fair in love and war ...
but when ever any thing bad happens on their side they weep before whole world and present themselves as innocent as child and PAKISTAN as rascal and looser.
but facts are facts t, what they claim about PAKISTAN actually present in them.........
 
Abu Zolfiqar
the indians were even using anglo officers in their ranks to fly their planes!! PAF wasn't


Writing this comment is his biggest blunder actually. Anglo-Indians are 100% Indian, of course. The irony here being that even the PAF had some Anglo-Indians flying for them such as Cecil Chaudhary and Mervyn Middlecoat.

Even more ironic is that PAF even had a bunch of airman from Poland in it's ranks. I found this list on PakDef forums:
Air Cdre Turowicz and Sq/Ldr Zuromski, but there were many others.

Adler Wilhelm
Augustynowicz Wladyslaw
ft. ltn. Banach Waclaw
ft.ltn Berezowski Franciszek
ft. ltn. Dudek Stanislaw
ft. ltn. Dobrzanski Wiktor
ft. ltn. Franczak Henryk
Gajewski Eugeniusz Emil
ft.ltn Gluba Alfons
Haczkiewicz Tadeusz
sq. ldr Hedinger Przemyslaw
Jablonski Zygmunt
sq. ldr Jedryszek Antoni Zbigniew
ft.ltn. Kaczmarek Bolesław Jan
Karol Witold
Klos Piotr
Kolesza Michal
Kondrat Antoni
Korczowski Jozef
Krupowicz Konstanty
sq. ldr Kossakowski Zbigniew Jerzy
Kozak Kazimierz
ft. ltn. Kozik Roman
Krupowicz Konstanty
Kudlinski Henryk
Kulagin Michal
Kurowski Stanisław Marian
Leis Kazimierz
ft. ltn. Maczulski
ft. ltn. Malinowski Bronisław
Michalak (Matthews) Marian
sq.ldr Mikulski Jan Z.
Miller Stanislaw
Muszynski Mieczyslaw
Pianko Bronislaw
Polek Antoni Franciszek
Południak Tadeusz Alojzy
ft.ltn Sienkiewicz Karol
ft. ltn Sokół – Szahin Bohdan Longin Adolf
ft. ltn Susz Stanislaw (Stanley) Karol
ft.ltn Tronczynski Stefan Wladyslaw
air cdre Turowicz Wladyslaw
ft. ltn Wolanski Mieczyslaw
Zapasnik Czeslaw
sq.ldr Zuromski Julian M.


So AZ, you owe and apology to the brave Anglo-Indians who flew for the PAF and even gave up their lives.

by the way correct me if i am wrong. in 1971 poland was part of USSR. so how it can be ???????????????????
 
Most people like to live in their own petty world, almost conviniently ignoring the crude facts about 1971... Pakistan lost that battle. One of the major causes for Pakistan's loss of territory in the west was its lack of air superiority over the IAF. This becomes evident if we study the longewala battle where Hunter's pounded tank after tank and there was no air cover from PAF. The plight of PAF becomes evident that this scenario remained for over two days until the PA ran on its head ... back towards Islamabad.
Seems some characters thriving in their puddles would also have us believe of their Pool privileges, one could question the credibility of your large air arm, when PAF conducted daring day light raids on Utterlai and Pathankot and where was IAF when train loads of armour at Mukerian Rail yards just south of Pathankot were so effectively destroyed that your war lords had to change their war plans.
As for your antics

1. There was only one squadron placed in East which didnt make many sorties.Dont know what kind of maths you are using while making the statement about PAF being offensive in the Western sector.
Firstly you people are only too well known for being the drama queens, as for the topic, the single squadron in Eastern sector was grounded within 48 hours due to runway damage, but none the less bagged 11 Indian aircraft in air combat including two of your top notch MIG-21s.
2. Do you have any evidence of IAF using all its squadrons of airplanes or are you just shooting from our back side. India is a much bigger country than Pakistan and common sense suggests that she wouldnt have pressed all her might in service.
Any one talking from their back side will no doubt make better sense than your pathetic judgement of my comments. As you blather, India being in quantitative advantage may not have used all it's resources, but what was really ironic is the fact that the PAF being one fourth the size of it's adversary, still didn't utilize at least three of it's squadrons, hence the nucleus of my argument .
3. We all know of Karachi buring for three days, so lets cut the crap.
After which, Okha naval base burnt for two days, so save it.
There is nothing bad about dreaming , but it will be good if you dream about future and not past.
And i suggest, you read, "My days with the IAF" written by ACM P C Lal, it may just be a wake up call for some one living in denial.
 
Seems some characters thriving in their puddles would also have us believe of their Pool privileges, one could question the credibility of your large air arm, when PAF conducted daring day light raids on Utterlai and Pathankot and where was IAF when train loads of armour at Mukerian Rail yards just south of Pathankot were so effectively destroyed that your war lords had to change their war plans. Firstly you people are only too well known for being the drama queens, as for the topic, the single squadron in Eastern sector was grounded within 48 hours due to runway damage, but none the less bagged 11 Indian aircraft in air combat including two of your top notch MIG-21s.
Any one talking from their back side will no doubt make better sense than your pathetic judgement of my comments. As you blather, India being in quantitative advantage may not have used all it's resources, but what was really ironic is the fact that the PAF being one fourth the size of it's adversary, still didn't utilize at least three of it's squadrons, hence the nucleus of my argument . After which, Okha naval base burnt for two days, so save it.
And i suggest, you read, "My days with the IAF" written by ACM P C Lal, it may just be a wake up call for some one living in denial.

All I expect from you is a logical reasoning behind your conclusions (which I cant seem to find). For e.g how you equate bombing raids as equivalent to the air superiority of PAF over IAF. I hate to say this again and again but I dont know when will you understand that the IA wouldnt have gained any ground in the western sector had IAF not gained a substantial aerial advantage ( if not superiority).

Will be great if you can provide examples where one's air force has been badly routed by the opposition but still they have won the actual war. If you cant find any then please think about why is such the case.

Wouldnt waste my time trying to counter your illogical arguments. If your reasoning makes perfect sense for you then its good for you , just hoping that for once you will try and think beyond the books and the raw data. ( for e.g you are talking about PAF not using its 3 squadrons , which can be for many reasons like lack of spares and human resources. I guess you wouldnt have gone into those details. You have just mentioned that PAF wanted to save these for future conflicts. (Will be great if you can give me an official source for the same.) Am quite sure that this kind of thing cannot exist as many heads will roll if the PAF is "SAVING" its squadrons when the enemy is dominating the battle. Dont you find it strange why PAF will save its sqaudrons when there was an acute need of aerial power in the Rajasthan sector?

Wont argue anymore , go figure out for yourself the in-depth answers to these questions.
 
All I expect from you is a logical reasoning behind your conclusions (which I cant seem to find). For e.g how you equate bombing raids as equivalent to the air superiority of PAF over IAF. I hate to say this again and again but I dont know when will you understand that the IA wouldnt have gained any ground in the western sector had IAF not gained a substantial aerial advantage ( if not superiority).

Will be great if you can provide examples where one's air force has been badly routed by the opposition but still they have won the actual war. If you cant find any then please think about why is such the case.

Wouldnt waste my time trying to counter your illogical arguments. If your reasoning makes perfect sense for you then its good for you , just hoping that for once you will try and think beyond the books and the raw data. ( for e.g you are talking about PAF not using its 3 squadrons , which can be for many reasons like lack of spares and human resources. I guess you wouldnt have gone into those details. You have just mentioned that PAF wanted to save these for future conflicts. (Will be great if you can give me an official source for the same.) Am quite sure that this kind of thing cannot exist as many heads will roll if the PAF is "SAVING" its squadrons when the enemy is dominating the battle. Dont you find it strange why PAF will save its sqaudrons when there was an acute need of aerial power in the Rajasthan sector?

Wont argue anymore , go figure out for yourself the in-depth answers to these questions.

DG, now why you would ask for 'logical reasoning' and actual examples and facts from WJ is beyond me.

What you should actually ask him for is the opening line of 'My life in the IAF' which he strongly recommends that you read. Just so that you and I can compare it with our copy:azn:
 
All I expect from you is a logical reasoning behind your conclusions (which I cant seem to find). For e.g how you equate bombing raids as equivalent to the air superiority of PAF over IAF. I hate to say this again and again but I dont know when will you understand that the IA wouldnt have gained any ground in the western sector had IAF not gained a substantial aerial advantage ( if not superiority).

Will be great if you can provide examples where one's air force has been badly routed by the opposition but still they have won the actual war. If you cant find any then please think about why is such the case.

Wouldnt waste my time trying to counter your illogical arguments. If your reasoning makes perfect sense for you then its good for you , just hoping that for once you will try and think beyond the books and the raw data. ( for e.g you are talking about PAF not using its 3 squadrons , which can be for many reasons like lack of spares and human resources. I guess you wouldnt have gone into those details. You have just mentioned that PAF wanted to save these for future conflicts. (Will be great if you can give me an official source for the same.) Am quite sure that this kind of thing cannot exist as many heads will roll if the PAF is "SAVING" its squadrons when the enemy is dominating the battle. Dont you find it strange why PAF will save its sqaudrons when there was an acute need of aerial power in the Rajasthan sector?

Wont argue anymore , go figure out for yourself the in-depth answers to these questions.
Since you are adopting a civilized manner, you will receive a reply in kind. Here is an article posted to me some times earlier covering the PAF's prospective in the 1971 war, it was written by a well known aviation historian, the late John Fricker, you and the fan boy can read it to your heart's content, but i would like to see the Indian side of story analysed by other than an Indian author. You see in post war scenario, the IAF was adamant in it's reluctance to open it's log book and entries to any international observers.
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Since you seem to be in constant denial, as you can witness, the GOI is not exactly snow white when it comes to telling the truth, in fact it excels in propaganda Inguinaty.

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I guessing this is your SOP: Instead of replying to the actual question , write / scan a bunch of information.

So let me once again ask you : When you recommended that we read the book'My life in the IAF', did you follow your own advice? Have you read it or even seen it in real life? In this very forum, another member clearly called your bluff on this matter, didn't he?

DG asked you for an example "where one's air force has been badly routed by the opposition but still they have won the actual war."

Next he asked you for a source for saying PAF wanted to save three squadrons for future conflicts.

Are these questions answered here? I asked you a few questions too,never got a reply either. Got a whole lot of something else though!
 

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