Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[deckingraj]

Look...I'm all in favour of engagement with China and I'm not in favour of rocking any boat. I'm not the jingoistic type & I would much rather that India & China work on a relationship that delivers to both. The only think I suggest is to get into dealings with China with our eyes open & with an understanding of what China thinks, what China seeks, what we want & where & how we can work any issues out. Just don't want people spewing rubbish on emotional lines of great friendship, alliance against the west & the like. We need to work on what is mutually acceptable & where we have an issue be very clear headed on it. None of the sentimental humbug.

Bang on...nothing to argue there...

 

[illusion8]

You are right..but sorry to say when you claim you are confident then you are basically hoping...Now what actually will happen no one can say...All we can discuss is how we match against them on paper...There infra is way better than ours in the border Area...In short they can very easily outnumber us by 3:1....If we take into account a localized conflict then we are even at a greater disadvantage...Even holding our posts would be very difficult....because our logistics are going to be a big issue...Like it or not but our situation viz-a-viz China in a localized conflict is pathetic...Now am i saying things can't improve?? No...but are they improving...well unfortunately...NO!!

You need a dose of reality dude - what's the use of in paper strength - numbers don't count for jack when the overall situation is in your favor. 3:1 is no big deal, to really subdue us they need atleast 8:1 as what happened in 62. Come out of the on paper calculations -when the Indian defense heads are confident that they can match up to them believe it.

 

[deckingraj]

You need a dose of reality dude - what's the use of in paper strength - numbers don't count for jack when the overall situation is in your favor. 3:1 is no big deal, to really subdue us they need atleast 8:1 as what happened in 62. Come out of the on paper calculations -when the Indian defense heads are confident that they can match up to them believe it.

I am all for a dose of reality buddy...in case you have one...please share...What's the use of looking in Paper strength?? May i humbly ask how else you analyze the might of your foe...by actually fighting them??

May i again humbly ask how is overall situation in our favor? It seems either you are purposefully ignoring the importance of logistics in a war scenario or you are not aware of it...

Also if you can then kindly do share any Defense heads who have ever publicly acknowledged that they can't match up their enemy?? Look i am all for bravado and a very proud Indian however i want to live in a real world and not in some la la land just bcoz somebody is saying something...

 

[Bang Galore]

India responded in six hours flat

Officials here are satisfied by the speed with which the Indian security forces reacted to tents put up by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers in Debsang Valley on April 15. But they are still mystified by the purpose behind such an exercise that heightened passions in India.

India had put up tents opposite the Chinese ones in six hours, a speed which was unimaginable a decade back. “Rather than guess their intentions, we have to have in place a response and make it clear that if they do anything silly, they would be embarrassed. We showed it this time. In six hours Indian troops were there,” they pointed out.

Several theories abound about possible Chinese intentions in camping for three weeks on a featureless ground disputed by both sides, but sources said India’s current level of preparedness helped ensure the diplomats did not have sleepless nights.

India has reactivated over a dozen airfields next to the Chinese border. It has built almost 70 roads leading to forward positions and logistics depots, positioned high-performance fighter jets in the North-East and equipped its soldiers with advanced fighting ability in the mountains. “No government in the past has done so much as this one has done in the past six years to strengthen the border,” they claimed.

India could have exercised the options of cutting the supply lines or doing away with the Chinese soldiers, as suggested by several strategic experts. “What would have been the outcome? Where would have all that headed to?” they asked and explained the difference between the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China and the Line of Control (LOC) with Pakistan.

The LOC is a live line, demarcated by the militaries, across which a lot of activity takes place — firing, movements and face to face confrontation, especially static in the form of posts bang opposite each other. None of this is true in the case of the LAC. It is not demarcated and has vast empty spaces — 50 to 100 kms separate the two armies — with patrols from both sides walking in and out of these empty spaces. “Problems arise when we carry the habits of India-Pak LOC to the India-China LAC,” said the sources.

The sources did not see the three-week encampment by Chinese troops as a one-off pattern. They pointed to recurring problems because of the disputed border — stapled visas, denial of visit to an Indian Army commander posted in Jammu & Kashmir, presence of PLA troops in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and refusal of visas to people from Arunachal Pradesh. “It is the same pattern. Not all is wonderful and peaceful in India-China relations. This is a complex relationship.”

Chinese Premier Li Keiqiang arrives here towards the end of the month. Apart from official level talks, he also has several public engagements lined up. Both will serve to assess the Chinese reason behind the encampment and its approach towards the border issue.

In case China reminds India about the draft of a Border Cooperation Agreement it had submitted in March this year, New Delhi might want to bring back to the table negotiations for clarifying the LAC, especially in areas such as the one to which both sides claim. China had expressed disinterest in talks to clarify the LAC about a decade back and since then the subject has not been raised again.

But the sources felt more clarity will come after Mr. Khurshid returns and when Mr. Keiqiang arrives here. Till then India could remain content that the matter did not escalate to the point of no return, its negotiators held their nerves, and the existing mechanisms and treaties were put to reasonably good effect.

India responded in six hours flat - The Hindu

 

[illusion8]

I am all for a dose of reality buddy...in case you have one...please share...What's the use of looking in Paper strength?? May i humbly ask how else you analyze the might of your foe...by actually fighting them??

May i again humbly ask how is overall situation in our favor? It seems either you are purposefully ignoring the importance of logistics in a war scenario or you are not aware of it...

Also if you can then kindly do share any Defense heads who have ever publicly acknowledged that they can't match up their enemy?? Look i am all for bravado and a very proud Indian however i want to live in a real world and not in some la la land just bcoz somebody is saying something...

The dose of reality is that this isn't 1962 anymore and Nehru is dead and buried a long while back, you are falling for the show that the chinese put up regarding their strength - the proof of the pudding is in the fact that they had to go to such lengths to deter India's rising Infrastructure developments and deployments in that area which is contrary to your perception that they can steam roll us when they desire. There is no abnormal force difference between the chinese and us and the fact is even they know it.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I salute you, Joe, you will be a troublesome opponents, my mood is complicated, huh, huh.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Alternative interpretation of events: this whole episode was engineered by India.

India knew that infrastructure work so close to the LAC would be seen as provocation by China and that it (China) would have to make a statement, however perfunctory. Also, knowing that China is already embroiled in tensions to its East, India knew that China would not be keen on a two-front escalation right now. Add to that China's desire to keep tensions with India to a minimum to avoid an opening for the West.

Therefore, from the Indian viewpoint, the infrastructure provocation was calculated and the Chinese reaction predicted. The Indian media circus was also a preordained part of the scenario. Chances are the Chinese knew what game was being played, but they could not let the Indian provocation go unanswered; they had to respond.

All in all, a well played chess move by the Indian establishment.

Bingo!It should be the truth. Therefore, I support the move of the Government of China, India, your doing it again.Nevertheless, it is to be resolved quickly, so that there are still some things commendable.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Haha, the Indian military reaction (compared to government) is interesting.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

I'm a bit unsure of your assertion that this round went to China. I'm still all at sea figuring out what the Chinese really achieved here.

A dig at India's prestige.

If you check the wikileaks there are several nations in Chinese neighborhood suspicious of Chinese intentions and think of India as part of the group to balance Chinese influence.

The recent incursion and way the Indian Govt responded doesn't inspire confidence in those nations about India as a counter weight.

PS : This is not the first instance of Chinese incursions and subsequent downplaying by our political establishment. There were more in NE. Except this one got good attention from the media.

 

[deckingraj]

The dose of reality is that this isn't 1962 anymore and Nehru is dead and buried a long while back, you are falling for the show that the chinese put up regarding their strength - the proof of the pudding is in the fact that they had to go to such lengths to deter India's rising Infrastructure developments and deployments in that area which is contrary to your perception that they can steam roll us when they desire. There is no abnormal force difference between the chinese and us and the fact is even they know it.

Look stop giving me "this is no 1962"...These are words that have been created to fool gullible Indians...If we compare to India-China of 1962 with that of 2013 then they have beaten us hands down in any field that you can think off. Please open your eyes...they have become worlds second largest economy...Is all that sham?? Is it a surprise that a better economy is directly proportional to a stronger military power...Do you believe they are messing up with Japan(in other words USA) because they are mad people??


If we confine ourselves to simply military terms then look at the amount of improvement they have made...Look at the advancements their defense industry have made...Look at their space industry and them compare them with ours...so my Friend this is again a lost case....and the most pathetic thing is that in 47 both the countries were nearly at the same level with almost similar problems...In fact there was a time when China found itself pitched against both the super-powers of that time...


India's rising Infrastructure and developments?? You are living in some dream land my Friend...I wish your claims were correct but unfortunately they are just words with little facts attached to them....Is it a surprise that every year we return money from our defense budget just because we are not able to spend the money?? This is when almost 70% of the weapons are imported....and then you say we are all ready and that too for China??....

Look no doubt there is work going on...however that doesn't mean at this point in time our infra is anywhere comparable to theirs...I have no idea what their motive was however if you think they were nervous about the pace of our Infra then sorry...if you get time then please compare the below two articles...

Is India

http://www.claws.in/administrator/uploaded_files/1317312941MP 32 inside.pdf

@P.S : I am a proud Indian...i don't want war with China or for that matter anybody however i do want that nobody should be able to toy with our self-esteem...There is lot of work that needs to be done and we should be all aware of it...

 

[deckingraj]

A dig at India's prestige.

If you check the wikileaks there are several nations in Chinese neighborhood suspicious of Chinese intentions and think of India as part of the group to balance Chinese influence.

The recent incursion and way the Indian Govt responded doesn't inspire confidence in those nations about India as a counter weight.

PS : This is not the first instance of Chinese incursions and subsequent downplaying by our political establishment. There were more in NE. Except this one got good attention from the media.

I am sorry but not sure if i agree there...India was never a counter-weight to China...India is perceived to be someone who will be a counter-weight to China...GOI did respond, yeah not in military terms but there is another side to such moves as well...India have not been check-mate here...and even if she is what other choice these so called China neighbors have?? They are cozing up with USA and they will continue to cozy up with India to keep a check on China...

What changed on ground is still something that confuses me...