Kargil Operations the PAF perspective

[GrinningMan]

PAF has always dominated inferior iaf and inshallah it will continue to do so!

PAF kill ratio against iaf is breathtaking for us, a nightmare for them. lol

But pakistan has always managed to run with its tail between its legs after being given a response.

 

[The Eagle]

(1) Brother i am not opposing you because as a PML-N supporter. I am no one supporter. As a responsible citizen we should do criticism where it is needed and we should we should appreciate where it is needed. The loyal supporters of Pakistan should be loyal to the government unless and until the government acts against the constitution. Now we can have a full needless debate that currently what are the federal and provincial governments of Pakistan are doing. So lets skip this part. Secondly, everyone in Pakistan is accountable, even the chief of army staff. Criticizing the chief does not mean that i am insulting the institution because the institution is nothing without its chief. The army follows the likes and dislikes of its chief. The chief is the only driver of this institution. Therefore the chief will always be evaluated as an individual not as an institution. This my view and you can differ. I am not insulting the army.

(2) I don't know your source of information, but my source of information is my uncle who was ADC to the chief of army staff. Therefore who gave the list of kashmiris and khlaistan movement is well known and contrary to what you said, Nawaz gave order to the army chief in 1992 to wage a war against india to free kashmir. Again it was nawaz who helped the bosnian when the so called UN was favoring the other side over the muslims. Therefore i have information about what zia-ul-haq used to think about nawaz.

(3) Shujaat hussain, Gohar Ayub, and Sheikh Rasheed etc all take credit for the Nuclear Attacks but don't forget that who was the decision maker. In the same way, Musharraf also had gohar ayub, sheikh rasheed, and shujaat husein etc available to him but he did not say "No" to The US. All those who say that during musharraf era we saw unprecedented economic growth. All i can do is just laugh at them because while the world declared us unsafe because we were fighting their terrorist, the world was investing heavily in India and we did not get our fair part and all of this would not have taken place if Musharraf had played his cards differently. Those who say that we could not say NO to the US just like Iran does because we do not have oil reserves, are just big liars. We had resources in the past and we still have them now but i don't know whether is it a conspiracy or not that we are not allowed to use those.

(4) My relative was the commanding officer of 11 NLI during kargil war. That's why i am convinced that history is usually written by those who don't even know the ABC of the ground situation and unfortunately their narrative becomes the narrative of the masses. So i know why i am bashing musharraf.


What you are narrative is the general narrative which most of us know but just because it is the general narrative does not mean that it is what reality is.

You are generalizing things too much and dragging in the different topics at once. No-one is anti-government here.

The topic alone was about Kargil and not to praise NS with his other achievements to make the case stronger. It was Gujral, thanking NS for providing the details of persons (terrorists for India) in Kashmir. So also, NS unconditional love for India is not hidden but that is not the topic in hand, so chapter closed here.

A man in uniform cannot understand the chemistry of diplomacy so indeed an Ex-Military can tell you what really happened on the ground and flaws in planning by the view of a uniform person while I am saying that it was not failure or ill-planning of Musharraf alone (I am not supporting him) but we failed on diplomatic front. NS took advantage of the moment by posing himself that "we back-stabbed India" while playing the victim card here as he was sacked by Musharraf. So the loyalty part/formula applies to him as well that he shouldn't have created such issue of an internal thing on International Forum which is clear to show the tears and play innocent. He could have thought for a while that what exactly he is doing by discussing the Kargil in such manners so indeed it was a mindset of him to give a chance for demoralization while to be portrayed as innocent. The loyal is to be loyal to the Pakistan but couldn't be loyal to a corrupt, manipulator or a liar (whosoever fits in these categories).

If this is the rule or formula that the one has done this once, that once, etc twice so shouldn't be accountable or in-case of NS then the Military has done a-lot for Pakistan as well and who knows what Musharraf would have done so such benefit should be given to him as well but my stand is, accountability across the board. NS cannot be awarded a clean chit here in this matter alone.

This is all about a team set-up that plays together and be blamed together, for the loss if any and in-case of a win, cheers for all.

 

[AUz]

But pakistan has always managed to run with its tail between its legs after being given a response.

Lol, when?

In 1948 , Pakistanis got THE MOST strategically important lands in Kashmir. Pakistan captured population centers of Gilgit , Skardu etc and secured access to central Asia...Cutting India off from Central Asian route..and hence containing poor indians in useless gigantic plains .... Where India would've got entire Kashmir due to Hindu treachery ...it only got some parts..and that too which are strategically of very less importance...and made even less important due to Indo-Pak water-accords ..

In 1965 , Pakistan defeated Indian attack on Lahore city and forced indians to retreat , captured strategically important Indian towns like Khem Kharan , captured strategically important Indian supply-lines like Muna Bao railway station. Although the land war wasn't decisive, the air-war was won by Pakistan undisputedly. PAF (Pakistan Air Force) just decimated the five times larger IAF (Indian Air Force), and all this eventually forced India to face the humiliation of signing an agreement of stalemate with SEVEN TIMES smaller nation-that was badly outgunned and outnumbered during the war... India's OWN media back then called it as "giving a walkover to Pakistan."

When was the last time you saw a seven times larger nation signing an agreement of "stalemate antebellum" with a seven times smaller nation? That's a military victory for the smaller state.

In 1999 Kargil war , just 5000 Pakistani troops+fighters got 30,000 indian soldiers with their pants down. At the end of the war , Pakistan captured strategically important Indian heights such as point 5353 , Dalu Nag , Saddle Ridge etc. They STILL hold these Indian territories and over-look NH-1 and Indian supplies to Siachen (Highest battleground in the world).

So in every war against W.Pakistan (Today's Pakistan) , Indian forces have faced humiliation from SEVEN TIMES smaller nation..When indians faced their EQUALS in size (Chinese in 62)...they were a$$-raped by Chinese But Pakistanis faced SEVEN TIMES larger nation and stood their ground pretty solidly...

I'll say quite Alpha.

180 million Pakistanis contained 1200 million indians ...

And talking about running with tails in the butt--that would be india in 2002 when india mobilized army and then UNILATERALLY withdrew and back out of the stand off that it started And that too, after humiliating of losing nearly 2000 soldiers at the hands of superior Pakistani forces.

So all in all---when it comes to india vs (West) Pakistan--we have humiliated poor hindus every single time

Now you can talk about EAST Pakistan which wasn't even adjacent to our mainland and was already undering going civil war...

 

[GrinningMan]

Lol, when?

In 1948 , Pakistanis got THE MOST strategically important lands in Kashmir. Pakistan captured population centers of Gilgit , Skardu etc and secured access to central Asia...Cutting India off from Central Asian route..and hence containing poor indians in useless gigantic plains .... Where India would've got entire Kashmir due to Hindu treachery ...it only got some parts..and that too which are strategically of very less importance...and made even less important due to Indo-Pak water-accords ..

In 1965 , Pakistan defeated Indian attack on Lahore city and forced indians to retreat , captured strategically important Indian towns like Khem Kharan , captured strategically important Indian supply-lines like Muna Bao railway station. Although the land war wasn't decisive, the air-war was won by Pakistan undisputedly. PAF (Pakistan Air Force) just decimated the five times larger IAF (Indian Air Force), and all this eventually forced India to face the humiliation of signing an agreement of stalemate with SEVEN TIMES smaller nation-that was badly outgunned and outnumbered during the war... India's OWN media back then called it as "giving a walkover to Pakistan."

When was the last time you saw a seven times larger nation signing an agreement of "stalemate antebellum" with a seven times smaller nation? That's a military victory for the smaller state.

In 1999 Kargil war , just 5000 Pakistani troops+fighters got 30,000 indian soldiers with their pants down. At the end of the war , Pakistan captured strategically important Indian heights such as point 5353 , Dalu Nag , Saddle Ridge etc. They STILL hold these Indian territories and over-look NH-1 and Indian supplies to Siachen (Highest battleground in the world).

So in every war against W.Pakistan (Today's Pakistan) , Indian forces have faced humiliation from SEVEN TIMES smaller nation..When indians faced their EQUALS in size (Chinese in 62)...they were a$$-raped by Chinese But Pakistanis faced SEVEN TIMES larger nation and stood their ground pretty solidly...

I'll say quite Alpha.

180 million Pakistanis contained 1200 million indians ...

And talking about running with tails in the butt--that would be india in 2002 when india mobilized army and then UNILATERALLY withdrew and back out of the stand off that it started And that too, after humiliating of losing nearly 2000 soldiers at the hands of superior Pakistani forces.

So all in all---when it comes to india vs (West) Pakistan--we have humiliated poor hindus every single time

Now you can talk about EAST Pakistan which wasn't even adjacent to our mainland and was already undering going civil war...

Nice story there mam, now let's change your sheets it seems as if you have wet them again

 

[AUz]

Nice story there mam, now let's change your sheets it seems as if you have wet them again

Easy.

You gave up already.

I feel sorry for hindus...they have been humiliated, conquered, and dominated by us for so long that now even a small interaction scare their already banged p*ssies...

 

[GrinningMan]

Easy.

You gave up already.

I feel sorry for hindus...they have been humiliated, conquered, and dominated by us for so long that now even a small interaction scare their already banged p*ssies...

Son, you should be ashamed of talking to your father in such a manner

 

[Namer Afzal Khan]

You are generalizing things too much and dragging in the different topics at once. No-one is anti-government here.

The topic alone was about Kargil and not to praise NS with his other achievements to make the case stronger. It was Gujral, thanking NS for providing the details of persons (terrorists for India) in Kashmir. So also, NS unconditional love for India is not hidden but that is not the topic in hand, so chapter closed here.

A man in uniform cannot understand the chemistry of diplomacy so indeed an Ex-Military can tell you what really happened on the ground and flaws in planning by the view of a uniform person while I am saying that it was not failure or ill-planning of Musharraf alone (I am not supporting him) but we failed on diplomatic front. NS took advantage of the moment by posing himself that "we back-stabbed India" while playing the victim card here as he was sacked by Musharraf. So the loyalty part/formula applies to him as well that he shouldn't have created such issue of an internal thing on International Forum which is clear to show the tears and play innocent. He could have thought for a while that what exactly he is doing by discussing the Kargil in such manners so indeed it was a mindset of him to give a chance for demoralization while to be portrayed as innocent. The loyal is to be loyal to the Pakistan but couldn't be loyal to a corrupt, manipulator or a liar (whosoever fits in these categories).

If this is the rule or formula that the one has done this once, that once, etc twice so shouldn't be accountable or in-case of NS then the Military has done a-lot for Pakistan as well and who knows what Musharraf would have done so such benefit should be given to him as well but my stand is, accountability across the board. NS cannot be awarded a clean chit here in this matter alone.

This is all about a team set-up that plays together and be blamed together, for the loss if any and in-case of a win, cheers for all.

For me the Indians have got no credibility and the same goes for internet/media. I passed on information from the real sources I have. I agree nawaz said a lot of controversial stuff which he should not just to save himself but it seems like always that army and government were not on the same page but I am not here to defend nawaz Sharif. I am just saying that in 48 and in 65 war nawaz was not present. This shows that there is some planning failure. How can someone justify that on his very own border, the mujahideens ate fighting a war with artillery support. As long as we are going to keep on covering our own mistakes, we are not going to free Kashmir

 

[The Eagle]

For me the Indians have got no credibility and the same goes for internet/media. I passed on information from the real sources I have. I agree nawaz said a lot of controversial stuff which he should not just to save himself but it seems like always that army and government were not on the same page but I am not here to defend nawaz Sharif. I am just saying that in 48 and in 65 war nawaz was not present. This shows that there is some planning failure. How can someone justify that on his very own border, the mujahideens ate fighting a war with artillery support. As long as we are going to keep on covering our own mistakes, we are not going to free Kashmir

I don't know where are you coming from dear that again and again quoting the 48 and 65, so for me, indeed and Thanks God NS wasn't there in 65 or 47 otherwise, God knows what would have happened.

How sure you are that what my sources are and yours are the real one, why such insist to prove the point. Like other sources around, there are many sources in Pakistan as pro-NS as well so there comes the reality check and it says, no one is to be blamed alone and every party is responsible. If the source, quoting NS for providing details was incorrect, the counter statement and denial would have been sufficient. I also want to listen and believe that no such thing has been done by NS but just give me the strong condemnation/statement/press release by NS or government.

From your comments, why it is always NS that cannot be on same page with Military or it is like we have only NS in Pakistan being loyal and patriot. Don't discount him by saying that he just speak controversial only to save himself because when such person (being in-charge of top office) speaks in such behaviour it is not taken as mere controversial speech but makes it a record otherwise, forget what extremist says or Zardari, Musharraf, Imran Khan (that PMLn hates most). Kargil end results and NS agreeing to one sided note, was not even expected by Pres. Clinton and I am sure he would be like "It was all-up for Pakistan". A miserably failed diplomatic front that could not handle the pressure or could done the best out of it for that , the situation and ground was set. Discounting the NS being not aware of Kargil is nothing but a deliberate attempt to divert the attention. It is an SOP of military for presentation before Government about updating the plans depending upon the changes in geo-politics and as you also quoted above that NS wanted to free Kashmir since 1992, the representation was done before him and was briefed in detail so himself approved a GO and then, the rest is already up-here in short.

Indeed the precious lives were lost as nothing comes free but what really done by elected government, was a treacherous act to the martyrs of Kargil.

 

[AUz]

Son, you should be ashamed of talking to your father in such a manner

THIS is your response?



Poor kid. Basic as f*ck.

Anyways, you have been utterly demolished and your shithole country humiliated by facts. On to the next...

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Lol. According to Jammy, everyone else are false and he alone is true. That too without a source. Pakistani government refused to accept its own soldiers, Pakistan gave highest honour to Capt Sher Khan, based on recommendations and recounting of his bravery by Indian soldiers.

Not but not the least, No PAF craft had BVR capability. Mig 29 locking on F16 was a widely known undisputed news. Its impossible to go from 20k feet to 500 feet without getting noticed. I wonder where the troll brings false propaganda to prove his superiorty complex.

 

[Namer Afzal Khan]

I don't know where are you coming from dear that again and again quoting the 48 and 65, so for me, indeed and Thanks God NS wasn't there in 65 or 47 otherwise, God knows what would have happened.

How sure you are that what my sources are and yours are the real one, why such insist to prove the point. Like other sources around, there are many sources in Pakistan as pro-NS as well so there comes the reality check and it says, no one is to be blamed alone and every party is responsible. If the source, quoting NS for providing details was incorrect, the counter statement and denial would have been sufficient. I also want to listen and believe that no such thing has been done by NS but just give me the strong condemnation/statement/press release by NS or government.

From your comments, why it is always NS that cannot be on same page with Military or it is like we have only NS in Pakistan being loyal and patriot. Don't discount him by saying that he just speak controversial only to save himself because when such person (being in-charge of top office) speaks in such behaviour it is not taken as mere controversial speech but makes it a record otherwise, forget what extremist says or Zardari, Musharraf, Imran Khan (that PMLn hates most). Kargil end results and NS agreeing to one sided note, was not even expected by Pres. Clinton and I am sure he would be like "It was all-up for Pakistan". A miserably failed diplomatic front that could not handle the pressure or could done the best out of it for that , the situation and ground was set. Discounting the NS being not aware of Kargil is nothing but a deliberate attempt to divert the attention. It is an SOP of military for presentation before Government about updating the plans depending upon the changes in geo-politics and as you also quoted above that NS wanted to free Kashmir since 1992, the representation was done before him and was briefed in detail so himself approved a GO and then, the rest is already up-here in short.

Indeed the precious lives were lost as nothing comes free but what really done by elected government, was a treacherous act to the martyrs of Kargil.

This is becoming a never ending debate. All i am saying is that fighting a war is army's responsibility and our history shows that whenever we have waged a war to free kashmir, we have failed to do so. That's the point i am trying to make "Failed to do so". Diplomatic front is a secondary thing. Why are we crying over that. My father and uncle were both were fighting kargil war. They say that in most of the times they were not even allowed to retaliate to Indian's shelling because the top command use to say that we cannot afford to open a sector. Then they used to asked the soldiers that how is your morale. This the point. The military failure throughout our history to achieve what it wants to achieve. The plan of kargil was to capture strategic areas in such a way so that to bring India on the table for talks "Afterwards". Therefore diplomacy was the next objective. We failed in the first objective. So how can you expect anyone else to successfully complete the next phase. You tell me. Was there any option for the political government to do something when own army chief disowned his own men. If you were the prime minister at that time then what would you have said? If musharraf was right when he defended himself by saying that we were very close to achieving our objective if it wasn't for nawaz sharif, then nawaz sharif is also not wrong when he puts the blame on musharraf. Maybe he was not expecting musharraf to give such a statements about his troop. So what other option he had. Do you think Ns was suppose to fight mujahideen's case in front of the international community.

Just for the record i did not start this NS stuff in this thread. You did. you can check your previous posts and i don't know why are you not accepting this point that the army failed to achieve its objective and you cant win a lost war through diplomacy.

 

[The Eagle]

Just for the record i did not start this NS stuff in this thread.

Check your Post # 43 in this same thread and see who jumped in to defend NS here. Rest about disagreements, record and journals are all there that how the diplomatic front as well failed right there, where Clinton and Vajpayee were expecting something strong in demand per Kashmir but your frozen stance is not letting you to understand but mere read to reply and repeat the same again & again.

I am not accepting, you mean, I should believe what you are stating that too are misquotes without any source instead of just PMLn/NS statements or should I say what stopping you to understand and realize the background of subject here.

Start reading your posts in this thread from the first one and see at how many times you generalized things that too just to support your claim (that PMLn has been doing since start) without any source or I would say, General Raheel Sharif is my uncle, now accept it.

 

[Namer Afzal Khan]

Check your Post # 43 in this same thread and see who jumped in to defend NS here. Rest about disagreements, record and journals are all there that how the diplomatic front as well failed right there, where Clinton and Vajpayee were expecting something strong in demand per Kashmir but your frozen stance is not letting you to understand but mere read to reply and repeat the same again & again.

I am not accepting, you mean, I should believe what you are stating that too are misquotes without any source instead of just PMLn/NS statements or should I say what stopping you to understand and realize the background of subject here.

Start reading your posts in this thread from the first one and see at how many times you generalized things that too just to support your claim (that PMLn has been doing since start) without any source or I would say, General Raheel Sharif is my uncle, now accept it.

(1) Really sorry. I mistook you as wind jammer. he started the political party stuff.
(2) What misquotes are there in the fact that since 48 to kargil the military failed 3 times to secure its objective. Just for the sake of the argument, Kargil was political mishandled then what about the previous two wars 48 and 65. I am just trying to say that our military fails when it comes to planning for freeing kashmir and you are just not admitting it. Just talk about the war. We have to admit that we need to improve because every time we start a war we end up without achieving our military objective

 

[Windjammer]

Lol. According to Jammy, everyone else are false and he alone is true. That too without a source. Pakistani government refused to accept its own soldiers, Pakistan gave highest honour to Capt Sher Khan, based on recommendations and recounting of his bravery by Indian soldiers.

You people refused to receive your downed pilot in front of the media hence he had to be handed over to the Red Cross and yes ''Nishan-e-Haider'' is posthumous and only awarded after the enemy acknowledges the outstanding bravery and dedication beyond the call of duty by the recipient.... but then you awarded Vir Chakra to a soldier who later turned up alive....what's your point.

Not but not the least, No PAF craft had BVR capability. Mig 29 locking on F16 was a widely known undisputed news. Its impossible to go from 20k feet to 500 feet without getting noticed. I wonder where the troll brings false propaganda to prove his superiorty complex.

Undisputed ???...you mean on claimed by the Indians.
You know it's entertaining when those belonging to stupid and funny section suddenly become defence expert, let alone a fighter jet taking evasive manoeuvres, using chaff and disappearing amongst the mountains, if it were that simple, you would exactly know where your AN-32 went down, Even if PAF had no BVR capability back then, still there was a reason your aircraft had even within their own airspace, had to operate with an escort....but i don't expect you to understand this logic.

 

[Hamza913]

Why is that every Six Months since PDF started (how many years is that?) That a thread like this is stated again? Are we that sad that there is no current topic to discussed?

Yes.

You are a WISE person ; Welcome to PDF

Your only saying that because his post matches your agenda.

THIS is your response?



Poor kid. Basic as f*ck.

Anyways, you have been utterly demolished and your shithole country humiliated by facts. On to the next...

Roasted and toasted