Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA

[sancho]

Dont you think Kaveri, like Arjun, Akash and many indigenous projects are being shelved in favour of foreign vendors? This is a parallel which we can never reject. GRTE is just getting the blame. Already this engine have tested successfully in Russia. But still?

None of them are shelfed, but most of them has turned out to not be suitable to the requirements of the forces (Akash don't has any issues afaik), some times they didn't even met the basic requirements. Kaveri was flight tested on an IL76, but was just 1 engine of 4, so it wasn't critical to fly the aircraft, it just was tested in the air and not only in ground tests as before, so just took a minor step forward in the general development, nothing more. It is our habit to celebrate any babystep in developments, like the role out of one of several LCA prototypes, or achiving IOC 1, to think that anything important was achived, when it was not. ADA and DRDO might want to celebrate that to distract from the delays and failures they created, but it doesn't mean that they can deliver our forces what was planned for the defence of the country and as long that is not happening, we will remain with foreign procurements, which isn't a bad thing either as long as we aren't overdependent on it.

GTRE "must" be blamed for promising to develop an engine with certain specs for the LCA fighter, where they failed. They "must" be blamed on the fact that even they now have no hope in upgrading Kaveri to the required level alone and prefers foreign help (IAF is blocking the co-development with Snecma, not GTRE). Which means they overestimated their capabilities badly and the result effected the whole fighter development.
We have to call a failure of the scientist a failure and take them accountable for that, not just finding excuses for them and when our forces and MoD is then forced to buy foreign stuff, because of this development failure, we falsely blame them for not supporting Indian industry, because that's easier than admiting a failure.

If we want GTRE to learn, we have to blame them, because only then they will start to look at their mistakes in the project and will learn from it!

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

None of them are shelfed, but most of them has turned out to not be suitable to the requirements of the forces (Akash don't has any issues afaik), some times they didn't even met the basic requirements. Kaveri was flight tested on an IL76, but was just 1 engine of 4, so it wasn't critical to fly the aircraft, it just was tested in the air and not only in ground tests as before, so just took a minor step forward in the general development, nothing more. It is our habit to celebrate any babystep in developments, like the role out of one of several LCA prototypes, or achiving IOC 1, to think that anything important was achived, when it was not. ADA and DRDO might want to celebrate that to distract from the delays and failures they created, but it doesn't mean that they can deliver our forces what was planned for the defence of the country and as long that is not happening, we will remain with foreign procurements, which isn't a bad thing either as long as we aren't overdependent on it.

GTRE "must" be blamed for promising to develop an engine with certain specs for the LCA fighter, where they failed. They "must" be blamed on the fact that even they now have no hope in upgrading Kaveri to the required level alone and prefers foreign help (IAF is blocking the co-development with Snecma, not GTRE). Which means they overestimated their capabilities badly and the result effected the whole fighter development.
We have to call a failure of the scientist a failure and take them accountable for that, not just finding excuses for them and when our forces and MoD is then forced to buy foreign stuff, because of this development failure, we falsely blame them for not supporting Indian industry, because that's easier than admiting a failure.

If we want GTRE to learn, we have to blame them, because only then they will start to look at their mistakes in the project and will learn from it!

Technologies take time to master. IAF give some requirements, by the time they develop it, the IAF upgrades it again, and again and again. Why cant the IAF operate the aircraft and upgrade it later?
Akash induction was delayed as we all know. Arjun, despite DRDO and AVADI doing everything Army asked for, is still not being inducted.

 

[narcon]

Jet engine basics:
Testing:

Development:

Must see:

 

[kaykay]

Dont you think Kaveri, like Arjun, Akash and many indigenous projects are being shelved in favour of foreign vendors? This is a parallel which we can never reject. GRTE is just getting the blame. Already this engine have tested successfully in Russia. But still?

Yes brother and I am all for Indigenous engines but I just want It not to be linked with AMCA project rather an independent project. Its time we learn from our previous mistakes!! For instances, when Kaveri's performance was not up to the mark, hal ordered american engines in 2003 and which delivered only in 2006-07. We could have save many years if we would have delinked kaveri engine to Tejas project from start. Thats all I meant.

 

[sancho]

Technologies take time to master. IAF give some requirements, by the time they develop it, the IAF upgrades it again, and again and again. Why cant the IAF operate the aircraft and upgrade it later?

Again you are blaming the wrong side! Why did IAF required upgrades on the engine thrust? Because Kaveri turned out to be much heavier than initially planned, because LCA as a whole turned out to be much heavier than initially planned, because the airframe of the LCA turned out to be much draggier than initially planned. Why are they asking for modernised avionics and EW? Because the avionics and EW initially planned, was aimed on induction nearly a decade ago. If it was inducted back then, it now would naturally go through the upgrades too.
So if you want to blame somebody, blame those that couldn't meet the requriments and timelines, which as a result turns out into changes of IAF requirements again. We can't afford to use Indian techs and systems, only because they are "Indian", but because they are capable to be used in the defence of the country and therefor they have to meet certain requirements.
Arjun Mk1 is inducted, MK2 will be, the question is only in what numbers, since it doesn't fit the threat enviroment of India today anymore, since it was developed mainly with Pakistan in mind.

 

[Dillinger]

And now the following from the start:
Who has the Attention Deficit Syndrome?
See your beggining posts here:

View attachment 24567

While India has its prototype tested by Russia.
Ukraine does not have such a credential/

And? It is perfectly in sync with what I said.

"There is was only one nation in the world which was willing to part with critical engine tech."

Indeed cogency cannot be expected here.

NO other country has ever offered up engine tech to another. Not a single one, whether said countries happen to have better technology is a different matter.

India having a prototype has nothing to do with this, the Chinese engine program is even more advanced than ours and they still went to Ukraine.

Aerospace cooperation between Ukraine and china

Go through the OP's article in the above thread for starters.

 

[SQ8]

And? It is perfectly in sync with what I said.

"There is was only one nation in the world which was willing to part with critical engine tech."

Indeed cogency cannot be expected here.

NO other country has ever offered up engine tech to another. Not a single one, whether said countries happen to have better technology is a different matter.

India having a prototype has nothing to do with this, the Chinese engine program is even more advanced than ours and they still went to Ukraine.

Apart from going to Ukraine, there is also the issue of knowing when to ask someone to hold your hand.. even if it is in something supposedly as trivial as Project management.

 

[Dillinger]

Apart from going to Ukraine, there is also the issue of knowing when to ask someone to hold your hand.. even if it is in something supposedly as trivial as Project management.

Leave that be. Apparently I must also deal with issues of comprehension now.

Although you must reprimand Buttsy for me, he humiliated me quite severely on this thread. Called me a failure, that good for nothing tub of lard!

 

[SQ8]

Leave that be. Apparently I must also deal with issues of comprehension now.

Although you must reprimand Buttsy for me, he humiliated me quite severely on this thread. Called me a failure, that good for nothing tub of lard!

Remind him of his Bhatta-ness. which he hides under a fake Kashmiriat.

 

[Dillinger]

Remind him of his Bhatta-ness. which he hides under a fake Kashmiriat.

Which reminds me. Have you gone through the Henderson report wrt the 62 fiasco? Quite enlightening, specially the role that the AHQ and the civilian intelligence apparatus under Mullick played in that particular mess.

 

[Dillinger]

@narcon Also for a simple verification sans technical details go through the following-

Ukraine upheaval puts China arms deals in jeopardy | South China Morning Post

For a nation that doesn't design ("build" in the conventional sense from the ground up) engines they've been doing more in the field than even we have in terms of arms import.

China and Ukraine Enhance Cooperation in Aviation Industry | Economy / Business | Worldwide News Ukraine

Inside China: Why Putin's intervention in Ukraine is bad news for China - Washington Times

Read the last article carefully.

 

[SQ8]

Which reminds me. Have you gone through the Henderson report wrt the 62 fiasco? Quite enlightening, specially the role that the AHQ and the civilian intelligence apparatus under Mullick played in that particular mess.

A Pattern of self-deception as aptly put by a newspiece. It seems the Indian Machinery was more busy covering their "posts" of power within than worrying about external threats. Interestingly, while the IA seemed to have learnt certain lessons from this humiliation(due to senior leadership of the military and civilian sides) and applied it a little three years later.. the IAF seems to have ignored it altogether and still acted more like a flying club rather than an Air force.. a charge put on the IA before on them Acting like a mob rather than an Army(due to lack of training and leadership).


Rather omniously in my view, many of the mistaken assumption by the Indian leadership then had mental "mirrors" in those of the Pakistani leadership in 65 and Kargil. Sadly, there was no "Henderson Report" on these disasters(or if there was one, it was buried to protect the heaven sent khaki and brass in Pakistan).

 

[Dillinger]

A Pattern of self-deception as aptly put by a newspiece. It seems the Indian Machinery was more busy covering their "posts" of power within than worrying about external threats. Interestingly, while the IA seemed to have learnt certain lessons from this humiliation(due to senior leadership of the military and civilian sides) and applied it a little three years later.. the IAF seems to have ignored it altogether and still acted more like a flying club rather than an Air force.. a charge put on the IA before on them Acting like a mob rather than an Army(due to lack of training and leadership).


Rather omniously in my view, many of the mistaken assumption by the Indian leadership then had mental "mirrors" in those of the Pakistani leadership in 65 and Kargil. Sadly, there was no "Henderson Report" on these disasters(or if there was one, it was buried to protect the heaven sent khaki and brass in Pakistan).

Mirrored Kargil quite a lot in a way. Specially the notion that isolated posts could be defended by a few determined soldiers (irregardless of the fact that they had no established lines of communication) and that the opposition would not retaliate with a significantly larger quantum of force in order to avoid attrition and escalations (sans the whole angle of nuclear overhang).

The thing to note here is that Nehru gets most of the flack for 62, people tend to forget that our then Raksha Mantri and elements in the AHQ were also every bit as responsible for the fiasco.

Although the Henderson report is also buried in the sense that the GOI still considers it to be confidential and top secret ergo it has never actually been released by Indian authorities for public consumption. But yes, the existence of the report and many of its observations have been known by the general defence enthusiasts here for quite some time.

 

[narcon]

@narcon Also for a simple verification sans technical details go through the following-

Ukraine upheaval puts China arms deals in jeopardy | South China Morning Post

For a nation that doesn't design ("build" in the conventional sense from the ground up) engines they've been doing more in the field than even we have in terms of arms import.

China and Ukraine Enhance Cooperation in Aviation Industry | Economy / Business | Worldwide News Ukraine

Inside China: Why Putin's intervention in Ukraine is bad news for China - Washington Times

Read the last article carefully.

Ukraine does not build/manufacture jet engines. Period.
Why would an Airbus = India end up with Embraer of Brazil = Ukraine in this case?
Whatever little technology possessed by Ukraine in this field is Russian - as per your Washington times report/

Through Ukraine, China has obtained some key Russian technologies, including the AI-222-25 turbofan jet engine

You are boxing in the air!

 

[Dillinger]

Ukraine does not build/manufacture jet engines. Period.
Why would an Airbus = India end up with Embraer of Brazil = Ukraine in this case?
Whatever little technology possessed by Ukraine in this field is Russian - as per your Washington times report/



You are boxing in the air!

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL THIS WHILE!*

THAT UKRAINE INHERITED QUITE A BIT OF TECH FROM THE USSR SINCE IT WAS PART OF THE USSR. AGAIN, THE ORIGINAL POINT WAS WHICH COUNTRY HAS ACCESS TO ENGINE TECH AND IS WILLING TO SHARE IT FREELY. NOT WHICH COUNTRY HAS MORE ADVANCED TECH OR BUILDS MORE ENGINES. WHILE THE AMERICANS OR THE FRENCH ARE UNDOUBTEDLY AHEAD OF THE UKRAINIANS THEY ARE UNWILLING TO SHARE EVEN THE TINIEST PORTION OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE, EVEN 80S LEVEL TECH.

ERGO THE POINT THAT NO JV WITH ANY NATION WILL TEACH US HOW TO DESIGN THE HOT SECTION OF THE ENGINE OR FABRICATE THERMAL BARRIER COATINGS ETC.

ITS THE WASHINGTON POST WHICH IS ASSERTING THE POINT YOU PICKED FROM THEIR ARTICLE.

IS SOMETHING CONGENITALLY FLAWED IN TERMS OF COMPREHENSION AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED?

* "Soviets made A LOT of jet engines among other things, the data/tech/blueprints were left by the Soviets when the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic became plain old Ukraine. Comprende?" (Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA | Page 2)

SIMILARLY, UKRAINE HAS NEVER BUILT A SINGLE LAUNCH VEHICLE OF ITS OWN EITHER YET INDIA (WHICH ACTUALLY HAS A PRETTY LARGE SPACE PROGRAM AND OPERATIONAL LAUNCH VEHICLES) APPROACHED UKRAINE FOR SEMI-CRYO ENGINE TECH.

"This is a request for guidance. Request that the Department provide the U.S. position regarding Ukraine company Yuzhnoye's contract to prepare blueprints for a semi-cryogenic, liquid-oxygen/kerosene-fueled rocket engine for the Indian Space Research Organization, as detailed below, and especially whether the U.S. would have any objections to fulfillment of the contract."

Cable: 07KYIV2245_a

AGAIN, THIS WAS NOT TECH DEVELOPED BY THE UKRAINIANS BUT RATHER KNOWLEDGE INHERITED FROM THE USSR.

@kbd-raaf @sancho @Abingdonboy @Oscar @Skull and Bones @Gessler @SarthakGanguly Can someone please help this fellow out, I can't make this any simpler than the above. My tumor's acting up again and whispering horrid things to me!