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KSA & UAE - Submarine Options

The Iranian Kilo class are not that much of a threat in the Arabian Gulf, due to the depth of the gulf. To counter it the Baynunah Class and Abu Dhabi Class corvettes are sufficient.

Merely referred as Russian possibility is highly unlikely in this situation. However, as in the last, stated about possible Chinese Road, I would suggest as the same can provide more flexible and complete package solution after dealing with political chapter. Heard that China Navy recently paid a visit to Gulf ports as well so things could be worked if one sees as opportunity to go with it. Also, KSA close relations with Pakistan and our contract of 8 Chinese Subs can give an idea to our brothers or who knows the same may be taken as a hint of inspiration for KSA Subs. While looking at UAE fleet, most probably the tilt may go to France and from political point of view, the recent UAE-India understandings etc China wouldn't the chapter of interest for them. Just saying.
 
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Merely referred as Russian possibility is highly unlikely in this situation. However, as in the last, stated about possible Chinese Road, I would suggest as the same can provide more flexible and complete package solution after dealing with political chapter. Heard that China Navy recently paid a visit to Gulf ports as well so things could be worked if one sees as opportunity to go with it. Also, KSA close relations with Pakistan and our contract of 8 Chinese Subs can give an idea to our brothers or who knows the same may be taken as a hint of inspiration for KSA Subs. While looking at UAE fleet, most probably the tilt may go to France and from political point of view, the recent UAE-India understandings etc China wouldn't the chapter of interest for them. Just saying.

I agree with you 100%.

The only thing China could offer the EN, that the French won't, are Long Range SLCM's . (I'm sure Scalp would be part of the package) .This could actually be a deal breaker for the French, but on the other hand their SMX Ocean is the elephant in the room you can't ignore. So quite a dilemma.

On the French - Indian angle, just today an indian poster was saying that there would be synergies between India and UAE because both would be RAFALE operators. I said no. He forgot that even the Qatari and the Egyptian Rafale's are different than the Indian ones, we haven't even finalized our specs as of yet, so to assume any commonality between ours and theirs, is a bit naive.

I can safely tell you, that InShaAllah on the defence side, the status quo will remain the same.
 
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Amur 1850 - The Russians could deliver a the complete package, but maintaing Russian H/w, and plus the fact that they sell Kilos to Iran needs to be considered. IMO the Chinese have a better chance than the Russians.

SMX OCCEAN - Technologically right at the pinnacle. Something to very very seriously consider.

In order to maintain peace, having a formidable arsenal, that actually functions, is of paramount importance.
UAE and KSA should then go for SMX OCCEAN because you ain't getting AMUR 1850 the quite sub or the german 216... SMX Occean is priority should be right now.
 
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Amur 1850 - The Russians could deliver a the complete package, but maintaing Russian H/w, and plus the fact that they sell Kilos to Iran needs to be considered. IMO the Chinese have a better chance than the Russians.

SMX OCCEAN - Technologically right at the pinnacle. Something to very very seriously consider.



@MastanKhan could answer this statement very well. Military hardware is as much about what your enemy perceives you can do with it.

In order to maintain peace, having a formidable arsenal, that actually functions, is of paramount importance.
i know what u mean.but dear i m also born here and know arabs very well.
sometimes back a omani guy told me that we know how to write checks so it's never to worry about.
 
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i know what u mean.but dear i m also born here and know arabs very well.
sometimes back a omani guy told me that we know how to write checks so it's never to worry about.
I have said this before, clubbing Emiratis with the rest of the Arabs is the biggest mistake you can do. But you are entitled to it.

even if you order subs today, it will take 10-12 years to induct, familiar and made strategies for them..
Actually 5 years is very realistic.

Submarine operations are pretty complex and take years of training, experience in operations and then develop a culture in the Navy. PN commenced SubOps in 1963, when the first crew was sent to the US.

Buying a sub doesn't mean anything.

I may be off topic as desired by the OP, but the need to have a certain platform, warrants the required expertise to operate that platform.

I have done numerous exercises with the RSNF and have been onboard RSNF vessels as umpire also.
They arn't even proficient in Surface operations, so even thinking of subops for them is a pretty far fetched idea.
They have very limited knowledge of ASW.

I remember in an exercise, one of their SSM's misfired at sea, they came back alongside and called the OEM. The OEM team reached Karachi the next day and worked on the missile system. After 2 days, they went to sea again and fired the missile. This was their standard then and I am sure it hasn't improved much. I cant share more than this.

Sorry for being too critical towards RSNF, but it's not meant to degrade them.

UAE Navy isn't much different that RSNF, but they are more hard working than the Saudi's.
I had both Saudi and UAE cadets train with me in the Academy, so I know their level of understanding.

Sir, this might interest you:
"But in the summer of 2015, the United Arab Emirates threw two battalions of Leclercs into the civil war in Yemen — and from the few sketchy reports, it seems the tank has fared better than the American-made M-1 Abrams has done in the same conflict"

"By July 2015, Saudi ground forces were bogged down attempting to capture the Al Anad air base near Aden. An Emirati armor brigade conducted an amphibious landing — most likely via tank landing craft — at an oil refinery terminal, a major logistical feat for the small country. The armored brigade rolled down the N-1 highway and captured the air base on Aug. 3, allowing coalition forces to break out of Aden."

https://defence.pk/threads/leclerc-main-battle-tank.472453/#post-9106555
 
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Threats evolve, enemies become friends, and friends become enemies.

Hi,

Thank you for tagging me---.

ISIS----came from nowhere and became such a massive threat within days and months in such a manner that conventional forces had no answer to contain them.

That is one reason to understand---you cannot decide to buy the weapon the day you decide to go to war---.

A submarine type of vehicle---a Frigate---a battle tank---a fighter aircraft---a radar equipment or anything that is needed to do battle---you sign a contract 10 to 15 years before you think that you might need it----.

It will take 2 to 5 years to get what you want---and then comes the integration---the training---more training and then some more training---.

For a first time venture----like into a submarine---saudis---emiratis would need at least 10 to 15 years of experience in the boats to be capable operators. 20 years down the road---they will hold their own depending on their program and training guidelines.

The tier 1 options availabe are the French---the Germans---and the Japanese---. The all out options are the chinese.

@Khafee---you have raised this subject at a perfect time---. I personally think that the saudis and emiratis need to get involved in the grass root level of building the subs and must form a joint venture with china / pakistan.

These two countries need to move away from the mindset of " we have money and we can buy whatever we want to and we can buy others to do our biddings---"---" because in the combats of future---the others may change sides mid-stride---and for that very reason---both these countries need to be self sufficient "...

Plus there there nothing like building your own weapons and operating them successfully that builds confidence in you like nothing else---. It is like an aphrodisiac. It opens up the mind and brings in a bigger picture of what is being done.

When you build a machine with your hands---it gives you a different working perception of its operation and utility.

The enemy of KSA and GCC is not going to wait for these countries to arm up---. The enemy already has an operational advantage of submarine warfare---the enemy also has an advantage of sea warfare---which is seriously lacking in KSA and GCC---.

KSA and GCC will have to learn and understand one day that the best helping hand is at the end of their own arm---but till then---it has to formulate alliance---with you know whom.

The german option is not reliable---there is too much influence of the public.

I think the best bet is the chinese subs---with european battle control systems---where Turkey can be a big help as well.

That is what I would do---if I had the authority to make the decision and overlook the operation---.

I would start from the bottoms up---KSA and GCC labor involvement in building---the labor I mean would be non comms and officers in the navies of these countries working at the grass root levels in putting the machine together---.

At this stage in the life of KSA and GCC---just buying and operating is not enough---the young men of these countries need to have a hands on experience how to put them together---maintain and operate them.

A chinese package---thus would give them their much needed capability of patrolling under the surface of the seas and taking control of their destiny.

The GCC and the KSA have missed out bad on getting involved in the JF17 at the grass roots---. 10 Jr officers and 20 techs each would have brought in such massive dividends for the air forces of both these countries.

They should not---they must not repeat this mistake again---. I still think that the chinese paltform is the best platform for them---a similar one to the pakistani platform---.

Will make the operation---training and maintenance a much much easier task---. And that is what my emphasis would be---if I was presenting my case in front of the powers to be.
 
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Hi,

Thank you for tagging me---.

ISIS----came from nowhere and became such a massive threat within days and months in such a manner that conventional forces had no answer to contain them.

That is one reason to understand---you cannot decide to buy the weapon the day you decide to go to war---.

A submarine type of vehicle---a Frigate---a battle tank---a fighter aircraft---a radar equipment or anything that is needed to do battle---you sign a contract 10 to 15 years before you think that you might need it----.

It will take 2 to 5 years to get what you want---and then comes the integration---the training---more training and then some more training---.

For a first time venture----like into a submarine---saudis---emiratis would need at least 10 to 15 years of experience in the boats to be capable operators. 20 years down the road---they will hold their own depending on their program and training guidelines.

The tier 1 options availabe are the French---the Germans---and the Japanese---. The all out options are the chinese.

@Khafee---you have raised this subject at a perfect time---. I personally think that the saudis and emiratis need to get involved in the grass root level of building the subs and must form a joint venture with china / pakistan.

These two countries need to move away from the mindset of " we have money and we can buy whatever we want to and we can buy others to do our biddings---"---" because in the combats of future---the others may change sides mid-stride---and for that very reason---both these countries need to be self sufficient "...

Plus there there nothing like building your own weapons and operating them successfully that builds confidence in you like nothing else---. It is like an aphrodisiac. It opens up the mind and brings in a bigger picture of what is being done.

When you build a machine with your hands---it gives you a different working perception of its operation and utility.

The enemy of KSA and GCC is not going to wait for these countries to arm up---. The enemy already has an operational advantage of submarine warfare---the enemy also has an advantage of sea warfare---which is seriously lacking in KSA and GCC---.

KSA and GCC will have to learn and understand one day that the best helping hand is at the end of their own arm---but till then---it has to formulate alliance---with you know whom.

The german option is not reliable---there is too much influence of the public.

I think the best bet is the chinese subs---with european battle control systems---where Turkey can be a big help as well.

That is what I would do---if I had the authority to make the decision and overlook the operation---.

I would start from the bottoms up---KSA and GCC labor involvement in building---the labor I mean would be non comms and officers in the navies of these countries working at the grass root levels in putting the machine together---.

At this stage in the life of KSA and GCC---just buying and operating is not enough---the young men of these countries need to have a hands on experience how to put them together---maintain and operate them.

A chinese package---thus would give them their much needed capability of patrolling under the surface of the seas and taking control of their destiny.

The GCC and the KSA have missed out bad on getting involved in the JF17 at the grass roots---. 10 Jr officers and 20 techs each would have brought in such massive dividends for the air forces of both these countries.

They should not---they must not repeat this mistake again---. I still think that the chinese paltform is the best platform for them---a similar one to the pakistani platform---.

Will make the operation---training and maintenance a much much easier task---. And that is what my emphasis would be---if I was presenting my case in front of the powers to be.
that wont work, if the uae is actively looking for subs, they would go french, i wont be surprised to find india offering the scorpene with drdo aip. yes indeed Germany is a risky, but there Sweden with the a26 is also an option. but most likely they would go to dcns and get the scorpene sub, and if they were nice they would let pakistani naval officers train them and to learn the as much as they can about the scorpene as india has the same sub too.
SSK_Scorpene_india.jpg

even were getting in the game too
http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-portfolio/bmt-vidar-submarines/
 
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Hi,

Don't you have legs to stand on your own---without getting me involved in your post----.
excuse me................. your saying the uae should go chinese and avoid the germans, i too think the germans are a bad idea and further i added more points. whats wrong with that?
did i steal your thunder?
 
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What if they use small subs like the 120 ton Ghadir and 600 ton Fateh?
It is not that you cannot use submarines there. Rather, given limited depth, submarines (of any type and size) will have to remain relatively close to the surface. This means they cannot as easily dive beneath the thermocline as in deeper water to hide from sonar (sonar is affected by salinity and temperature gradients). ALso, sonar can be used differently (bottom bounce versus direct path). Further, detection via other means than sonar is more easily accomplished (e.g. by Magnetic Anomaly Detector), which is why e.g. the German navy uses special a-magnetic steel on its boats, with a view to operations in the Baltic Sea. (Type 212A and predecessors)

Therm1.JPG

The wavy dotted line is the thermocline.
http://edgem21.blogspot.nl/2015/10/thermocline.html

sonar_layers.jpg


http://uboat.net/articles/45.html
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/sonar/index.htm (chapter 2)
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/3461-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-asw-part-1/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/asw3.htm


asw-sensors.gif

Just to illustrate the differences:

Persian Gulf
Average depth 50 m (160 ft)
Max. depth 90 m (300 ft)

Baltic Sea
Average depth 55 m (180 ft)
Max. depth 459 m (1,506 ft)

Red Sea
Average depth 490 m (1,610 ft)
Max. depth 2,211 m (7,254 ft)

Arabian Sea
Average depth 2,734 m (8,970 ft)
Max. depth 4,652 m (15,262 ft)

http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/arabiansea.htm
http://www.quickgs.com/list-of-major-seas-of-world/

Did you forget the fact that KSA has the longest borders (2000 km almost) along the Red Sea - one of the most strategic seas in the world and one of the most busy traffic routes? The gateway to the Mediterranean Sea next door and also the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.

The Red Sea has a length of 2,250 km, max. width of 355 km, an average depth of 490 m and a max depth of 2,211 m. So it is not a shallow sea or comparable to the Gulf.

Also UAE has direct access to the Sea of Oman.
No, I did not. But even from KSA point of view, being in the Arabian Sea offers advantages such as greater freedom of movement (see depth comparisons above) and straddling multiple sea lanes (including those going east), not just the route via the Suez canal.

ThermoclineGraphic.gif


d61ebc19f39134862b5f8c91e39b2559.jpg

AFAIK there is only a GULF of Oman. "Three comparatively smaller seas – Gulf of Aden, Red sea and Gulf of Oman are considered as the part of Arabian sea." http://www.quickgs.com/list-of-major-seas-of-world/
arabsea.gif
 
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In wartime a submarine can carry out a number of missions including:
  • Denial of sea areas to an enemy
  • Surveillance and information gathering
  • Landing of special operations forces
  • Attack of land targets.
  • Protection of task forces and merchant shipping
We should first see which roles would the RSNF requires in order to maintain a submarine force.

First we establish the requirement, then we move on to the platform required to fulfill these tasks.
They only have the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea to operate in.

Secondly who would want to attack the Saudi's, because it would not be possible from land as they are already surrounded by GCC states.

From the sea, only a blue water navy would be able to attack them, which we all know are pretty capable, and Saudi's stand no chance against them.

Let us first establish,
Why do the Saudi's need a submarine force?

KSA copy.jpg
 
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In wartime a submarine can carry out a number of missions including:
  • Denial of sea areas to an enemy
  • Surveillance and information gathering
  • Landing of special operations forces
  • Attack of land targets.
  • Protection of task forces and merchant shipping
We should first see which roles would the RSNF requires in order to maintain a submarine force.

First we establish the requirement, then we move on to the platform required to fulfill these tasks.
They only have the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea to operate in.

Secondly who would want to attack the Saudi's, because it would not be possible from land as they are already surrounded by GCC states.

From the sea, only a blue water navy would be able to attack them, which we all know are pretty capable, and Saudi's stand no chance against them.

Let us first establish,
Why do the Saudi's need a submarine force?

View attachment 372363
Put yourself in their shoes, and then tell me why.
 
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