Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[ShahidT]

Perhaps not in the Military sphere of things but economically & politically India is both an emerging economy & with it a State with an exponentially higher nuisance value in the International Arena than it enjoyed but a decade ago. Shouldn't then the lure of a potentially quite lucrative market due to its huge population with their income levels on the rise coupled with India implying, through actions, a categorical 'No' in being a part of any potential Anti-China or Counter-China nexus & with a genuine desire to see greater economic integration, people-to-people interaction & an exploitation of each others basic & advanced factors to accrue competitive advantage to their respective economies as a viable block, be enough to appeal to the rationality of the Chinese to solve the border issues in an amicable way instead of through a position of aggressive assertiveness.

you take the cake for longest sentence ever, Butt saahb habit of mine as well.

I think Joe is right. Obviously both want to resolve the border dispute amicably, but without appearing weak or compromising. there lies the issue. If we look at this incident, it's clear China has the upperhand on the border question. they've gone on building infrastructure much more thoroughly and since way longer on the eastern most perception of LAC, than India has on their side.

By leaving, they may have let India keep Daulat beg and Chumar. but the fixed structures like Raki nala and non-temporary posts well on India's side of no man's land would most certainly have been agreed to be halted in their construction or progress, if not dismantled. there is no other way they'd withdraw so willingly.

China has successfully exerted its superior position in the relationship by forcing India to accept the double standard of no construction on their side, whereas development of roads, posts and troop mobilization infrast. continue unabated at rapid pace in Aksai Chin. Such an unbalanced power equation is likely to remain in the foreseeable future, unless some drastic black swan event takes place.

 

[HongWu]

Chumar belongs to China now. We entered Indian territory with PLA and Indians could only cry. We kept squeezing their balls for 20 days until they carved away Chumar. They tried to steal it from China by building bunkers in disputed areas in violation of the 2005 treaty. Now they got caught and PLA spanked them badly for their arrogant overreaching. Now their shupa-powa dreams lie shattered by PLA just like 1962. All that talk about "it's not 1962 anymore" turned out to be empty Indian boasting as usual

India to give up Chumar post for Chinese withdrawal? - The Times of India

 

[SpArK]

Chumar belongs to China now. We entered Indian territory with PLA and Indians could only cry. We kept squeezing their balls until they carved away Chumar. They tried to steal it from China by building bunkers in disputed areas in violation of the 2005 treaty. Now they got caught and PLA spanked them badly for their overreaching. Their shupa-powa dreams are shattered by PLA just like 1962.

India to give up Chumar post for Chinese withdrawal? - The Times of India

After squeezing, start suckin the stick.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Chumar belongs to China now. We entered Indian territory with PLA and Indians could only cry. We kept squeezing their balls for 20 days until they carved away Chumar. They tried to steal it from China by building bunkers in disputed areas in violation of the 2005 treaty. Now they got caught and PLA spanked them badly for their arrogant overreaching. Now their shupa-powa dreams lie shattered by PLA just like 1962. All that talk about "it's not 1962 anymore" turned out to be empty Indian boasting as usual

India to give up Chumar post for Chinese withdrawal? - The Times of India

Why do you not get that you are simply a nuisance, and that your presence immediately causes a swell of dislike for China and the Chinese? You just have to put down a single line for people to start supportive of the opposite side of the argument.

 

[Peshwa]

wtf you are using Guerilla warfare to fight us in our country hahahaha man seriously you need to go see your local gp asap, man this is the first time I heard an invading army using Guerilla warfare tactics

What the hell are you banging on about?

Take a step back and take some notes from history.....In 1971, we recruited/supported the local guerilla force called Mukti Bahini against the Pakistani army IN what was then a part of Pakistan...we also sent an invading force thereafter to put the final nail on the coffin. It was one of the greatest successes of the Indian army to date!

Now please dont waste my time....if you have a valid argument, ill be more than happy to reply.

 

[Dandpatta]

Why do you not get that you are simply a nuisance, and that your presence immediately causes a swell of dislike for China and the Chinese? You just have to put down a single line for people to start supportive of the opposite side of the argument.

He is just another warmonger with brains in his knees. And of his types, we have posters wearing different flags - be it Chinese, Indians or Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. Take his irritations (in the wrong places) as child's chest beatings.

 

[Peshwa]

Not all Indians are as stupid as this one. Please don't laugh at us. Our military are really better than these unrepresentative ********.

Mr. Shearer...was that a dig at me?

I can sense some sarcasm in your post, but just want to be clear...I'd rather be educated than insulted!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Munna chinkies have no brain to understand what exactly deal stuck between indian n chinese army...they do cry over here n there as they do here....simple thing is that our PM is coward n sonia gandhi has no potential to deal with such situation...indian army was too ready to give same gesture to chinkies army but all sorted out at diplomatic level...chinkies has sought permission from indian army to look at karakoram highway.....dude things could become worst than expected but its ok ....

Please do not use these disgusting racist expressions.

Mr. Shearer...was that a dig at me?

I can sense some sarcasm in your post, but just want to be clear...I'd rather be educated than insulted!

There was sarcasm, and none of it directed at you. How did you get that?

 

[acid rain]

I guess Joe's stuck in the 60's and the 70's - though he is right about the lack of infrastructure and the difficulty in rapid movement of our troops. But one needs to factor in that Indian troops are battle hardened and also are getting exposed to training and war exercises (Indian troops undergo rigorous training with a large number of countries), and huge presence in UN missions all over the world with multiple countries while the chinese haven't had any combat for 3 decades.

He is also right about the shortage of weapons mainly due to red tape and corruption or negligence - but we will not be dealing with a fully modernized chinese army too - 70% of their inventory is obsolete yet.

LOL, I think we caught him on his worst pessimistic day. To think that a fellow Indian would put the entire IA and the Indian nation down as weak kids in front of the mighty red army is so pathetic.

On top of that he picks on a couple of Indian posters here (though they stepped out of line too in frustration) to put them down as naive kids.

The likes of Joe at the center would be the reason why we are considered a soft state that anyone eyeballs at will, even the chinese wont be as stupid to think that Indians are just pushovers and the nation and its defense forces are scared of them. Joe, Were you drunk or did you get bullied by some youth in Malleshwaram that you needed to take out your frustrations on someone?

 

[Parul]

Chumar belongs to China now. We entered Indian territory with PLA and Indians could only cry. We kept squeezing their balls for 20 days until they carved away Chumar. They tried to steal it from China by building bunkers in disputed areas in violation of the 2005 treaty. Now they got caught and PLA spanked them badly for their arrogant overreaching. Now their shupa-powa dreams lie shattered by PLA just like 1962. All that talk about "it's not 1962 anymore" turned out to be empty Indian boasting as usual

India to give up Chumar post for Chinese withdrawal? - The Times of India

HongWu post a new link. You've cut, copy and pasted this article in # of threads....

 

[deckingraj]

Dude; your knowledge of Military Matters is quite abysmal, a little bit of 'cut-paste' information from here and there on the internet (it is apparent that you have not read any books) or attempting to (mis)interpret what some guy on TV is saying, cannot be passed off as strategising.

Another thing that strikes me about you and your ilk is that the closest that you came to soldiering is playing with toy guns from Hasbro not very long ago. And you think that war-fighting is simply moving some tin soldiers across the floor.

Most of all; you are not even aware of the basic dictum of warfare: fight in an area of your advantage and at a time of your advantage.
Neither is to the IA's advantage now. Or for that matter the PLA's advantage either.

If the time is not apt for fighting of both sides then what is the fuss about? What is your stand on logic behind the chinese move...Please share your thoughts on that.

Which is simply why the shooting did'nt start.

Shooting didn't start and will not start unless and until either side is prepared to risk escalation. Logic about fighting is not merely about area of your advantage or time of your advantage...it is also about what's you are profit/loss analysis and the risk appetite for what you are willing to put in, geo-politics, no? At this point in time i can't contemplate how on this earth can China afford to have yet another hostile front. Would appreciate if you can throw some lights...

I said this to Joe also and will repeat...there is a reason our PM have extended his Japan trip by one day...Look i believe all China has achieved by doing what they did is strengthen the people on our side who see China(and rightly so) as a threat...Though i am very skeptical about it yet i hope atleast now South Block will wake up and give us the much needed infra in East.

 

[deckingraj]

Now this is an over reaction buddy!!!

LOL, I think we caught him on his worst pessimistic day. To think that a fellow Indian would put the entire IA and the Indian nation down as weak kids in front of the mighty red army is so pathetic.

On top of that he picks on a couple of Indian posters here (though they stepped out of line too in frustration) to put them down as naive kids.

The likes of Joe at the center would be the reason why we are considered a soft state that anyone eyeballs at will, even the chinese wont be as stupid to think that Indians are just pushovers and the nation and its defense forces are scared of them. Joe, Were you drunk or did you get bullied by some youth in Malleshwaram that you needed to take out your frustrations on someone?

As said in earlier post IMHO he has painted only one side of the coin but whatever he is saying about that one side he is absolutely right...if we strictly talk about present situation then can you deny we are at a very weak position viz-a-viz China??

Militarily they can easily outnumber us 3:1 due to their amazing Infra...We all know about our pathetic situation of Ammo...We all are aware of the fact that IA is desperately looking out for Guns but bofors scam of yesteryear's is still haunting them....Our economy has slowed down big time and we are marred in scam after scam...Politics of coalition makes center govt. looks like a regional govt...and unfortunately things are not looking rosy even in 2014....Congress has lost ground but BJP has not been able to capitalize on it to the extent one would feel comfortable(anyhow a topic for a different thread)...So yes, we are week both politically and economically than what we were let's say 5-8 years earlier...this is certainly not good.

Forget about all of this....India was always saying that Chinese have incurred into our land...They came in at the time of their choosing...they left at the time of their choosing and now there are reports that some concessions were made from our side too...Now this certainly can't be a victory for us, no?? My bone of contention with Joe and likes is that IMHO this doesn't look like a victory for CPC as well...

 

[acid rain]

Now this is an over reaction buddy!!!



As said in earlier post IMHO he has painted only one side of the coin but whatever he is saying about that one side he is absolutely right...if we strictly talk about present situation then can you deny we are at a very weak position viz-a-viz China??

Militarily they can easily outnumber us 3:1 due to their amazing Infra...We all know about our pathetic situation of Ammo...We all are aware of the fact that IA is desperately looking out for Guns but bofors scam of yesteryear's is still haunting them....Our economy has slowed down big time and we are marred in scam after scam...Politics of coalition makes center govt. looks like a regional govt...and unfortunately things are not looking rosy even in 2014....Congress has lost ground but BJP has not been able to capitalize on it to the extent one would feel comfortable(anyhow a topic for a different thread)...So yes, we are week both politically and economically than what we were let's say 5-8 years earlier...this is certainly not good.

Forget about all of this....India was always saying that Chinese have incurred into our land...They came in at the time of their choosing...they left at the time of their choosing and now there are reports that some concessions were made from our side too...Now this certainly can't be a victory for us, no?? My bone of contention with Joe and likes is that IMHO this doesn't look like a victory for CPC as well...

It wasn't an overreaction but an underreaction because I was mindful of his age, his knowledge base and his seniority here. It was in summation to all his posts and his replies on this thread, the overall image he paints is that the Chinese dictated to us, got their way with us and if escalation happens India will not only lose but will lose badly in both men and land - that is ridiculous from any stretch of imagination other than if you are a chini fanboi that floats or the numerous cheerleaders that float around on this forum.

I guess Joe is falling into the trap and falling for the image that the chinese intend to portray and that is they are superior and cannot be defeated much like the show of strength the North Koreans display to the South.

I never assume that we are stronger than the chinese simply because I know that we are not or else we would be listed in second place in global rankings behind the US. But to paint a picture that we are the weakest of chinas opponents is the stupidest thing I have heard. Indias infrastrure is quite weak in comparision to the chinese and our weapons are not the most modern and up to date but so are the chinese, 70% of their tanks, fighters and weapons are obsolete and of the 70's and the 80's era. The most potent jet the J 10 is a copy of the 80's F16.

The chinese can deploy about 30 divisions in Ladakh in a months time, but Joe hasn't figured out that they cannot pull out troops from the rest of their fronts against the Japanese, Russians, Taiwanese, thee Veits etc to challenge India. Both airforces and our navies can hold up against each other if the need arises.

Diplomatically we are on higher ground against a bully. Their retreat was obviously a victory in the sense that they had to make such an effort to get such a small concession which could have been diplomatically acheived, the furore their intrusion created and the aftermath that our center now views the chinese as enemies and watches their every move is victory enough for us because the realists in India wanted china to give our Govt a wake up call and their wake up call was stupid and a minor irritant was victory enogh.

 

[danger007]

Difficult to understand, for the following reasons.

Does pointing out that the Army does not have to fight to a predetermined defeat amount to advocating cowardice? Which fool will knowingly want his country's defenders to die needlessly?

Failed in the chess move? How? They seem to have put the border matter back on the front burner, which seems to have been their only intention.

Got thrashed like sh!T? Not a single shot was fired. What famous victory have you imagined?





Pointing out the realities of the situation is a thousand times better than the empty-headed jingoism that has been on display.



Again, you need to look up the records. The incoming PLA built roads as it came in, when it had to. The Indian Army gains nothing by not building infrastructure; it only loses the possibility of building up material stocks,

There was just as little, in fact, even less infrastructure, in 1962. That did not noticeably deny any space to any enemy.

The landing facilities are not in the hills; they are in the plains. It is difficult to explain how guerrillas dropped, or airlifted to the plains will help in case of war.

Only a school child who gains his military knowledge from talk shows and from mysterious, undefined sources can come out with such utter, blethering nonsense.

India only built landing facilities to move these guerillas in case of war and also bought Antonov aircraft for that.

More ignorance.

Do you have any idea how deep they penetrated last time? Why don't you confine yourself to matters about which you know? Even a little bit will do.[/QUOTE]

I do have an idea, about what am talking about.... My family member served and serving in Three services of Indian armed forces..... I had an idea, and visited AP,Ladakh, Rajasthan....my family attached to the Armed forces since 1920.. my grand father is there when IA attacked near Lahore...... I do have an idea about our military installation in Indo-china boarder.....


china had 7 military regions which is sub divided into further in districts... you are questioning can IA match with Two district of PLA... yeah it can match.... I am not saying we can match PLA, PLA is great force... no body is denying that... but what eva you are talking praising PLA and downsizing IA... that is quite funny... you should have faith and courage on your own army.... if you don't have both of them... no matter what kinda weapons you got... you can't even win on small country....

@ChinaToday.... mind your own business....

 

[Developereo]

Sometimes I wonder if your surname happens to be Gandhi.

Well, I do profess a fondness for Italian women.

A mere coincidence, no doubt.