Kargil Operations the PAF perspective

[Tamilnadu]

Don't you people get tired of repeating same lines, i guess since it doesn't cost to post here so no harm in repeating same nonsense.....

What can one do if one dsnt get the answers,so have to repeat the same things,for all the victories there must be something to showoff ,no ?,its a genuine question any sane person should ask.

 

[Windjammer]

What can one do if one dsnt get the answers,so have to repeat the same things,for all the victories there must be something to showoff ,no ?,its a genuine question any sane person should ask.

A sane person would realise that we are not exactly discussing any wars here, there are plenty of threads for you to get your answers and it's advisable to look both sides of a coin.

 

[thesolar65]

You are right, we should discuss our disputes have table meetings and conferences to sort out our issues and above all
abide by UN resolutions .... very simple solution.

See, Frankly I do not know about the details of UN resolution. There are many experts here who can answer that. And for that You can complain in UN. See, again we have boarder dispute with China also. They transgress, but they do not come like thieves in night time and occupy heights or lands which is deserted in adverse weather.

But you want it by force, or by crook right? How do you except that we will not retaliate. And as one poster commented that you would have bargained after successful occupation. Do you think our country would have allowed that to any govt.? If we would not have succeeded we would have definitely opened up other fronts. Did you visualize that you would have sustained a full scale war at that time. No F-16 would have been able to stop us from reoccupying our land however good they are against us (BTW they are good or not also can be answered by experts also).

Only talk and talk can resolve the dispute.

And once bitten twice shy.

How do you expects us to vacate Siachen? How can we trust you?

 

[LadyFinger]

The reality of the world is, might is right!

Rest is all BS.

Occupying other peoples land and playing innocent, trying to engage in non-ending bickering, beating about the bush.

You will know soon ....

This is what the world is. Hence, we have to work at our alliances. And make peace within ourselves

Look at middle east, a war of money, oil, might. 'Lashkars' are being developed, billions of money going in their training.
.
Every dog will have their day. Eventually!

 

[thesolar65]

Status quo is the only solution. Take it or leave it!! War? Nah!! But force it, then we are ready!!

 

[LadyFinger]

Status quo is the only solution. Take it or leave it!! War? Nah!! But force it, then we are ready!!

We will not force war like that.
So don't worry

.

 

[Namer Afzal Khan]

People praising political elites about their standings during war must not forget that PPPP and PMLn both are involved in the leaks about Khalistan Tehreek and Kashmir's Mujahideen to US in a failed try to prove their allegiance/loyalty only to assure their tenure/rule in the country. Nawaz Sharif just couldn't face the pressure during Kargil that he fainted because he is not the man of that type. All that we can blame Musharaf & Military here but one thing for sure that there is another side of story as well. It was a call from US that Nawaz Sharif simply couldn't resist and acted as knowing nothing and played innocent being forced by military. Even the NS was briefed or not but he had it on mind that if anything went wrong, just play innocent and put the blame on Military. Didn't the lovers of NS hear his speech saying that "Yes we back-stabbed the Vajpayi government and felt ashamed". It was NS who painted the Kargil so ugly while failing miserably on political front otherwise the story would have been different today but as a national sport of our corrupt political leaders and their followers, put the blame on Military as usual.

In my opinion, we can say that Kargil was not planned well or without getting into confidence with two other Military Institutions but was also due to many reasons and results are not what our fellows are believing that too painted by so called political innocents. Surely the plan was to go in non-uniform and do the needful so the role of PAF was not needed at all to cross the border and do the action as it was not a war at all or a full fledged attack by any military. The set foundation was it has nothing to do with Army so why would PAF cross the border. Seems like it was planned as the area would be taken by Freedom Fighters and diplomacy will play the role on International Forum so that Kashmir issue would be resolved but who knows the political lions will fail and faint. Musharaf being aggrieved and hurt by treason of NS, paid him back well that many will learn the lesson because NS & Co actually back-stabbed Mushuraf & Military by going against plan while obeying the masters.

Who failed to free Kashmir in 1948 and in 1965. I think its really easy to talk against these politicians and not admitting our own mistake. Sir, our army elites were not allowing the soldiers to retaliate against indian attacks way before the famous US call. One of the officer said that when one of the commanding officer finished his tenure of commanding officer during kargil war, the Shikari intercepted the message of indians that "looks like the command has been changed because these guys are hiding like rats". So nawaz sharif was not leading the war, our army elites were doing so. It is their fault not nawaz sharif fault if they failed to deliver the results.
One more correction sir. It was not pml-n who gave the names of freedom fighters or khalistan movement. It was our famous PPP who was also removed during general asif nawaaz time because it was involved in treacherous works. I admit that pml-n is not good when it comes to governance but this does not mean that you start blaming it for military blunders. Kargil was mishandle by us not by politicians.

You can write history for Pakistan.isnt how the Pakistan history is written,you won all the wars with India and yet a map from 50 till now will show how much it has changed,i wish Paksiatn many more such victories.

I hope you have the guts to say the same for yourself. How can you celebrate kargil as a victory. What victory? we came in, we had some fun and we went away and you did was simple old defense. Alhamdulillah,we took some strategic points such as 5353.

People praising political elites about their standings during war must not forget that PPPP and PMLn both are involved in the leaks about Khalistan Tehreek and Kashmir's Mujahideen to US in a failed try to prove their allegiance/loyalty only to assure their tenure/rule in the country. Nawaz Sharif just couldn't face the pressure during Kargil that he fainted because he is not the man of that type. All that we can blame Musharaf & Military here but one thing for sure that there is another side of story as well. It was a call from US that Nawaz Sharif simply couldn't resist and acted as knowing nothing and played innocent being forced by military. Even the NS was briefed or not but he had it on mind that if anything went wrong, just play innocent and put the blame on Military. Didn't the lovers of NS hear his speech saying that "Yes we back-stabbed the Vajpayi government and felt ashamed". It was NS who painted the Kargil so ugly while failing miserably on political front otherwise the story would have been different today but as a national sport of our corrupt political leaders and their followers, put the blame on Military as usual.

In my opinion, we can say that Kargil was not planned well or without getting into confidence with two other Military Institutions but was also due to many reasons and results are not what our fellows are believing that too painted by so called political innocents. Surely the plan was to go in non-uniform and do the needful so the role of PAF was not needed at all to cross the border and do the action as it was not a war at all or a full fledged attack by any military. The set foundation was it has nothing to do with Army so why would PAF cross the border. Seems like it was planned as the area would be taken by Freedom Fighters and diplomacy will play the role on International Forum so that Kashmir issue would be resolved but who knows the political lions will fail and faint. Musharaf being aggrieved and hurt by treason of NS, paid him back well that many will learn the lesson because NS & Co actually back-stabbed Mushuraf & Military by going against plan while obeying the masters.

and i wonder why the patriotic Musharraf who even insulted the army by his cowardice acts, did not do anything for kashmir during his own tenure. He sure knew how to show street power against lawyers on 12 may 2007 but failed to do so against indians during his tenure. Have you forgotten that the so called coward politician did not get pressurized by the US when they were forcing him not to do nuclear tests? Have you also forgotten who shook hands with
Atal Bihari Vajpayee during SAARC conference. Who submitted to US conditions after 9/11? Bad politician or Musharraf. Ayub khan was good and so was Zia ul haq but musharraf is nowhere near what they did.

See, Frankly I do not know about the details of UN resolution. There are many experts here who can answer that. And for that You can complain in UN. See, again we have boarder dispute with China also. They transgress, but they do not come like thieves in night time and occupy heights or lands which is deserted in adverse weather.

But you want it by force, or by crook right? How do you except that we will not retaliate. And as one poster commented that you would have bargained after successful occupation. Do you think our country would have allowed that to any govt.? If we would not have succeeded we would have definitely opened up other fronts. Did you visualize that you would have sustained a full scale war at that time. No F-16 would have been able to stop us from reoccupying our land however good they are against us (BTW they are good or not also can be answered by experts also).

Only talk and talk can resolve the dispute.

And once bitten twice shy.

How do you expects us to vacate Siachen? How can we trust you?

Did we not sustained you for almost 70 years? Have you forgotten 65 war? What did you achieved? you were lucky cause United States was pressurizing us not to retaliate against you but who stopped you? Why did you agreed to the seize fire call? You should also stop praising yourself. Allah Almighty is our protector and this the only reason why Pakistan still exists on the world's map.

 

[Sneaker]

Typical Indian boxing above his weight, even to carry out strikes in your own territory, you needed assistance from US and Israel.... you characters who take pride in capturing Pigeons and shooting down balloons had to bring in bollywood to add masala to your propaganda habits. one thing is quite amusing...India be like the Basanti, you can come and do anything to me in my house but don't expect me to come over to your side.

Tell this to families of your soldiers killed by Indian airstrikes. Tell them that the bombs that killed their loved ones were israeli, targeting pods from US and aircrafts were from russia.. tell them that all the while their loved ones were being bombed to pieces, "zabaaz" PAF had IAF aircrafts missile locked. Tell the defeated soldiers that while their colleagues died due to IAF bombs, PAF was "protecting" them..may be that will cheer up the defeated force and sorrowful army... Or do you not care because the majority soldiers targeted by IAF were from G&B? Had they been from punjab, might PAF have acted differently?
It takes very high degree of convoluted logic to celebrate an airforce that stood moot spectator to their colleagues being bombed to oblivion..

 

[LadyFinger]

Do you fancy spewing BS regularly or is it your innate nature?

In any case, no one is interested in your sadistic ramblings. And never mind if next time any such thing happened, it will be the whole of Pakistan that would storm there with their armed forces.

.

Tell this to families of your soldiers killed by Indian airstrikes. Tell them that the bombs that killed their loved ones were israeli, targeting pods from US and aircrafts were from russia.. tell them that all the while their loved ones were being bombed to pieces, "zabaaz" PAF had IAF aircrafts missile locked. Tell the defeated soldiers that while their colleagues died due to IAF bombs, PAF was "protecting" them..may be that will cheer up the defeated force and sorrowful army... Or do you not care because the majority soldiers targeted by IAF were from G&B? Had they been from punjab, might PAF have acted differently?
It takes very high degree of convoluted logic to celebrate an airforce that stood moot spectator to their colleagues being bombed to oblivion..

 

[Windjammer]

Tell this to families of your soldiers killed by Indian airstrikes. Tell them that the bombs that killed their loved ones were israeli, targeting pods from US and aircrafts were from russia.. tell them that all the while their loved ones were being bombed to pieces, "zabaaz" PAF had IAF aircrafts missile locked. Tell the defeated soldiers that while their colleagues died due to IAF bombs, PAF was "protecting" them..may be that will cheer up the defeated force and sorrowful army... Or do you not care because the majority soldiers targeted by IAF were from G&B? Had they been from punjab, might PAF have acted differently?
It takes very high degree of convoluted logic to celebrate an airforce that stood moot spectator to their colleagues being bombed to oblivion..

Well, these soldiers were fighting a war which they took to their enemy and even without air support gave him a damn bloody nose, on the contrary, what did you tell the families of your soldiers who were slaughtered in Sri Lanka, despite your mighty Agni Pankh flying some 70 000 sorties, some 2000 never returned and what did you tell the families of those parlayed on the border for a whole year in a faint hope Pakistan would blink and ended up driving over their own mines....professionalism at full display and for your cheap shot nonsense , let me remind you that both the recipients of Pakistan's highest gallantry award belong to G&B, however we often hear treatment of Dalits in Indian society, hate to think what horrors they face in the IA, that's if they are even allowed to join.

Do you fancy spewing BS regularly or is it your innate nature?

In any case, no one is interested in your sadistic ramblings. And never mind if next time any such thing happened, it will be the whole of Pakistan that would storm there with their armed forces.

.

You know admiring someones rosy cheeks is natural but these losers would smack them self just to get a red face.

 

[Sneaker]

Do you fancy spewing BS regularly or is it your innate nature?

In any case, no one is interested in your sadistic ramblings. And never mind if next time any such thing happened, it will be the whole of Pakistan that would storm there with their armed forces.

.

LOL... we have seen that, dealt with that... now get back to your homework...

Well, these soldiers were fighting a war which they took to their enemy and even without air support gave him a damn bloody nose, on the contrary, what did you tell the families of your soldiers who were slaughtered in Sri Lanka, despite your mighty Agni Pankh flying some 70 000 sorties, some 2000 never returned and what did you tell the families of those parlayed on the border for a whole year in a faint hope Pakistan would blink and ended up driving over their own mines....professionalism at full display and for your cheap shot nonsense , let me remind you that both the recipients of Pakistan's highest gallantry award belong to G&B, however we often hear treatment of Dalits in Indian society, hate to think what horrors they face in the IA, that's if they are even allowed to join.

Again, I wasn't talking about the soldiers who were killed by IAF raids.. I was talking about PAF that stood watching and then gloated that it "locked" on to the ground attack jets of IAF... You should realize that no one would give you a medal for that.. PAF looks nice and pretty locking on, but that is not what airforces are.. they are to shoot enemy down, atleast if they can't give ground support.... the dumbest thing is to gloat that they were watching PA getting bombed in the process.. what kind of person would be proud of that?It wan't govt instruction to stand down, it was PAFs own decision.. either it is a BS that PAF got any lock on any of our A/Cs.. or it is a useless force that couldn't help their own army.... It is not even one-off incident.. PAF didn't intervene when Atlantique was shot down either, which according to pakistan, happened in their own airspace.

 

[LadyFinger]

BS again. Dealt with what?

At least care not to speak when you have nothing to say rather than acting like a jerk. Homework. WTF

LOL... we have seen that, dealt with that... now get back to your homework...



Again, I wasn't talking about the soldiers who were killed by IAF raids.. I was talking about PAF that stood watching and then gloated that it "locked" on to the ground attack jets of IAF... You should realize that no one would give you a medal for that.. PAF looks nice and pretty locking on, but that is not what airforces are.. they are to shoot enemy down, atleast if they can't give ground support.... the dumbest thing is to gloat that they were watching PA getting bombed in the process.. what kind of person would be proud of that?It wan't govt instruction to stand down, it was PAFs own decision.. either it is a BS that PAF got any lock on any of our A/Cs.. or it is a useless force that couldn't help their own army.... It is not even one-off incident.. PAF didn't intervene when Atlantique was shot down either, which according to pakistan, happened in their own airspace.

 

[The Eagle]

Who failed to free Kashmir in 1948 and in 1965. I think its really easy to talk against these politicians and not admitting our own mistake. Sir, our army elites were not allowing the soldiers to retaliate against indian attacks way before the famous US call. One of the officer said that when one of the commanding officer finished his tenure of commanding officer during kargil war, the Shikari intercepted the message of indians that "looks like the command has been changed because these guys are hiding like rats". So nawaz sharif was not leading the war, our army elites were doing so. It is their fault not nawaz sharif fault if they failed to deliver the results.
One more correction sir. It was not pml-n who gave the names of freedom fighters or khalistan movement. It was our famous PPP who was also removed during general asif nawaaz time because it was involved in treacherous works. I admit that pml-n is not good when it comes to governance but this does not mean that you start blaming it for military blunders. Kargil was mishandle by us not by politicians

First of all, before quoting me again, one thing you need to understand that I am not PPPP or PTI supporter nor any other party. I hope that this may help you to understand the situation and words other than being PMLn supporter alone.

It is also easy to blame military and not admitting the treason committed by politicians and here the whole post is summarized. Rest about blaming the PPPP alone, it is like that once Police arrested a thief, an International level thief I would say and soon realizing his weight and demand, was also charged being terrorist, rapist, bugler and what not because that was too easy to do so and give a rest to the other unsolved cases so this is what happens in-case of PPPP. While clearing out NS about leaks of Kashmir, proves that you are missing details and I would request you to go through the data available to you or nay source but to make it worth you have to look at it without PMLN Optic/glass.

Since 1947 till today, every blame is put on Military very easily because all of them politicians were not involved in anything like start it from recent leaks and to what-not that no one can imagine.

and i wonder why the patriotic Musharraf who even insulted the army by his cowardice acts, did not do anything for kashmir during his own tenure. He sure knew how to show street power against lawyers on 12 may 2007 but failed to do so against indians during his tenure. Have you forgotten that the so called coward politician did not get pressurized by the US when they were forcing him not to do nuclear tests? Have you also forgotten who shook hands with
Atal Bihari Vajpayee during SAARC conference. Who submitted to US conditions after 9/11? Bad politician or Musharraf. Ayub khan was good and so was Zia ul haq but musharraf is nowhere near what they did.

and I am not even a Musharraf supporter so the afterwards discussion would be easy to understand.

If Musharraf had done anything being an Army man doesn't allow anyone else to insult the Institution. The claim of credibility of N-Test was very expected to me, I mean it was something like waited in response because such claim is always made by almost every PMLn even people like Danial Aziz. It is same as like as even Choudhary Shujat said once "We forced NS to do so" so every party availed the chance to take credibility and luckily PMLn was ruling. Everyone is aware, the N-Test was not in the guts of NS alone even he was engaged in talks with D.C and was under pressure but other participants in the event (Uniformed & Non-Uniformed) played the major rule as well.

Musharraf shook hand with Vajpayee indeed (and I personally liked the dash) and being blamed of to do so but on other hand someone gone too far in the love of them while saying "Yes we back stabbed India by doing so in Kargil" (do you want me to share that video whereby NS crossed the limits in the love of India). Moreover, on one side we lost many lives on LOC while this NS sent mango/saris for Indian PM. It is not meant here to shoot someone Indian but there is a thing called condemn it and lodge protest and show the sorrow upon such event.

Zia was indeed good for NS (PMLn) and such appraisal proves many of things about PMLn/NS that supports the previous dictators but not the one who tried to expose the real face. However, here I will give you another clue that "by some internal sources, in his last days Zia became aware of NS relations and warming love with India/R&AW that was preparing to get rid of him".

My friend, see things from the prospective where the ill-feed of media shouldn't delude you so also, kindly ignore posts and articles posted by a specific media team. Kargil was not alone mishandled by Military that lacked a few things in planning but in wider aspects, we failed miserably on diplomatic ground that those sacrifices are forgotten and the blame was put on Military as usual.

 

[Namer Afzal Khan]

First of all, before quoting me again, one thing you need to understand that I am not PPPP or PTI supporter nor any other party. I hope that this may help you to understand the situation and words other than being PMLn supporter alone.

It is also easy to blame military and not admitting the treason committed by politicians and here the whole post is summarized. Rest about blaming the PPPP alone, it is like that once Police arrested a thief, an International level thief I would say and soon realizing his weight and demand, was also charged being terrorist, rapist, bugler and what not because that was too easy to do so and give a rest to the other unsolved cases so this is what happens in-case of PPPP. While clearing out NS about leaks of Kashmir, proves that you are missing details and I would request you to go through the data available to you or nay source but to make it worth you have to look at it without PMLN Optic/glass.

Since 1947 till today, every blame is put on Military very easily because all of them politicians were not involved in anything like start it from recent leaks and to what-not that no one can imagine.




and I am not even a Musharraf supporter so the afterwards discussion would be easy to understand.

If Musharraf had done anything being an Army man doesn't allow anyone else to insult the Institution. The claim of credibility of N-Test was very expected to me, I mean it was something like waited in response because such claim is always made by almost every PMLn even people like Danial Aziz. It is same as like as even Choudhary Shujat said once "We forced NS to do so" so every party availed the chance to take credibility and luckily PMLn was ruling. Everyone is aware, the N-Test was not in the guts of NS alone even he was engaged in talks with D.C and was under pressure but other participants in the event (Uniformed & Non-Uniformed) played the major rule as well.

Musharraf shook hand with Vajpayee indeed (and I personally liked the dash) and being blamed of to do so but on other hand someone gone too far in the love of them while saying "Yes we back stabbed India by doing so in Kargil" (do you want me to share that video whereby NS crossed the limits in the love of India). Moreover, on one side we lost many lives on LOC while this NS sent mango/saris for Indian PM. It is not meant here to shoot someone Indian but there is a thing called condemn it and lodge protest and show the sorrow upon such event.

Zia was indeed good for NS (PMLn) and such appraisal proves many of things about PMLn/NS that supports the previous dictators but not the one who tried to expose the real face. However, here I will give you another clue that "by some internal sources, in his last days Zia became aware of NS relations and warming love with India/R&AW that was preparing to get rid of him".

My friend, see things from the prospective where the ill-feed of media shouldn't delude you so also, kindly ignore posts and articles posted by a specific media team. Kargil was not alone mishandled by Military that lacked a few things in planning but in wider aspects, we failed miserably on diplomatic ground that those sacrifices are forgotten and the blame was put on Military as usual.

(1) Brother i am not opposing you because as a PML-N supporter. I am no one supporter. As a responsible citizen we should do criticism where it is needed and we should we should appreciate where it is needed. The loyal supporters of Pakistan should be loyal to the government unless and until the government acts against the constitution. Now we can have a full needless debate that currently what are the federal and provincial governments of Pakistan are doing. So lets skip this part. Secondly, everyone in Pakistan is accountable, even the chief of army staff. Criticizing the chief does not mean that i am insulting the institution because the institution is nothing without its chief. The army follows the likes and dislikes of its chief. The chief is the only driver of this institution. Therefore the chief will always be evaluated as an individual not as an institution. This my view and you can differ. I am not insulting the army.

(2) I don't know your source of information, but my source of information is my uncle who was ADC to the chief of army staff. Therefore who gave the list of kashmiris and khlaistan movement is well known and contrary to what you said, Nawaz gave order to the army chief in 1992 to wage a war against india to free kashmir. Again it was nawaz who helped the bosnian when the so called UN was favoring the other side over the muslims. Therefore i have information about what zia-ul-haq used to think about nawaz.

(3) Shujaat hussain, Gohar Ayub, and Sheikh Rasheed etc all take credit for the Nuclear Attacks but don't forget that who was the decision maker. In the same way, Musharraf also had gohar ayub, sheikh rasheed, and shujaat husein etc available to him but he did not say "No" to The US. All those who say that during musharraf era we saw unprecedented economic growth. All i can do is just laugh at them because while the world declared us unsafe because we were fighting their terrorist, the world was investing heavily in India and we did not get our fair part and all of this would not have taken place if Musharraf had played his cards differently. Those who say that we could not say NO to the US just like Iran does because we do not have oil reserves, are just big liars. We had resources in the past and we still have them now but i don't know whether is it a conspiracy or not that we are not allowed to use those.

(4) My relative was the commanding officer of 11 NLI during kargil war. That's why i am convinced that history is usually written by those who don't even know the ABC of the ground situation and unfortunately their narrative becomes the narrative of the masses. So i know why i am bashing musharraf.


What you are narrative is the general narrative which most of us know but just because it is the general narrative does not mean that it is what reality is.

 

[AUz]

PAF has always dominated inferior iaf and inshallah it will continue to do so!

PAF kill ratio against iaf is breathtaking for us, a nightmare for them. lol