Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[Slav Defence]

awww.....out without deal...how shameful

 

[Windjammer]

suddenly ToI become credible source...... lol

Well, didn't they break the news of the withdraw in the first place......it seemed credible to all then. !!

 

[Srinivas]

You still think that it was a straightforward confrontation, the PLA wanted to be aggressive, the IA stood up manfully to their bullying tactics, and the PLA scampered off like a little puppy dog?

I thought you were stupid, I don't realise how stupid.

The Chinese didn't think that there would be a shooting . They were conveying a message, just the way they did in 62. Only last time, we didn't get it. This time, we got it, and agreed to a mutual withdrawal.

Now that we know that they're seriously annoyed, and have come to a deal with them, the matter is back on the front burner. And we are going to be extra inoffensive, exactly when they need us to be extra inoffensive.

It's simple. Except to the stupid.

Are you scared Mr @Joe Shearer ??

Your interpretation of Chinese message, I feel is some what wrong.

Prior to this standoff Chinese approached India with a border deal, But India said wait since the deal is not acceptable for India. In order to force India to accept the deal Chinese are trying to bully India by these incursions.

even after the standoff is over, India is denying the border deal with China. GOI knows the best here.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/no-d...dia-despite-end-of-border-dispute-756853.html


The reason for India to not go into any border arrangement is simple, Chinese have built up their infrastructure and military on their side, India needs to do that before going to talks.Now that our economy is doing well in the past decade the up gradation of Indo-Tibet border is going on.

Who cares whether Chinese are annoyed or not...!!!, see the big picture the game with China always involves USA, Japan and India.

Chinese are never going to accept Arunachal Pradesh as a part of India, The recent statement of Xi Xingping "that Chinese will not swallow bitter pill" confirms that.

Neither India is going to give up on any territories, Chinese only want temporary peace with India so that they can finish off the bullying in SCS and East sea. Then it will be India's turn.
In this scenario it is better to work with countries like Japan, Vietnam etc and enter some defense agreement with them.And also build credible deterrence so that we can make them pay for any incursion.

India is only defending its borders and we are not annoying any one here, it is the Chinese who are annoying every neighbor of them and are implementing their forward policy.

Going by the words of Chinese official spokesperson

In Beijing, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswomen Hua Chunying said, “Following the stand-off incident at the border area, China and India with the larger interests of bilateral relations in mind have taken a cooperative and constructive attitude”.

Don't you think China is back tracking in the sense now they realized Bilateral trade which is close to 75 Billion is more important , than these stupid incursions??

It is China that is annoying us not viceversa.

 

[DARIUS]

Pakistanis and their false flagging and their delusion,jealousy and complexes sometimes makes me wonder whether they would ever be able to come out of this slumber!!

 

[ExtraOdinary]

How India played hardball with China


NEW DELHI: After initial diffidence and a sense of confusion, India had to play diplomatic hardball to get China to withdraw its troops from Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, which officials claimed was secured without giving any concessions to China, even though New Delhi has agreed to bring down a structure that was erected as "retaliation" to the Chinese incursion.

After the withdrawal, Indian and Chinese officials are expected to meet in the next few days under the rubric of the working mechanism to work out a new set of operating procedures along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC). "We will discuss peace and tranquillity on the LAC," said officials.

As flag meetings failed to resolve the face-off which happened after Chinese troops pitched tents in the area, the government decided to abandon a soft approach to China, said officials. In Beijing, Indian ambassador S Jaishankar impressed on the Chinese that not only was India ready to cancel the visit of foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Beijing, it was also willing to cancel the visit of the Chinese premier Li Keqiang to New Delhi on May 20.

The political initiative to take a harder stand was led by defence minister AK Antony, while foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai worked with the army chief to ensure that the Chinese understood that India was ready to escalate matters, if necessary. In the cabinet meetings, it was Antony's voice that carried the government opinion. Both PM and foreign minister Salman Khurshid had taken a much softer approach.

India insisted Beijing withdraw because they had violated a 2005 protocol. Within the government there were those who were worried about an escalation. However, India apparently had a precedent - in 2002, the NDA government had tackled a similar situation at Barahauti in the middle sector with a tough stand.

India, however, may be ready to agree to a Chinese demand to negotiate a new mechanism on border management. This was a demand by the PLA in response to India's border build-up. India was reluctant earlier but as a result of the standoff, negotiations on this may start, said sources. However, Antony is believed to be reluctant to go down that path.

While the high level visits are still on, the government has now lost the enthusiasm for the Chinese premier's visit. It will go through, and it is important because this is the first overseas visit of the new premier. But with the Depsang incident fresh in their minds, the Indian government will find it difficult to go the extra mile for this relationship just now.

The MEA spokesperson said on Monday that India and China have agreed to restore status quo ante along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the Western Sector of the India-China boundary as it existed prior to 15 April, 2013. While the Chinese side took down their tents, the Indians retreated from the face-off position. In addition, India agreed to bring down a structure that was built on April 20 as part of the trade-off with the Chinese troops.

"There was no deal," said sources. "There is nothing that will stop our efforts to improve infrastructure on the border." The government is taking credit for getting the Chinese to withdraw within three weeks while it took about seven years to get them out during the Wangdung crisis at Sumdurong Chu in Arunachal Pradesh.

Army sources said, it would have to "open" more access routes to the table-top plateau at Depsang Bulge, which became the face-off site between rival troops at an altitude of 16,300-feet.

After the Chinese intrusion 19-km deep into Indian territory on April 15, ITBP and Army troops had to stop their patrolling of the sector on the two available routes going through the Depsang plains and leading up to the strategically-located Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and Karakoram Pass to the north.

The Chinese move, as earlier reported by TOI, threatened to cut off access to almost 750 sq km area in northern Ladakh since the Depsang plains are the only flat open land needed for accessibility to the region. ``We will have to slowly open more access routes to the region as well as step up coordinated patrolling with ITBP. If one access route gets blocked, then the others can be used," said an officer.

The military also thinks there will also be the need to build more forward observation posts and other infrastructure in the region, both for surveillance as well as sustaining long-range patrols. China, which itself has bolstered its military infrastructure along the LAC in a major way for well over two decades now, will obviously not be happy with it.

India's re-activation of the DBO, Fukche and Nyoma advanced landing grounds and construction of some posts along the Line of Actual Control as well as troop reinforcements in Ladakh over the last five to six years has proved to be a major irritant for China.

How India played hardball with China - The Times of India

 

[danger007]

How India played hardball with China


NEW DELHI: After initial diffidence and a sense of confusion, India had to play diplomatic hardball to get China to withdraw its troops from Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, which officials claimed was secured without giving any concessions to China, even though New Delhi has agreed to bring down a structure that was erected as "retaliation" to the Chinese incursion.

After the withdrawal, Indian and Chinese officials are expected to meet in the next few days under the rubric of the working mechanism to work out a new set of operating procedures along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC). "We will discuss peace and tranquillity on the LAC," said officials.

As flag meetings failed to resolve the face-off which happened after Chinese troops pitched tents in the area, the government decided to abandon a soft approach to China, said officials. In Beijing, Indian ambassador S Jaishankar impressed on the Chinese that not only was India ready to cancel the visit of foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Beijing, it was also willing to cancel the visit of the Chinese premier Li Keqiang to New Delhi on May 20.

The political initiative to take a harder stand was led by defence minister AK Antony, while foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai worked with the army chief to ensure that the Chinese understood that India was ready to escalate matters, if necessary. In the cabinet meetings, it was Antony's voice that carried the government opinion. Both PM and foreign minister Salman Khurshid had taken a much softer approach.

India insisted Beijing withdraw because they had violated a 2005 protocol. Within the government there were those who were worried about an escalation. However, India apparently had a precedent - in 2002, the NDA government had tackled a similar situation at Barahauti in the middle sector with a tough stand.

India, however, may be ready to agree to a Chinese demand to negotiate a new mechanism on border management. This was a demand by the PLA in response to India's border build-up. India was reluctant earlier but as a result of the standoff, negotiations on this may start, said sources. However, Antony is believed to be reluctant to go down that path.

While the high level visits are still on, the government has now lost the enthusiasm for the Chinese premier's visit. It will go through, and it is important because this is the first overseas visit of the new premier. But with the Depsang incident fresh in their minds, the Indian government will find it difficult to go the extra mile for this relationship just now.

The MEA spokesperson said on Monday that India and China have agreed to restore status quo ante along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the Western Sector of the India-China boundary as it existed prior to 15 April, 2013. While the Chinese side took down their tents, the Indians retreated from the face-off position. In addition, India agreed to bring down a structure that was built on April 20 as part of the trade-off with the Chinese troops.

"There was no deal," said sources. "There is nothing that will stop our efforts to improve infrastructure on the border." The government is taking credit for getting the Chinese to withdraw within three weeks while it took about seven years to get them out during the Wangdung crisis at Sumdurong Chu in Arunachal Pradesh.

Army sources said, it would have to "open" more access routes to the table-top plateau at Depsang Bulge, which became the face-off site between rival troops at an altitude of 16,300-feet.

After the Chinese intrusion 19-km deep into Indian territory on April 15, ITBP and Army troops had to stop their patrolling of the sector on the two available routes going through the Depsang plains and leading up to the strategically-located Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and Karakoram Pass to the north.

The Chinese move, as earlier reported by TOI, threatened to cut off access to almost 750 sq km area in northern Ladakh since the Depsang plains are the only flat open land needed for accessibility to the region. ``We will have to slowly open more access routes to the region as well as step up coordinated patrolling with ITBP. If one access route gets blocked, then the others can be used," said an officer.

The military also thinks there will also be the need to build more forward observation posts and other infrastructure in the region, both for surveillance as well as sustaining long-range patrols. China, which itself has bolstered its military infrastructure along the LAC in a major way for well over two decades now, will obviously not be happy with it.

India's re-activation of the DBO, Fukche and Nyoma advanced landing grounds and construction of some posts along the Line of Actual Control as well as troop reinforcements in Ladakh over the last five to six years has proved to be a major irritant for China.

How India played hardball with China - The Times of India

hahaha it might become my birthday gift...

 

[acid rain]

Well, didn't they break the news of the withdraw in the first place......it seemed credible to all then. !!

No they did not, and it is just an assumption based on unknown sources. It's the GOI's statement you should be more interested in "which said no deals were made".

 

[ExtraOdinary]

If this is true then hats off to old man Antony (as expected our PM and FM are wimps)

 

[ILLUMINATO]

Pakistanis and their false flagging and their delusion,jealousy and complexes sometimes makes me wonder whether they would ever be able to come out of this slumber!!

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistanis and their false flagging and their delusion,jealousy and complexes sometimes makes me wonder whether they would ever be able to come out of this slumber!!

Yea you as an Indian come on a Pakistani forum to share and spread your gifted Indian wisdom.

Get off your high Horse mate, the world certainly doesn't rotate around your piece of land.

 

[danger007]

Yea you as an Indian come on a Pakistani forum to share and spread your gifted Indian wisdom.

Get off your high Horse mate, the world certainly doesn't rotate around your piece of land.

last time i checked it is pakistani's owned international forum

 

[DARIUS]

Yea you as an Indian come on a Pakistani forum to share and spread your gifted Indian wisdom.

Get off your high Horse mate, the world certainly doesn't rotate around your piece of land.

I humbly thank u for opening my eyes and to bring me to term with the ultimate truth!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

LOL, I think we caught him on his worst pessimistic day. To think that a fellow Indian would put the entire IA and the Indian nation down as weak kids in front of the mighty red army is so pathetic.

On top of that he picks on a couple of Indian posters here (though they stepped out of line too in frustration) to put them down as naive kids.

The likes of Joe at the center would be the reason why we are considered a soft state that anyone eyeballs at will, even the chinese wont be as stupid to think that Indians are just pushovers and the nation and its defense forces are scared of them. Joe, Were you drunk or did you get bullied by some youth in Malleshwaram that you needed to take out your frustrations on someone?

I am glad to see that there is a convergence between the Internet Hindu and the Internet Muslim. Now that which was earlier Internet Pakistani has been adopted by Indian fanboys of the crassest sort, when they run out of arguments - LOL.

To think that a fellow Indian would put the entire IA and the Indian nation down as weak kids in front of the mighty red army is so pathetic.

Putting down the IA and the Indian nation as weak kids? Merely by saying that the Chinese defence preparedness is superior?

I wonder which is more pathetic, a voice of reason callng for caution and restraint, or this kind of discordant bazaar bamboozling.

By that yardstick, what you would have said about General (later, Field Marshal) Manekshaw's insistence on waiting for proper planning, deployment and building up of resources, between May 1971 and October 1971, boggles the imagination.

On top of that he picks on a couple of Indian posters here (though they stepped out of line too in frustration) to put them down as naive kids.

How else would you describe naive idiots who depend on TV talk shows for their knowledge of military strategy and doctrine?

The likes of Joe at the center would be the reason why we are considered a soft state that anyone eyeballs at will, even the chinese wont be as stupid to think that Indians are just pushovers and the nation and its defense forces are scared of them.

Would it be rude to describe your comment as premature ejaculation?

At the centre, between 1962 and today, there was time to do the following:

1. Fortified critical junctures, as we constantly fail to do, even when slapped across the face: defended against incursions through the Bailey Trail in future, to avoid a repetition of Akhtar Malik followed by Eftekhar's attacks on the Chhamb Chicken's Neck;
2. Created, trained and equipped proper mountain divisions, not the plains divisions without armour that we think is a proper substitute for a mountain-fighting force;
3. Updated and enhanced our deliverable fire-power at all levels from the section upwards, and especially on portable tubed artillery for mountain warfare;
4. Created a range of deterrent tactical nuclear devices for use under published conditions of warfare, ie, loss of territory, loss of manpower, or the like, and ensured that China is well aware of the red lines;
5. Provided tactical strike air power and theatre level strike air power directed at PLA logistics capabilities in Tibet, and cruise missiles dedicated to every landing strip in Tibet and the hinterland;
6. Build a proper roadway infrastructure both in Ladakh and in Arunachal;
7. Push high-speed high-volume transit systems along the river valleys in Arunachal, ensuring that PLA levels of logistics capability are equalled or exceeded;
8. Built redundant - even triple- or quadruple-redundant railways systems to ensure robust logistics networks to the battlefield rear echelons;
9. Trained the meagre citizenry in the two threatened areas to support special forces operations by the Indian Army;
10. Strengthened alternative battlefields, both along the northern boundaries as well as elsewhere, and leveraged our salient sea-power, to equalise the odds;
11. Created a stand-off capability for delivery of strategic nuclear weapons to all the main populated centres of China;
12. Taken bold policy steps to solve the problem with the minimum loss of territory, to allow these issues to be removed, and the real issues - Tibet, Xinjiang, internal democracy in China - to be addressed;
13. Activated the Subramanian Committee report and put the military in charge of the higher direction of war;
14. Built active and robust ties with Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia, Japan and the US, not when the Chinese confront us and there is an international furore, but when things are at their best, as has happened several times in the past;

Since none of you know the vital difference that these steps would have made, if taken in time, decades ago, you keep jumping up and down and insisting on dick measuring contests with the likes of Hong Wu. None of the intelligent Chinese commentators are active on this thread. Probably because they are trying to recover from having laughed themselves into hiccups reading some of the more stupid posts in the thread.

Before making silly remarks about drinking and Malleswaram, ensure that you come to the discussion with some minimum knowledge of what you are talking about.

 

[acid rain]

How India played hardball with China


NEW DELHI: After initial diffidence and a sense of confusion, India had to play diplomatic hardball to get China to withdraw its troops from Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, which officials claimed was secured without giving any concessions to China, even though New Delhi has agreed to bring down a structure that was erected as "retaliation" to the Chinese incursion.

After the withdrawal, Indian and Chinese officials are expected to meet in the next few days under the rubric of the working mechanism to work out a new set of operating procedures along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC). "We will discuss peace and tranquillity on the LAC," said officials.

As flag meetings failed to resolve the face-off which happened after Chinese troops pitched tents in the area, the government decided to abandon a soft approach to China, said officials. In Beijing, Indian ambassador S Jaishankar impressed on the Chinese that not only was India ready to cancel the visit of foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Beijing, it was also willing to cancel the visit of the Chinese premier Li Keqiang to New Delhi on May 20.

The political initiative to take a harder stand was led by defence minister AK Antony, while foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai worked with the army chief to ensure that the Chinese understood that India was ready to escalate matters, if necessary. In the cabinet meetings, it was Antony's voice that carried the government opinion. Both PM and foreign minister Salman Khurshid had taken a much softer approach.

India insisted Beijing withdraw because they had violated a 2005 protocol. Within the government there were those who were worried about an escalation. However, India apparently had a precedent - in 2002, the NDA government had tackled a similar situation at Barahauti in the middle sector with a tough stand.

India, however, may be ready to agree to a Chinese demand to negotiate a new mechanism on border management. This was a demand by the PLA in response to India's border build-up. India was reluctant earlier but as a result of the standoff, negotiations on this may start, said sources. However, Antony is believed to be reluctant to go down that path.

While the high level visits are still on, the government has now lost the enthusiasm for the Chinese premier's visit. It will go through, and it is important because this is the first overseas visit of the new premier. But with the Depsang incident fresh in their minds, the Indian government will find it difficult to go the extra mile for this relationship just now.

The MEA spokesperson said on Monday that India and China have agreed to restore status quo ante along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the Western Sector of the India-China boundary as it existed prior to 15 April, 2013. While the Chinese side took down their tents, the Indians retreated from the face-off position. In addition, India agreed to bring down a structure that was built on April 20 as part of the trade-off with the Chinese troops.

"There was no deal," said sources. "There is nothing that will stop our efforts to improve infrastructure on the border." The government is taking credit for getting the Chinese to withdraw within three weeks while it took about seven years to get them out during the Wangdung crisis at Sumdurong Chu in Arunachal Pradesh.

Army sources said, it would have to "open" more access routes to the table-top plateau at Depsang Bulge, which became the face-off site between rival troops at an altitude of 16,300-feet.

After the Chinese intrusion 19-km deep into Indian territory on April 15, ITBP and Army troops had to stop their patrolling of the sector on the two available routes going through the Depsang plains and leading up to the strategically-located Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and Karakoram Pass to the north.

The Chinese move, as earlier reported by TOI, threatened to cut off access to almost 750 sq km area in northern Ladakh since the Depsang plains are the only flat open land needed for accessibility to the region. ``We will have to slowly open more access routes to the region as well as step up coordinated patrolling with ITBP. If one access route gets blocked, then the others can be used," said an officer.

The military also thinks there will also be the need to build more forward observation posts and other infrastructure in the region, both for surveillance as well as sustaining long-range patrols. China, which itself has bolstered its military infrastructure along the LAC in a major way for well over two decades now, will obviously not be happy with it.

India's re-activation of the DBO, Fukche and Nyoma advanced landing grounds and construction of some posts along the Line of Actual Control as well as troop reinforcements in Ladakh over the last five to six years has proved to be a major irritant for China.

How India played hardball with China - The Times of India

@HongWu,

There goes your Chumar dream.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your being far too pessimistic.......Your already aware of the airpower balance as i explained in the other thread.Its nowhere near as grim as numbers on a paper suggest.
All that huge military material needs supply lines,supply lines that come through the himalayas and those raillines are the sole lifeline of any invasion force.Also in mountains they would need 10 to 1 superiority .The armour would also be drastically less effective.Cutting into the heartlands is just ludicrous.......we would not only sever their outstretched logistics but also outnumber them completely if they penetrate deep.Geography is our primary advantage.
A thousand tanks are useless metal junks without ammo.Infact this is the reason they retreated in 1962 after taking arunachal,they left not because of goodwill but because of supplies and fear of counterattack.
This is not 1962 sir....and in the mountains advancing is hell paid in blood.India learnt the lesson in kargil.Our troops are alos much more battle hardened in mountain warfare..with kargil and the continous insurgency.

Sadly, no, the Schlieffen Plan-like option that the Chinese have requires no 10:1 superiority, it depends on the Indian stupidity in denuding an entire command, and the increasing affinity to the Chinese of strategic neighbours of ours, and they would have many more armoured divisions and mechanised infantry on the ground than we would.

If, with these broad hints, you look at the map, and sit and think Deepak Kapoor and Panag, you will get the horrible predicament that we might be in.

Don't be so quick to discount possibilities without having figured out what I am driving at. You are too knowledgeable for that.

Are you scared Mr @Joe Shearer ??

Your interpretation of Chinese message, I feel is some what wrong.

Prior to this standoff Chinese approached India with a border deal, But India said wait since the deal is not acceptable for India. In order to force India to accept the deal Chinese are trying to bully India by these incursions.

even after the standoff is over, India is denying the border deal with China. GOI knows the best here.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/no-d...dia-despite-end-of-border-dispute-756853.html


The reason for India to not go into any border arrangement is simple, Chinese have built up their infrastructure and military on their side, India needs to do that before going to talks.Now that our economy is doing well in the past decade the up gradation of Indo-Tibet border is going on.

Who cares whether Chinese are annoyed or not...!!!, see the big picture the game with China always involves USA, Japan and India.

Chinese are never going to accept Arunachal Pradesh as a part of India, The recent statement of Xi Xingping "that Chinese will not swallow bitter pill" confirms that.

Neither India is going to give up on any territories, Chinese only want temporary peace with India so that they can finish off the bullying in SCS and East sea. Then it will be India's turn.
In this scenario it is better to work with countries like Japan, Vietnam etc and enter some defense agreement with them.And also build credible deterrence so that we can make them pay for any incursion.

India is only defending its borders and we are not annoying any one here, it is the Chinese who are annoying every neighbor of them and are implementing their forward policy.

Going by the words of Chinese official spokesperson




Don't you think China is back tracking in the sense now they realized Bilateral trade which is close to 75 Billion is more important , than these stupid incursions??

It is China that is annoying us not viceversa.

Not scared, just contemptuous of schoolboys who haven't done their homework.