Kadhafi calls for jihad against Switzerland over minaret ban

[Parashuram1]

How old is your country compare to pakistan?

Since many years before your official existence in 1947. Please check Swiss history if you are so much interested in our country.

 

[Parashuram1]

I think... you certainly a problem... otherwise we mention no problems with Swiss.

Actually some members from your country have a problem with me. The topic was about Kadhafi and his nonsense drivel about my country and your fellow countrymen started taking everything from human rights to Swiss "discrimination of Muslims" and what not. All I said was we don't want Islamic influence in our country and all of them started howling about how medieval we are. So naturally I had to defend my stance.

No doubt Swiss is a great place to be... but what is your point.
On contrary... I highly recomend you go and interview some Swiss one who has been in Pakistan.

I am not talking about Swiss tourists in Pakistan but rather the day to day situation your minorities face that is unofficially going on contrary to your constitutional laws. Please don't deny that since it is well documented in UNO.

Do you have any grounds for your blames?

It seems that either you don't know your country well or don't want to acknowledge the situation there. Please don't expect me to type 100s of pages of research and journal papers here to convince you. You are entitled to your own belief about this.

Swiss born!!! but certainly not swiss.

I am compliant of all laws that make me a respected Swiss citizen. I don't start demanding towers and religious monuments that are not a part of my country's culture and respect my constitution. I have stayed here all my life and so is now my family. So how different am I from other Swiss?

 

[Parashuram1]

you are just going to streets with panels saying Islam is bullshit
but as you say there is no problem
even here in France they harshly criticize your behavior towards French people. Some people ask to kick out French of the country. In France these words would not be allowed but in Switzerland the hatred is shown in public and admired by the swiss people.
for me that's a big problem.

this above is saying to kick off of the country black sheeps

here it is written : be careful Islam . vote UDC for Switzerland free.

about "muslim countries" ?? then you said "islamic"
what does it mean?
in morocco many jews and christians are there. in turkey you said.
In Lebanon all live together .
In Iran is the biggest country in the region for having jew people. Armenian and orthodox armenian christian are free and have churchs. just the women wear scarf.
in Yazd is allowed the old religion of Iran.
Sadly in some country it is not.
but hey? because a country is not tolerant you should do the same?
why not take exemple on countries which are acting good instead of pointing your finger on "islamic " countries which are acting not good in this matter???

lol
what an answer!
we are speaking about racism becoming bigger and bigger in your country. if it comes to this point that only christians are allowed all european countries would boycott you. and all muslim countries . and most countries in the world.

Indonesia is not so bad for exemple.
I go often there. And in Dubai as well. Dubai is very tolerant.
Well many countries have still problems
but it doesn't allow any country to say then it is allowed to show so much racism

Wasn't your friend talking about religion so far? When did it become a racial issue until it was pointed out just now by you? If you are mistaken let me clarify; your friends raised the topic of religious situation in Switzerland and I was only countering those.

Regarding throwing out French, I am not supportive of racial hatred and don't welcome this.

 

[Hussein]

Don't worry, we acknowledge where we live and the world seems to have no problem with us except for Pakistanis on this forum. Our fellow Europeans love us and respect our country and we are having an excellent relationship with the entire world.

Anyway, please get your Indophilia checked. You are seriously obsessed with Indians.

And you are very obsessed with Pakistanis.
Why so much insults and hatred?

By the way you say you are loved but it is not true at all. Every country is respected but love wow what a word!
For exemple:
Al Jazeera English - Europe - Switzerland minaret ban condemned
vatican
Indonesia
Europe Muslim Organization
Sweden criticized
France foreign minister
not about minarets itself but clearly because of the signal of hatred
so pls don't say lies that everyone agrees with you that everything is fine in Switzerland.

fanatism in switzerland:
Switzerland: Constitutional ban on the building of minarets : DICI

“The Islamic doctrine cannot be accepted when you know what it is all about. How can one expect to condone the propagation of an ideology that encourages husbands to beat their wives, the “believer” to murder the “infidel”, a justice that uses body mutilation as punishment, and pushes to reject Jews and Christians?” declared in a statement, Father Henri Wuilloud , District Superior, Switzerland.

and you say Switzerland wonderful? you are speaking about extremists in Pakistan but you close your eyes on your own?

 

[Parashuram1]

From an article in chowk.com:

Non-muslims are amongst the most talented and the most patriotic Pakistanis. Justice Bhagwan Das of the Supreme Court is held to amongst the most honest judges serving right now. Pakistan’s best fashion designer is a Hindu (Deepak Parwani), and the best model is a christian (Sunita Marshall). The owners of the largest hotel chain (Avari Hotels) are parsis. The best batsman in Pakistan’s cricket team is a christian (Youhanna), and the best leg spinner in Pakistan is a Hindu. Pakistan’s best drummer is a goan christian (Gumby of Junoon and Noori fame), some of Pakistan’s leading musicians are christians including bands like Saraab and Aks. Even our best novelist in English is arguably a Parsi. Their contribution in fields of defence, education and nation-building is undeniable. Some of Pakistan’s best fighter pilots were christians. Pakistan’s best institutions like Kinnaird College etc are still run by non-muslims.

Is this applicable on a day to day basis? Articles are mere drops of ink until really applied, friend. I am not talking because I have a bias against your country (why would I?), but because numbers speak for itself about records that we have with us here in UN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parashuram1
Name me any minority in your country of a ministerial level.
Shahbaz Bhatti, federal minister of Minorities Affairs is a Catholic. In case you are interested, many other Muslim countries from Morocco to Malaysia have non-Muslims (even Jews - gasp!) in important ministerial posts.

I was talking about Pakistan and since you answered it, that would suffice. What is so "gasp" about Jews? is it because of Israel factor? There are still a few of them left in their country of origin so they are citizens of that country.

Every country has rules for dressing in public based on the prevalent norms of morality and decency. These rules are NOT based on religious affiliation. Most Western countries do not allow topless or nude appearance (except in restricted areas).

Certainly. This is what the whole point is about Switzerland. In France too the veil issue is being blown out of proportion by some members here. Each country has a law and that has to be followed. Period.

Nonsense. The 'culture' canard has been busted long ago. People who had no problems with beards all this time are now deciding that beards are alien. Jewish yarmulkas never raised an eyebrow, but Muslim women's headscarves are considered an affront to cultural sensibilities.

You don't see these Jews demanding religious constructions left, right and center or something that is out of picture in Switzerland. What is perceived as modest in your country might not be viewed in the same light in others. This is why every country exists separately rather than all combined in one huge landmass.

I accept that veils and burqas should not be allowed in certain public places. It is a valid security issue -- people have to take off motorcycle helmets in banks, for example. What I object to is the way the debate was phrased as a religious/cultural issue rather than as a valid public safety issue.

4 months ago, a Muslim woman raised hell in United States because she was asked to remove her headscarf for security reasons. In France, no one is allowed to display religious symbols in public and for that again many Muslims raised a severe criticism; Netherlands and Denmark had proposed a similar law and again there was agitation against these countries in the Islamic world.

Your point here is valid and I respect it but your countrymen here didn't put it exactly in the same meaning as you did. Your perspective is a bit more different
than theirs and therefore the difference in perception.

And incidently, Italians wear headscarves all the time, so headscarves are not alien to Swiss culture. I know the dynamics of Switzerland quite well, including the mix of Italian/German/French/Romanche cultures.

Italians don't wear it the way it is worn in middle east. Since you claim to know Switzerland so well, you should know it that Italians don't wear it out of religious compulsion either.

Our mainstream media does not promote hatred and bigotry against our own citizens based on religion. Our media does not stereotype and marginalize our Christian brothers and sisters the way Western media does to its Muslim citizens.

Yet Christians, Hindus and Sikhs are attacked in your country with their demography shrinking by the year. What difference does it make whether your media promotes "hatred" or not? Still minorities are in danger in your country a lot of times. Since you claim that you know Switzerland well, you must be knowing that we don't slaughter non-Christian minorities either. A right wing party's agenda doesn't bring down any unpleasant result on minority citizens here in Switzerland unlike the other way around in your country.

The media's role is to promote communal harmony and mutual understanding. The Western media has failed miserably and is actively involved in promoting unjustified Islamophobia.

You are paranoid. Quit this victim mindset. West doesn't question Islamic laws in Islamic countries. Whatever is questioned and debated is done in Western countries and it is their right to question things.. NO government here promotes the nature of hatred you are thinking about; it is your own imagination that makes you think of us as the enemy.

We are talking about human rights. Freedom of religion is a basic human right and, as signatory to international laws on the matter, Switzerland is obligated to provide such freedom to all its residents. Yes, even the Muslim ones.

First get some freedom of other religions in the belt of Islamic countries, friend. As I said, minorities get a lot of freedom here and much better than anything middle east and Southern Asia has to offer. Funny that you people claim to be holding the torch for human rights whereas it is majority of the theocratic muslim countries in your region with some of the most severe human rights violations record. But since you won't agree with me, come here to Switzerland and see for yourself.

Such commitments to principle are needed precisely in the face of mob mentality fanned by xenophobic demagogues.

We don't suffer from Nazism or else we would not have supported enemies of Hitler.

And basic human rights are not an internal matter. Not in the 21st century.

First place where human rights need to be practiced starting with democracy is muslim countries, friend. This is not to insult your religion, it is just the numbers that talk. From honor killings to killing of minorities to severe mistreatment of women, unfortunately your belt of countries rank the worst.

I assure you, Switzerland has much more freedom for everyone than anything in Middle East or Southwestern Asia.

I am sure you can find like-minded people in Europe who will support you in your stance against "Islamization". As stated earlier, Europe is in the throes of resurgent racism, dressed up as secularism and cultural resistance, so you will find many racists and bigots who will agree with you.

Do you know the meaning of racism? I don't think half of you do here. Racism is a term that means RACIAL DISCRIMINATION against someone who is not of your ethnicity; skin color, facial features etc. What is being discussed here is not about race but about religion. Please don't mix up the two terms.

I am against all forms of racial discrimination and condemn these losers of attacking people who don't look like them. However, about religion every country has some level of restriction and some norms that are according to the situation there. That is something your fellow countrymen here don't seem to understand and teach us Europeans what is the meaning of human rights while your region suffers from the worst record of human rights.

Where do you draw the line on culture? Should Asian immigrants stop using chopsticks when they move to Switzerland? Japanese should stop eating sushi and Indians/Pakistanis should stop eating curry in public?

There is a big difference between what personal choice is and what is public imposition. Don't twist my words for your convenience.

Why does it bother anybody if some schoolgirl wants to wear the headscarf? Especially if they weren't bothered by the Jewish yarmulka all these years.

Are you referring to the French law? I think there is a member from France here someone called "ouiouioui" or something like that. Please ask him. Your obsession with Jewish is making you compare yourself with others needlessly.

The fact is that there is a lot of racism in Europe. Many people don't like all non-white immigrants, but they can't say anything against Asians, Indians and Hispanics because of political correctness. So they take out their frustrations by ganging up on the one group where the media has made it politically acceptable to be a bigot.

I told you I am not a racist and I hate racism. Your assumptions are amusing.

Since I live in a Western country, the reply will not shock me. What may shock you, though, is to realize that almost all migration to the West is economic migration. It has nothing to do with so-called lack of freedoms. Most people would migrate to communist China if there were economic opportunities for migrants over there.

You answered your own question. Have you heard the famous saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? This is the case around the world. The migration whether economic or not is the choice of those who plan to do so and have to learn to adopt to the place they are migrating to; not the other way around.

But you are not entitled to make blanket assertions about "Islamic countries" when you have no knowledge of the matter. The Western media has an agenda to promote negative stories about Muslims and downplay positive news. Non-Muslims in "Islamic countries" like Morocco, Turkey, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. enjoy all the freedoms you boast about.

Pakistan TV broadcast Christmas mass live on national TV. When's the last time Swiss TV broadcast Muslim prayers?

Broadcasting a programme won't guarantee the safety of lives of minorities who have shrunk in demography in your country. BTW, Are you sure about the bold part? Indonesia, yes I agree they are liberal and have a better record. Malaysia too has recently seen a surge in fundamentalism and is prone to religious tensions and I don't need to mention about Pakistan to you.

You are paranoid about West, man.

I lived in Genève for several years. I know and like the Swiss people. But I am absolutely disgusted by this law.

All cannot be suited to outsider's will and fancy, friend. I am also of a non-European faith and I have also adopted here well like many others. Even Muslims have except for a few who have fundamentalist and expansionist interests.

the usual religious obsession that some people conduct here
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is you who is obsessed with religion. I never mentioned your religion, only India. It is you who brought Hinduism into our discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I am not interested in your religion. If you are proud to be Hindu, good for you, but it is not relevant to the discussion.

Sorry to tell you late, but I multi-reply to several members at the same time and there are posts by others before yours who might have asked me this. Someone told me here that India doesn't have a good record "either". What was that supposed to mean since I never brought India in the picture at all.

We acknowledge and are proud of our Indian heritage. Just as we are proud of the Muslim, Persian and other influences to our culture.

Your fellow countrymen here refuse to agree with your view entirely which is why I raised the point in first place. Kindly check their posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parashuram1
You are seriously obsessed with Indians.
Wrong.

I wasn't pointing at you.

I am obsessed with honesty. You pretend to be a neutral contributor with unbiased observations, but you have a decidedly pro-India (and often anti-Pakistan) bias in your posts. That is why I taunted you with that bit about India's sorry record on religious-rights.

Some Indian members speak rational matters here and that is something even Americans, British and others agree here with. So they are all Indians according to you? Think again. Check how many Pakistani comments I have supported and thanked here before raising your needless doubts.

Your taunts barely affect me one bit. I was merely clarifying myself incase you were genuinely not aware of my origins.

 

[Parashuram1]

THIS POST IS FOR MR. BATMAN ONLY

Apparently it is hindus who are obssesed with Pakistan and their internal affairs. A normal Swiss would have care less to discuss on Pakistani forum the way you are firing for no reason!
Despite the fact you failed to find any Pakistani agreeing to the Qadafi news.... you have been flaming from begining.

I am a Swiss Hindu meaning that any members here telling rubbish against Hinduism will bother me as well. Just like you cannot tolerate anything against Muslims even if it is happening in another part of the world. Don't you get your logic?

If i was a moderator of forum, i would have treated all inidans as they do to Pakistani posters on indian forums. Just look how you are fighting with Pakistanis for no apparent provocation!

Your obsession with India makes me an Indian eh? Very broad-minded..

By the way, it was one of your fellow Pakistanis who started condemning Switzerland first. I don't have world of time to pick up fights. Check the thread if you can to see who started this argument.

I hate hindus because i have met hundreds and all of them were very fanatics and crazy when it comes to discussing their religon and cast.

Without understanding that you might be offending NON-INDIAN Hindus in the process of your hatred?? And you call us xenophobic? Nice..keep it up.

Don't you see how the leadership of indian openly talk of nuking Pakistan? and attacking China?

It is your bilateral matters with Indians and you deal with them on this issue. Why are you bringing Indians in the middle of our arguments? Did I say I support India attacking Pakistan? You are off you hook now.

Never have you seen how indian public behaves to Pakistanis..... and Kashmiris? and now you..... can you explain your signature?

Those Indians who are misbehaving on this forum, deserve to be kicked out for their immaturity and I agree to that. My signature is a quote from the Hindu (there are Western Hindus as well who follow this) holy book Shrimad Bhagavad Gita. You being a non-Arab Muslim should know this without me explaining.

Can i ask which cast you come from? and don't mention of short sightedness to me.... shortsighted are those who have granted to you nationality.... we Pakistanis know most about hindus and how friendly their religon is.... since the swiss media don't like to print news about ethnic cleansing of minorities by the hands of hindus does not mean no one knows the fundamental beliefs of hinduism.

Caste system is a social system in India that has no mention in religious texts. It was a social system divided to suit those times and over a period of time took the false form of the malpractice and mistreatment done by some selfish, cruel men. This is similar to the degradation and bad name Taliban are giving to your religion today. Easier now to understand?

I know my religion well, friend and if you want, I can explain you about it well but not here. It has nothing to do with us. Hinduism has many branches and therefore has no such rigid dogma as you think of. FYI I was BORN a Swiss.. not given passport.

You are falsely blaming me as xenophobic and that is wrong. Did you see me saying "I hate Muslims"? And as I said, your hatred of Hinduism and xenophobia makes you think of our religion as an enemy. I cannot help you with that.

You should be rather marveling at those Pakistanis who have been granted British citizenship but advocate terrorist attack on Britain all the time. Or you didn't see that which was shown all over the world in news channels live?

Sorry... to say i have seen and experienced different inidnas..... normally indians abroad always poke their nose in any Pakistani affair...
I really would be glad the day indians like you stop following the spy habitts of your.... regular indians.

You are raving now. I cannot help you to get rid of your obsession with Indians. Talk to the Indian members here or get a doctor.

Any one will be proud to hold Swiss nationality and i'm not surprised.
You come from Geneva... shouldn't you be speaking French? than why you prefer to talk in German (Schwizer instead of Suisse)?

What has my choice of preferred language got to do with argument here at hand? Geneva has UN HQ where I work. Now if you want to know more about me, PM me without derailing the thread.

Now, why the hell do you ask me this question? In any case it is not difficult basic things about swiss immmigration laws could be found on web! i respect what ever laws swiss have and i also respect what ever laws britan have! but i know why you denominate British immigrant laws and it is just becasue of same Pakistan phobia or obbsession as you described.

It was in response to your post to me. I cannot remember exactly what it was for but I assure you I can read well in English and reply accordingly. Please check your previous posts.

Hahhh finally..... despite getting your education in swiss you talk hinglish...

I don't understand what you said. Please elaborate.

I thought...Gadafi's acts may have an impact..... in singling out Muslims out of whole comunity.... since swiss (like you!) are very nationalistic.
I even heard that no Swiss buy petrol from Tamoil is it correct? and those who buy.. face consequencies!!!! not openly but their life gets hard... there cars getting punctured regularly.... etc.

Trade aside, security is a different matter, Mr. Batman. Now even you are known to trade with your political rival India in certain spheres. What would you do if they declare and inspire terrorist activities in your country? Ignore and continue to trade or give a befitting reply?

may i ask where have you voted if Swiss may have asked for indiscriminate ban on foreign religons?

I didn't because I am not against any religion as it is a personal matter. I respect every religion and all I ask is that other religions of other countries also respect Swiss way of life equally. Is that so difficult to understand?

I wish all the best to Swiss banking sector... i would personally like to invest in the Swiss banks.. if i had enough money.

Thank you for your good wishes. Your money will be a welcome to our country's banks and we offer the best security to our dear investors and customers.

Now don't get me started here...
our current President was convicted by swiss courts and his conviction got reversed in a series of events which ended up making him President in a very undemocratic fashion.
would you like to explain how it can happen... while law of Swiss is supreme???
Where did you saw us imposing our faith on Swiss?

When did you see Swiss declaring Muslims as their enemies?

mind it... if you are proud of your old religon than Islam is also not born on 9/11 and what is printed about Islam in indian media is not our holy book.

Quote:

Again with India... get a doctor please. I know when Islam was born and as a professional in related field, I assure you that I am not as ignorant as a villager here.

Could be because you are non-Muslim also!!! and minarate ban clearly tells us that to get respected in Swiss one need to be non-Muslim... other religons are respected to fullest.

Could be, should be, would be... your analysis is wrong and is only so because you are seeing us with the "us vs them" glasses. Remove it and you will see what I mean. Even temples cannot be exactly constructed here as they are done in Nepal and India. The only difference is that we respect Swiss laws and follow them unlike some who raise all hell for small things.

Do you consider your self the only human in Switzerland????
Please... don't tell me that all the enlightment lies with you!

Do you consider only Muslims as the rightful residents around the world and no one else? I am talking about other faiths that reside in Switzerland as well. The "ME" was an example to make you understand. You are funny, buddy.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Parashuram1..you talk much you make little sense stop copying and pasting and than replying there is already a thread by Mods explained to come to a point in concise manner instead of ranting and trying to prove your points with long speeches..

You Obsession with Muslims being wrong is irreverent you are irreverent..stop the bs and move on..either break off from this talk or make your final point..

 

[Hyde]

Parashurama was the 6th Avatar of Vishnu

The amount of importance Parashurama is giving to this thread clearly means he is from India.

Why would a switz national come to this forum? and then why will he give importance to this topic and write 500 words article several times?

Europeans are not like us they don't waste time for nothing

 

[Luftwaffe]

Zaki that is why i said he talks much and makes lil sense..lol hey i just noticed he edited his posts several times...

 

[Parashuram1]

Zaki that is why i said he talks much and makes lil sense..lol hey i just noticed he edited his posts several times...

Heard of typing errors? Want to avoid that.

 

[Parashuram1]

Parashurama was the 6th Avatar of Vishnu

The amount of importance Parashurama is giving to this thread clearly means he is from India.

Why would a switz national come to this forum? and then why will he give importance to this topic and write 500 words article several times?

Europeans are not like us they don't waste time for nothing

Funny.. If you are a Pakistani and you emphasize on prophet Mohammed, then that makes you an Arab?

Nice logic. Okay if calling me an Indian makes you sleep well, enjoy your nap.

 

[Parashuram1]

Parashuram1..you talk much you make little sense stop copying and pasting and than replying there is already a thread by Mods explained to come to a point in concise manner instead of ranting and trying to prove your points with long speeches..

You Obsession with Muslims being wrong is irreverent you are irreverent..stop the bs and move on..either break off from this talk or make your final point..

Dear Luftwaffe,

Pasting your own fantasies on others won't make them happen. The thread is about what is going on in our country and those Muslims who are protesting against our law are not from your country (as was cleared by a member here), therefore Pakistanis have no right to comment on our system which is an internal matter of Switzerland.

Unlike you, we separate religion from State affairs and which is why we are successful. I wish all the best for Pakistani citizens to quit viewing everything from Islam vs others lenses and then see how fast they rise up the ladder of development, peace and prosperity.

There has to be a balance between state and religion; something not present in most members here. Someone calls me Indian while other calls me a fanatic Hindu, in a thread where I am defending my country.

Please tell me, who is being narrow-minded ?

 

[Parashuram1]

And you are very obsessed with Pakistanis.
Why so much insults and hatred?

By the way you say you are loved but it is not true at all. Every country is respected but love wow what a word!
For exemple:
Al Jazeera English - Europe - Switzerland minaret ban condemned
vatican
Indonesia
Europe Muslim Organization
Sweden criticized
France foreign minister
not about minarets itself but clearly because of the signal of hatred
so pls don't say lies that everyone agrees with you that everything is fine in Switzerland.

fanatism in switzerland:
Switzerland: Constitutional ban on the building of minarets : DICI

and you say Switzerland wonderful? you are speaking about extremists in Pakistan but you close your eyes on your own?

When did I blame anything on Pakistan? The thread started with Kadhafi's demand for terrorism against my country which I retaliated to. Then someone here criticizes my country's law that I respond to.

Finally, someone having no sensible explanation or logic, forces a foreign identity upon me which has nothing to do with this thread and then when I tell them not to get involved in Switzerland's internal matters, you declare me as obsessed with Pakistan !!

 

[asq]

secularism is a two way street. one can not be secular with a non-secular.

So u change your tune to suit your need, and they have a saying in pakistan about it, i will not repeat it here,

it suits those who define their boundries and abandon them and create new ones as they go along, so they talk from both sides of their mouths.

 

[asq]

When did I blame anything on Pakistan? The thread started with Kadhafi's demand for terrorism against my country which I retaliated to. Then someone here criticizes my country's law that I respond to.

Finally, someone having no sensible explanation or logic, forces a foreign identity upon me which has nothing to do with this thread and then when I tell them not to get involved in Switzerland's internal matters, you declare me as obsessed with Pakistan !!

we have no problem with your country passing any Laws, but stop caliming yourselves to ve secular society.

We the Pakistanis donot like the secularism as defined, so we wait till a better system that deifines the socio-ecnomic well bing of all humans is invented, but wait it is here, it is Islam.

You need to read about secularism. read on.

Secularism Defined

What is secularism? Secularism as a modern political and constitutional principle involves two basic propositions. The first is that people belonging to different faiths and sections of society are equal before the law, the Constitution and government policy. The second requirement is that there can be no mixing up of religion and politics. It follows therefore that there can be no discrimination against anyone on the basis of religion or faith nor is there room for the hegemony of one religion or majoritarian religious sentiments and aspirations. It is in this double sense--no discrimination against anyone on grounds of faith and separation of religion from politics--that our Constitution safeguards secularism, however imperfectly.

These political principles imply also the acceptance of a somewhat more general principle: that the realm of validity of religion in the public arena and society is necessarily limited. Religion, being above all a matter of personal faith, cannot be used as the basis of settling questions of the real world, or of man in society. While individuals in society may base their values on particular religious tenets, where such questions impinge on society as a whole the basis of discussion and social consensus cannot be religion--much less one particular religion. This larger principle does not conflict with the historical fact that certain values in a society may have their foundation in religion; these values are re-examined in a rational and humane spirit before they are accepted as the values that govern the functioning of a modern society, and new values indeed are created which are necessary for modern times.

Despite the weaknesses of actual practice, elements of this understanding of secularism have been an essential part of the accepted political values of modern societies, leading, for instance, to the rejection of untouchability and sati, to the formal rejection of caste, and to the institution of affirmative action as a means of redressing socio-economic inequalities. It is this larger principle that is sought to be challenged today by Hindutva; defending its lies, I believe, at the heart of the struggle against fundamentalism and communalism.

Secularism Defined