Junagadh dispute & Kashmir

[deckingraj]

@Ice_man

ok let's play it your way.....

Thanks for that...Though i dont want to play i want to have constructive discussion..

well see i guess we want HAFEEZ hanged but then again lack of evidence similar to the lack of evidecne against tytler & parohit has lead hafeez to be a free man and that is what i implied! but IF HAFEEZ is GUILTY he will be tried under our law & justice will prevail! no quiestion
about it!

If that is the intention and truth great...However India stand is that we have given enough proof's and leads that Pak investigation agencies can use to convict saeed. Anyways that is the job of your investigation agencies. Our stand is you are not sincere about it and we are trying to put diplomatic pressure fo you to do more... Do you see anything wrong in it?? If not then we both are in agreement here...

well firstly LoC means LINE OF CONTROL so whoever controls whicever part its his so Kargil is actually not crossing the border my friend! and ehance you will never hear of skrimishes in punjab or sindh between indian army & pak army! but you will always hear about skrimishes in the LoC region! both sides try to get the upper hand....

Comon man...Do you honestly believe it??? I know LOC is not border but does that mean it has no relevance??? If we dont respect it how can you expect a peaceful resolution to Kashmir??? What would be your logic/reaction if India do the same kargil and enter ***(Azad Kashmir).. NO my friend thats what agreements are about(refer to Shimla Agreement)...Both sides need to respect LOC till we have a peaceful resolution...

We have LAC with China as well but apart from odd incursions from both side it has been a peaceful border..

Anyways what i was trying to explain was that there are lot of disimilarity between Siachen and Kargil and your logic that India did siachen we did Kargil is flawed. If you think otherwise please challenge my points(that i shared in my previous post) with your counter points and lets avoid to go in cirlces...

and you go on to say the "timing was wrong" well the timing was wrong in terms of military preparedness!! our army discounted the airforce factor completely....but that is another discussion for another day! and you said it was musharraf's dream and not just india's well this link will be a good read for you

Ofcourse buddy the timing was wrong..Not just militarily but strategically and economically as well.. It was a diplomatic blunder on Pakistan side...I hope you remember international reaction to Kargil..pakistan was termed as aggressor and just after the war your country went into turmoil(military coup, stock exchange went for a toss etc etc)...whereas exactly opposite happened in india...

Anyways my point was when both sides took such a bold step of improving relations don't you think it was wrong move to do kargil??? Did kargil imprived relations??? Did kargil resulted in resoltion?? Is india on negotiation table??? These are few questions one should ask....

Musharraf defends Kargil, says he brought Kashmir to the negotiation table

Thanks for sharing the link ..Though i find this logic flawed.. May i ask what do you think was the objective of Lahore trip by Mr Vajpayee...To watch Bhangda on wagah border and enjoy tea at Lahore??? No my dear friend it was to increase amicable relations and solve all pending issues including Kashmir

so see calling it "pragmatic" or "integral" part of india is concluding the negotiation before even starting!

No it is not..I will explain below

i said before indian cannot come to table with a mind set that kashmir is our integral part and the pragmatic solution is to make LoC the International Border! that is a conclusion india has already planned how can we talk further!

What shall india come up to table with??? How are you going to resolve an issue if you dont even have a stand on the issue??? ... Our stand is Kashmir is an integral part of India..Your stand is India's claim on Kashmir is illegal and Kashmir issue should be resolved with pleblicite... How is that a conclusion.....We have a conflict only because we have different stands....

if you want my honest opinon there is no point of "DILAOUGE" with india when india comes to the table with a conclusion already in mind....both sides need to be flexible

Only dialogue can lead to a solution which is acceptable to both the parties...Pakistan cannot ignore india's sentiments and vice versa on Kashmir and thats the reason converting LOC to IB seems to be a viable option..Something even comtemplated by Musharraf(obviously in different wording) and i shared the link with you...

 

[Goodperson]

Continue the discussion on 'conditions' there please.

Back to topic, enough hijacking. We are now discussing Kashmir, Siachen and Hafiz Saeed here

I thought we were discussing on thread topic or have the rules changed ?

I will respond to your post after I comeback.

 

[ice_man]

Thanks for that...Though i dont want to play i want to have constructive discussion..

constructive discussion can happen only if you stop saying kashmir is our integral part! first recognize it as a problem! by saying its your integral part is like u saying kashmir is no different from cochin,gujrat or mahrastra!


If that is the intention and truth great...However India stand is that we have given enough proof's and leads that Pak investigation agencies can use to convict saeed. Anyways that is the job of your investigation agencies. Our stand is you are not sincere about it and we are trying to put diplomatic pressure fo you to do more... Do you see anything wrong in it?? If not then we both are in agreement here...

again you just concluded something...by saying our stand is you are not sincere! like i said isn't an FIR lodged against hafeez saeed? it is right... means something is being done! and as for proof have you seen it....NO have i seen it NO....means either india has provided sufficent proof or it hasn't.....but like your usual way of talking you started of by saying ENOUGH PROOF HAS BEEN GIVEN! like i gave an example before....about the gujrat massacre where i have myself seen videos of MODI and BABU BAJRANGI accusing modi....that is ample proof...and yet modi is unharmed....the reason being there is NO SUFFICENT PROOF! the law of pakistan says clear evidence should be presented against the accused! so let things follow the course of LAW before you start saying not enough is being done! and big cases take atleast 10 years or so to conclude! even KASAB a clear man convicted of mumbai massacre is still not hung WHY? is he innocent NO! but law says we need people to testify we need proof and all sorts of evidence!

so stop concluding pakistan is not doing enough!


Comon man...Do you honestly believe it??? I know LOC is not border but does that mean it has no relevance??? If we dont respect it how can you expect a peaceful resolution to Kashmir??? What would be your logic/reaction if India do the same kargil and enter ***(Azad Kashmir).. NO my friend thats what agreements are about(refer to Shimla Agreement)...Both sides need to respect LOC till we have a peaceful resolution...

We have LAC with China as well but apart from odd incursions from both side it has been a peaceful border..

Anyways what i was trying to explain was that there are lot of disimilarity between Siachen and Kargil and your logic that India did siachen we did Kargil is flawed. If you think otherwise please challenge my points(that i shared in my previous post) with your counter points and lets avoid to go in cirlces...

Ok tell me where else do skirmishes take place along our border? rajhistan punjab anywhere? answer is NO....why? uz that is international border! and crossing it would be an act of WAR MY FRIEND!

LoC well you think your army is sitting there and doesn't cross over as a skrimish party? both sides always try to move around the LoC inorder to have a better strategic location hence the unending episode of skrimishes on both sides! so kargil was not a DECLARATION OF WAR! it was a move to have a better strategic location on the LINE OF CONTROL.....and LoC like the name whoever controls it its theirs!

as for kargil well it did wake up the world in terms of making them realize that two crazy nations of INDIA & PAKISTAN armed to the teeth with nukes can fight over kashmir unless solved! and besides didn't india return to the table to talk until recently when the mumbai episode happened!



What shall india come up to table with??? How are you going to resolve an issue if you dont even have a stand on the issue??? ... Our stand is Kashmir is an integral part of India..Your stand is India's claim on Kashmir is illegal and Kashmir issue should be resolved with pleblicite... How is that a conclusion.....We have a conflict only because we have different stands....

again repeating myself yes we both have a different stand on the issue but india needs to come to the table saying right WE have a problem! india usually comes in saying kashmir its our integral part...its our problem YOU(pakistan) don't comment on it!



Only dialogue can lead to a solution which is acceptable to both the parties...Pakistan cannot ignore india's sentiments and vice versa on Kashmir and thats the reason converting LOC to IB seems to be a viable option..Something even comtemplated by Musharraf(obviously in different wording) and i shared the link with you...

well that my friend cannot be the solution yesterday KASHMIRIS celebrated a BLACK DAY! you turn kashmir into an international border and then what? we just ignore 60 years of fighting? that is INSANE!



and as for the thread well it started off as comparing similarities and differences between the kashmir issue & junagadh episode! i think both are identical the only difference is in the junagadh episode we sat and saw india annex it while in kashmir we said no more getting fooled by india

 

[deckingraj]

@Ice_Man

constructive discussion can happen only if you stop saying kashmir is our integral part! first recognize it as a problem!

I guess we are getting consumed on wording....When did you see india said that Kashmir is not a problem...but because Kashmir is a problem does that mean we should not even say what our stand is???? What kind of argument is that...We have a stand and you have a stand... With that both parties should meet with ready to make concessions for peace in the region...

by saying its your integral part is like u saying kashmir is no different from cochin,gujrat or mahrastra!

Yes we do not consider Kashmir different from cochin, gujarat or Maharashtra...You know right that elections are held in Jammu and Kashmir every 5 years like any other state in India...

again you just concluded something...by saying our stand is you are not sincere! like i said isn't an FIR lodged against hafeez saeed? it is right... means something is being done! and as for proof have you seen it....NO have i seen it NO....means either india has provided sufficent proof or it hasn't.....but like your usual way of talking you started of by saying ENOUGH PROOF HAS BEEN GIVEN!

Is it me who is saying enough proof has been given?? NO its what our government apart from many other investigation agencies stand...Only pakistani investigations and courts dont find them enough..now complement that by our mistrust for each other how do you expect India not to say they are not sincere even though Pakistan has committed that she wont let her land used against anyone for terrorism...

like i gave an example before....about the gujrat massacre where i have myself seen videos of MODI and BABU BAJRANGI accusing modi....that is ample proof...and yet modi is unharmed....the reason being there is NO SUFFICENT PROOF! the law of pakistan says clear evidence should be presented against the accused! so let things follow the course of LAW before you start saying not enough is being done! and big cases take atleast 10 years or so to conclude! even KASAB a clear man convicted of mumbai massacre is still not hung WHY? is he innocent NO! but law says we need people to testify we need proof and all sorts of evidence!

so stop concluding pakistan is not doing enough!

Whats wrong with you buddy??? Somtimes you bring tytler...sometime Modi??? I dont feel any shame in saying that its a failure of GOI for not being able to convict Modi...Tytler and all other you have mentioned...Can you say the same??? I have no proof but i strongly believe that Tytler, Modi are directly responsible for those massacres...What is your personal stand on Saeed???

Ok tell me where else do skirmishes take place along our border? rajhistan punjab anywhere? answer is NO....why? uz that is international border! and crossing it would be an act of WAR MY FRIEND!

Really...Care to explain why we went for a war in 1965...and what happened in 1999...I hope you are not saying Kargil was just a skirmish...The only reason region did not see another full fledged war was becuase of Nukes...
Also care to explain what was pakistan stand on any surgical strikes in ***(Azad Kashmir) after mumbai attacks???

Comon buddy lets conclude...Obviously LOC is not a border but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it...

LoC well you think your army is sitting there and doesn't cross over as a skrimish party? both sides always try to move around the LoC inorder to have a better strategic location hence the unending episode of skrimishes on both sides! so kargil was not a DECLARATION OF WAR! it was a move to have a better strategic location on the LINE OF CONTROL.....and LoC like the name whoever controls it its theirs!

You realy mean it??? How many times Kargil has happened??? Do you have any idea of the scale of Kargil and how dangerous it was...It was not one or two peaks...Don't compare firing across LOC with Kargil...Say thanks to god that Indian forces did make progress in getting the peaks back and finally NS called back your army..Hadn't been the case region would have seen its first and last nuclear exchange...

Apologies for saying it but i am looking forward for a constructive discussion with you..Last time you said India was wrong in doing Siachen(because its your land) and now you are justifying that being LOC one can simply cross it since its not IB...sound a little hypocritical..

as for kargil well it did wake up the world in terms of making them realize that two crazy nations of INDIA & PAKISTAN armed to the teeth with nukes can fight over kashmir unless solved!

Brother please give me some good reasons...Are you saying that before Kargil international community did not recognized Kashmir as an issue between India and Pak??? Before kargil and after it ...Kashmir is still considered a bilateral issue...did you see or heard anyone interfering...

and besides didn't india return to the table to talk until recently when the mumbai episode happened!

- India did not stopped talking about Kashmir and other issues after Mumbai carnage but right after Musharraf declared emergency in 2006(not sure about the exact year) and Pakistan went into political unstablity. Reason - No point in resolving issue with a leader who don't have complete control...Somthing which musharraf himself regret saying we were so close solving kashmit hadn't political unstability grapped Pakistan

_ You avoided my questions...what was Lahore Bus trip for??? It was not for fun buddy it was exactly for resolving issues...and that by both india and Pak on TALKING TABLE

again repeating myself yes we both have a different stand on the issue but india needs to come to the table saying right WE have a problem! india usually comes in saying kashmir its our integral part...its our problem YOU(pakistan) don't comment on it!

Again two much into words..though diplomacy dont work in such a naive language..so be rest assured that is not the case on Talking tables...however if one wishes to fall into propaganda than nothing can be done...Anyways this is your opinion that converting LOC into IB is not a solution...There was a great progress through back channels on Kashmir during musharraf time and one India Pak will get back to talking table the same charter will be discussed...So just wait and watch

well that my friend cannot be the solution yesterday KASHMIRIS celebrated a BLACK DAY!

Don't give too much into such news..I am not saying ignore kashmiri's but remember it was the same Kashmiri's that participated overwhelmingly in assembly elections.. Does that conclude they accepted India....I would say NO...because there are many people who support india...independent Kashmir...and getting merged with pakistan...

you turn kashmir into an international border and then what? we just ignore 60 years of fighting? that is INSANE!

So what do you want??? Carry on for another 60 years...Is that good for kashmiri's???? How difficult it is to see that both India and Pak are right there since 1947 war...Nothing on ground have changed...What does that mean??? To me it means if you don't change your viable solution(suitable to both parties) you will not get one.. Also are you failing to see that India is ready to forget about ***(Azad kashmir) even though we say Kashmir is our integral part...Does that sound any sort of concession to you???

 

[Hellfire]

First step Pakistan withdraws.....second step if India thinks that pakistan has withdrawn all tribesmen then they should withdraw themselves and the following is the main reason why pakistan would never withdraw!! and hence the whole UN resolution thing is a drama! by the UN and India

Thats exactly the reason why there has been no solution till date. You want a solution exclusively on your own terms and anything deterimental to your stance is "drama"!!! Your country till date is demanding implementation of plebiscite yet that is the only aspect of UN resolution acceptable to it ...... strange realpolitiks there!!!
Earlier you said your land...you have yet to answer why you had to "invade" your land in first place? If you mean historically then J&K was part of Sikh Kingdom and ruled by the Sikhs historically and before that the Mughals and before that the Mauryans .... so your historical claim is BS and about religious .... you may as well claim Iran, Iraq etc, who cares!

When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:

1. That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;

2. That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

3. That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.

Thats step 2 ... we are willing for it. You do your part and we ours!!!

What GoP could not digest was that there was no popular support for invasion in 1948 and infact there was an antipathy to the whole issue and withdrawl from territories would have meant that Pakistan would have had to accept defeat ... and a subsequent plebiscite would have seen J&K as an autonomous region under India something akin to Sikkim ...... with subsequent amalgamation into the Union of India. However I doubt your politicians thought along those lines and were so farsighted. Nehru certainly was not .....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thats exactly the reason why there has been no solution till date. You want a solution exclusively on your own terms and anything deterimental to your stance is "drama"!!! Your country till date is demanding implementation of plebiscite yet that is the only aspect of UN resolution acceptable to it ...... strange realpolitiks there!!!
Earlier you said your land...you have yet to answer why you had to "invade" your land in first place? If you mean historically then J&K was part of Sikh Kingdom and ruled by the Sikhs historically and before that the Mughals and before that the Mauryans .... so your historical claim is BS and about religious .... you may as well claim Iran, Iraq etc, who cares!




Thats step 2 ... we are willing for it. You do your part and we ours!!!

What GoP could not digest was that there was no popular support for invasion in 1948 and infact there was an antipathy to the whole issue and withdrawl from territories would have meant that Pakistan would have had to accept defeat ... and a subsequent plebiscite would have seen J&K as an autonomous region under India something akin to Sikkim ...... with subsequent amalgamation into the Union of India. However I doubt your politicians thought along those lines and were so farsighted. Nehru certainly was not .....

It is incorrect to argue that Pakistan is refusing to implement certain aspects of the UNSC resolutions - the UNSC resolutions, even while arguing for a Pakistani withdrawal initially, made that withdrawal subject to negotiations between India, Pakistan and a UN appointed commission/rapporteur.

The later resolutions became more specific in calling for a more 'bilateral withdrawal' (and we know that unless expressly specified, later resolutions override previous ones), instead of just Pakistan withdrawing, since it is obvious that neither side could be trusted to refrain from occupying the other sides territory in case of a unilateral withdrawal - India did not like that rather fair and common sense stance of the UN.

My position on the UNSC conditions argument has been explained in the 'UN Resolutions explained' sticky in the Kashmir section.

 

[Moorkh]

the biggest difference between kashmir and junagadh was the existence of a continuous boundary between kashmir and pakistan.

in the case of junagadh such a common border did not exist.

this in effect meant that the ruler of junagadh had no choice but to join india.

having a common border was one of the prequisites for the rulers to have a choice between the 2

 

[dvk1982]

Indian politcians will stir up emotions and nationalism by claiming Kashmir as an integral part of India. Pakistani politicians do likewise by stirring up revolt in Kashmir. All this is done to win votes and support in their country and the people of Kashmir are forgotten. If India and Pakistan is sincere about the fate of Kashmir then let the people of Kashmir decide what they want and respect that decision. Hold a referendum in Kashmir. It may sound like a wish in utopia but if Kashmir is resolved then I am certain that everything else which divides the peace and prosperity of India and Pakistan will fall away. More money to spend on its people and not for its army will cause most of the internal problems within India and Pakistan to fall away. India, Pakistan and Kashmir working together with Bangladesh and China could become the economic powerhouse of the world in time to come.

urs is a wishful thinking.... what is more important is to create prosperity and development to keep people busy in their lives....

just creating a seperate kashmir state... u guys can make the most complicated issues sound such silly... get real and come out of those goody bollywood bhai-bhai movies mentality

 

[ice_man]

@deckingraj

I guess we are getting consumed on wording....When did you see india said that Kashmir is not a problem...but because Kashmir is a problem does that mean we should not even say what our stand is???? What kind of argument is that...We have a stand and you have a stand... With that both parties should meet with ready to make concessions for peace in the region...

how can india say that Kashmir is a problem and it is our integral part! once you say its your integral part it stops the world from making comments on your areas! just like we will not like comments from india on punjab or sindhi...or you on mahrastra or gujrat or Uttar Pardesh! both parties should come thinknig right kashmir is a mutual problem...we both need to be flexible in order to resolve it! how can we talk of a problem when india considers it an "internal" problem!



Is it me who is saying enough proof has been given?? NO its what our government apart from many other investigation agencies stand...Only pakistani investigations and courts dont find them enough..now complement that by our mistrust for each other how do you expect India not to say they are not sincere even though Pakistan has committed that she wont let her land used against anyone for terrorism...
Whats wrong with you buddy??? Somtimes you bring tytler...sometime Modi??? I dont feel any shame in saying that its a failure of GOI for not being able to convict Modi...Tytler and all other you have mentioned...Can you say the same??? I have no proof but i strongly believe that Tytler, Modi are directly responsible for those massacres...What is your personal stand on Saeed???




ok so this is very confusing from you....the government of india with ample evidence cannot prosecute tytler & modi but GoP should prosecute saeed becuase india has in ITS OWN OPINON given enough evidence!

see let me summarize the issue here...SAEED isn't a free man he is under trial! let things run their course! and meanwhile try & finish off the case against KASAB!! let law of pakistan handle the issue!

- India did not stopped talking about Kashmir and other issues after Mumbai carnage but right after Musharraf declared emergency in 2006(not sure about the exact year) and Pakistan went into political unstablity. Reason - No point in resolving issue with a leader who don't have complete control...Somthing which musharraf himself regret saying we were so close solving kashmit hadn't political unstability grapped Pakistan
You avoided my questions...what was Lahore Bus trip for??? It was not for fun buddy it was exactly for resolving issues...and that by both india and Pak on TALKING TABLE


ok i don't understand when MUSHARRAF says KARGIL was importnat you refuse to listen to him but when he says the kashmir peace move got derailed you take it seriously! this time INDIA derailed the peace process!! and this excuse that oh we don't want to talk to an unstable government...is wrong the law or declaration will be binding! doesn't matter who is in power & that is why we hate ZARDARI cuz if that moron passes a resolution no one will be able to over rule it!


and the lahore bus trip well we will never know what could have been the outcome cuz we never got into the situation...besides BJP would have never done a peace deal on kashmir and you know it too!

 

[ice_man]

the biggest difference between kashmir and junagadh was the existence of a continuous boundary between kashmir and pakistan.

in the case of junagadh such a common border did not exist.

this in effect meant that the ruler of junagadh had no choice but to join india.

having a common border was one of the prequisites for the rulers to have a choice between the 2

it was the annexation of HYDERABAD & DECCAN and JUNAGADH that led pakistan to think if we sit around in the matter of KASHMIR india will follow the same policy of annexation

 

[deckingraj]

@Ice_Man

how can india say that Kashmir is a problem and it is our integral part! once you say its your integral part it stops the world from making comments on your areas! just like we will not like comments from india on punjab or sindhi...or you on mahrastra or gujrat or Uttar Pardesh! both parties should come thinknig right kashmir is a mutual problem...

Man if you have decided you are not gonna listen to my points than i can't help. What do you want india to say??? Kashmir is not integral part of india and is a disputed territory...Now may i ask then what is the dispute about???? Dispute is because india claims Kashmir to be integral part of india whereas Pakistan do not recognize Kashmir as india's integral part...Now you are saying that recognize Kashjmir as a dispute but do not say your stand for which the dispute is...honestly you are even supporting it...Anyways lets not discuss it more and agree to disagree...

we both need to be flexible in order to resolve it! how can we talk of a problem when india considers it an "internal" problem!

You seems to have some real issue...INdia always said Kashmir is a bilateral issue...When did it say its an internal problem..and yes both needs to be flexible...let me ask again from a stiff stand of Integral part to LOC as IB doesn't sound any flexibilty to you??? Feel free to ignore the questions again but then stop arguing about it...

ok so this is very confusing from you....the government of india with ample evidence cannot prosecute tytler & modi

Ample proof against tytler..modi??? Such comments will make you look like naive....Babu bajrag speaking on TV and accusing Modi is considered ample proof???? I told you my personal stand on these guys but unfortunately proofs are not there to convict them..tytler(due to time..no direct evidence)...modi(no direct evidence)


b

ut GoP should prosecute saeed becuase india has in ITS OWN OPINON given enough evidence!

India own opinion???...So international agencies...india investigation agencies all concluding the same thing means own opinion...great...what more shall i say...

see let me summarize the issue here...SAEED isn't a free man he is under trial! let things run their course! and meanwhile try & finish off the case against KASAB!! let law of pakistan handle the issue!

He is under trial??? What trial??? I hope you are aware that he has been freed from mumbai trial because of Lack of evidence...and thats where pakistan sincerity question arise..b/w you again did not share your personal stand on him..

ok i don't understand when MUSHARRAF says KARGIL was importnat you refuse to listen to him but when he says the kashmir peace move got derailed you take it seriously! this time INDIA derailed the peace process!! and this excuse that oh we don't want to talk to an unstable government...

Do you just like refuting or you even try to understand what points i am putting forward??? Are you suggesting that it is wise to solve a 62 years old issue with a country which is politically unstable??? It's not musharraf who say's Kashmir got derailed due to political unstablity this is what happened which can be verified with Musharraf's recent statements...Any wise man can easlily see what i am trying to say...I am sure you will get it as well...

is wrong the law or declaration will be binding! doesn't matter who is in power & that is why we hate ZARDARI cuz if that moron passes a resolution no one will be able to over rule it!

Law or declaration binding....Remember Shimla agreement...respect of LOC ...then your support of siachen vs kargil...where did the agreement goes??? No solution can work unless an atmosphere is created for it and have people's will in it...such an atmosphere can be created only by a stable government...when it comes to pakistan it is even more imperative because you have a history of coup's and there is no one center of power

P.S : Man i am sorry to say but a little disappointed with your replies. Not only you conveniently ignore my questions but soemtimes give such a naive reply that i feel i am wasting my time...My humble request if you are really interested in sharing and learning let's continue...If you just want to say India is evil blah blah...then let's stop here..and leave the discussion to readers interpretation

 

[ice_man]

@deckingraj

no point arguing with you you like giving everything your own twist and try and make my words something else altogether...so let's not continue further!

 

[deckingraj]

@Ice_man

no point arguing with you you like giving everything your own twist and try and make my words something else altogether...so let's not continue further!

i had no intentions of twisting your words but have tried to challenge them on face value.. If you can then please share one such example where you feel i twisted your words. I will show no shame in getting myself corrected. Anyways if you don't feel to continue i am fine with it...

Regards
Rajwinder Singh

 

[ice_man]

@deckingraj

will surely love to continue if you listen!

Man if you have decided you are not gonna listen to my points than i can't help. What do you want india to say??? Kashmir is not integral part of india and is a disputed territory...Now may i ask then what is the dispute about???? Dispute is because india claims Kashmir to be integral part of india whereas Pakistan do not recognize Kashmir as india's integral part...Now you are saying that recognize Kashjmir as a dispute but do not say your stand for which the dispute is...honestly you are even supporting it...Anyways lets not discuss it more and agree to disagree...

listen to your point what is your point? kashmir is india's integral part....ok then if you say that then i guess the argument can't be done because tomorrow (FOR EXAMPLE)you will have a complete right to comment about punjab or karachi or NWFP or balochistan! which my friend NO country can because integral parts are internal matter of a country!!!!

india says KASHMIR is our part & pakistan says its ours! but if one of us says hey its my integral part then there is no point in "DISCUSSING" cuz you are not claiming a stand you are stating....i say their is no Azad Kashmir their is no Indian Held kashmir....its a disputed territory which both are holding onto and an agreement for the WHOLE needs to be done not just a specific part of it!


You seems to have some real issue...INdia always said Kashmir is a bilateral issue...When did it say its an internal problem..and yes both needs to be flexible...let me ask again from a stiff stand of Integral part to LOC as IB doesn't sound any flexibilty to you??? Feel free to ignore the questions again but then stop arguing about it...

ok you contradicting yourself here buddy "KASHMIR IS OUR INTEGRAL PART" & "KASHMIR IS NOT OUR INTERNAL PROBLEM"

and as for LoC right now that you have established that LoC is located in a part where whoever controls whichever sector that's his.... because after all kashmir is a disputed territory....so YES you can cross over and come into Azad kashmir by all means!!!! no issues there buddy! its currently neither ours nor your's!!!!

and as for AZAAD KASHMIR it has its own government it has its own federal burea and everything! it is more like a seperate state the only thing that might people into believing that it is our part is the fact that our army is guarding its borders from the indians!!!

so yes when i argue about kashmir i am also counting the AZAAD KASHMIR as an area that needs to be discussed!



Ample proof against tytler..modi??? Such comments will make you look like naive....Babu bajrag speaking on TV and accusing Modi is considered ample proof???? I told you my personal stand on these guys but unfortunately proofs are not there to convict them..tytler(due to time..no direct evidence)...modi(no direct evidence)

ok again you are ranting your lines....their is no proof about MODI's involvement because babu bajrangi testifying is not ample proof....Bal Thackrey and shiv sena demolishing BABRI MASJID is not proof BUT wait a sec indian giving proof of SAEED's involvement should be accepted as bible! and it is the ultimate prooof!!!!

India own opinion???...So international agencies...india investigation agencies all concluding the same thing means own opinion...great...what more shall i say...

hey indian investigation agencies can't find "proof" against modi,tytlr,advani,bal thackrey BUT they have found proof against SAEED....and international agencies?? what international agencies u talking about?


He is under trial??? What trial??? I hope you are aware that he has been freed from mumbai trial because of Lack of evidence...and thats where pakistan sincerity question arise..b/w you again did not share your personal stand on him..

well you answered your own question lack of proof!!!! and please name international agencies that you referring to!! and my stand on him is the same as your stand on tytler,modi,thackrey!


Law or declaration binding....Remember Shimla agreement...respect of LOC ...then your support of siachen vs kargil...where did the agreement goes??? No solution can work unless an atmosphere is created for it and have people's will in it...such an atmosphere can be created only by a stable government...when it comes to pakistan it is even more imperative because you have a history of coup's and there is no one center of power


well.... you didn't respect the LoC by crossing SIACHEN.....we followed suite by crossing into kargil......

 

[deckingraj]

@Ice_Man...

Though i would have liked to see any wording of your that i played with but fir now seems we are back to square one ...I have noticed that you sometime dont answer to my direct questions...It would easy for us to discuss if you can answer me direct questions and also reply to them...Anyways let's try once again...

listen to your point what is your point? kashmir is india's integral part....ok then if you say that then i guess the argument can't be done because tomorrow (FOR EXAMPLE)you will have a complete right to comment about punjab or karachi or NWFP or balochistan! which my friend NO country can because integral parts are internal matter of a country!!!!

No...You are wrong here...You cannot say same about punjab or Karachi because unlike Kasmir you have accepted them as integral parts of each other country...Now tomorrow if i stand and say Washington DC is an integral part of india...I will considered as idiot....I hope you see the difference.

india says KASHMIR is our part & pakistan says its ours! but if one of us says hey its my integral part then there is no point in "DISCUSSING" cuz you are not claiming a stand you are stating....i say their is no Azad Kashmir their is no Indian Held kashmir....its a disputed territory which both are holding onto and an agreement for the WHOLE needs to be done not just a specific part of it!

Again your emphasis is more on wording...Let me ask you something here...why do think we have a dispute on Kashmir??? If you sincerely answer that you will find why India and Pak are saying what they are saying. Now on the talking table you will present your stand and other side will refute it with why they think your stand is not correct and then you will come up with some magic formulae to solve the issue with a resolution that is acceptable to both...

NOw i have asked you many times giving away ***(Azad Kasmir) even after saying J&k is our integral part means no concession to you???

One more food for thought...India always said that Kashmir is an integral part but still we had so many rounds of Talk...what does that imply...may be people who are trying to resolve the issue don't percieve it as end of discussion...what say???

ok you contradicting yourself here buddy "KASHMIR IS OUR INTEGRAL PART" & "KASHMIR IS NOT OUR INTERNAL PROBLEM"

I am surpised you can see them as contradicting...Kashmir is our integral part thats our stand...but how can be its just an internal problem when we have border dispute with a neighbouring country and fought 4 wars with it??? Balochistan is an example of internal problem...Another example of bilateral issue would be AP..India says its an integral part but does that mean while settling border dispute with china AP is not discussed???

and as for LoC right now that you have established that LoC is located in a part where whoever controls whichever sector that's his.... because after all kashmir is a disputed territory....so YES you can cross over and come into Azad kashmir by all means!!!! no issues there buddy! its currently neither ours nor your's!!!!

You are wrong here. If this is your personal opinion then i have no issues with it...But both governments dont see it like that...Thats why we had full fledge war in 1965...Kargil almost brought us close to it..and surgical strikes in *** after mumbai would have surely resulted in full fledge war...Now if it completelt legitimate to corss LOC then why the heck there is any LOC...we should keep fighting all the time to get more and more area...Does it sound OK to you??

and as for AZAAD KASHMIR it has its own government it has its own federal burea and everything! it is more like a seperate state the only thing that might people into believing that it is our part is the fact that our army is guarding its borders from the indians!!!

so yes when i argue about kashmir i am also counting the AZAAD KASHMIR as an area that needs to be discussed!

I never said that you are not arguing about whole kashmir..We are in agreement there...

ok again you are ranting your lines....their is no proof about MODI's involvement because babu bajrangi testifying is not ample proof....Bal Thackrey and shiv sena demolishing BABRI MASJID is not proof BUT wait a sec indian giving proof of of SAEED's involvement should be accepted as bible! and it is the ultimate prooof!!!!

When did i say that Indian proof's should be considered as Bible...But when neutral partires also say the same but Pakistan has different stand how the hell you think anyone can trust you are sincere about punishing him???

Also there is one difference here...These people have commited crimes(my opinion) in my country and have nothing to do with pakistan...Mr Saeed is a pakistani national who have commited crimes in my country and is still free in PAK...

hey indian investigation agencies can't find "proof" against modi,tytlr,advani,bal thackrey BUT they have found proof against SAEED....and international agencies?? what international agencies u talking about?

If you are saying no international agencies did paralled investigation on mumbai then i am sorry my friend i cant say much..In case you genuinely dont know just google it you will find plenty of reports...

well you answered your own question lack of proof!!!! and please name international agencies that you referring to!! and my stand on him is the same as your stand on tytler,modi,thackrey!

Great..if your stand is same then we are in agreement...Now lack of proof or lack of will only time will tell...

well.... you didn't respect the LoC by crossing SIACHEN.....we followed suite by crossing into kargil......

Comon...i have shown you disimilarities between Siachen and Kargil.. Answer them and you will the difference...but i suspect you would...becuase it might delute your stand...