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JF-17's various initial design phases & design resemblances

Maybe a stupid question but it fits nicely in this topic. During a search on my harddrive I found this old concept of a Romanian fighter project called IAR 95.

This type was planned to be powered by a Chinese WS-9 - aka Spey 202 - and looks remarkably similar to the early FC-1.

Is this pure coincidence ??? Or does anyone have more information ?

View attachment 426826

Hi,

After I got married in the 90's---there was this computer game---F22 fighter aircraft---i would be playing it for hours---then one day my wonderful wife came along with the ultimatum---I never played that game again.

Now tell me if you are married and how do you have so much time to look for these long forgotten items?

Advances in the compressor stages must be followed with major advances in the turbines otherwise it is no use;

so if your post is to be understood right, then it is logical assume that China can breed crystals and
they have incorporated air cooling in the turbines ?

This also means that they have enough data through the full performance spectrum to allow computers
to manage engines at all altitudes / pressure conditions.

Hi,

It is jut a matter of time---.

Thru hit and trail and spending mega bucks---the chinese are very close to success.
 
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Good find mate.

As usual Pakistani and Indian 'Engineeeeers' and their sloppy copy pastes of EVERYTHING and then slapping a Made in ******* stamp on it.

India and Pakistan both need to be renamed Tweekinstan and Bhindia! :D

caract.gif


More here:

http://www.incas.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=139&Itemid=122


IAR-95 ME technical data

Length: 16.0 m
Wing span: 9.3 m
Height: 5.45 m
Wing area: 27.9 m²
Empty weight: 7,880 kg
Max T-O weight: 15,200 kg
Weapons max. load: 3,200 kg
Powerplant: One Tumansky R-29-300 turbojet rated at 122kN with afterburner



Maybe a stupid question but it fits nicely in this topic. During a search on my harddrive I found this old concept of a Romanian fighter project called IAR 95.

This type was planned to be powered by a Chinese WS-9 - aka Spey 202 - and looks remarkably similar to the early FC-1.

Is this pure coincidence ??? Or does anyone have more information ?

View attachment 426826
 
. .
Good find mate.

As usual Pakistani and Indian 'Engineeeeers' and their sloppy copy pastes of EVERYTHING and then slapping a Made in ******* stamp on it.

India and Pakistan both need to be renamed Tweekinstan and Bhindia! :D

caract.gif


More here:

http://www.incas.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=139&Itemid=122


IAR-95 ME technical data

Length: 16.0 m
Wing span: 9.3 m
Height: 5.45 m
Wing area: 27.9 m²
Empty weight: 7,880 kg
Max T-O weight: 15,200 kg
Weapons max. load: 3,200 kg
Powerplant: One Tumansky R-29-300 turbojet rated at 122kN with afterburner

Hi,

Copying is not a simple art---actually it is very difficult---and to top it off---when you made a copy and made it better than the original design---that is awesome---.

Sometimes---you just need ideas to get moving---a push---a nudge in the right direction can do miracles.
 
.
Hi,

Copying is not a simple art---actually it is very difficult---and to top it off---when you made a copy and made it better than the original design---that is awesome---.

Sometimes---you just need ideas to get moving---a push---a nudge in the right direction can do miracles.

People who are not educated, can't understand process that goes behind developing an engineering machine.
For them, its as simple as a drawing on a board.

Technology, these days is changing so fast that keeping a product relevant, requires full awareness of future requirements, available technology, tools, materials and a team to put it together with success in given resources.

You know that, how fast car models and its technology is changing as compare to 20-30 years ago!
Even as buyer its hard for me to catch-up with, what is on for sale!
I bet you are also bewildered, because this is the situation in every engineering business.

What Pakistan + China achieved in aircraft industry during last 1.5 decades is indeed a revolution, and I admit it would not have been possible 30 years ago, simply because of the luxury of design tools available today, which were nonexistent in past.
In past sophisticated labs were needed to develop one tiny part /circuit, followed by production engineering to produce it with precision and durability.
Today all those labs are replaced with simple computers and soft-wares, which can simulate all and require fewer and simpler parameters from sensors to achieve same what was achieved in past with more and complex sensors.

In short, things today are done in a totally different way, as compare to they were done in past, but an ignorant man can always surprise you with his nonsenses.

Luckily we (Pakistan) are here today, and there will be no going back.
We are part of new technological era and we have all tools and resources to match the world, which actually would be chasing Pakistan in few years to come.
 
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People who are not educated, can't understand process that goes behind developing an engineering machine.
For them, its as simple as a drawing on a board.

Technology, these days is changing so fast that keeping a product relevant, requires full awareness of future requirements, available technology, tools, materials and a team to put it together with success in given resources.

You know that, how fast car models and its technology is changing as compare to 20-30 years ago!
Even as buyer its hard for me to catch-up with, what is on for sale!
I bet you are also bewildered, because this is the situation in every engineering business.

What Pakistan + China achieved in aircraft industry during last 1.5 decades is indeed a revolution, and I admit it would not have been possible 30 years ago, simply because of the luxury of design tools available today, which were nonexistent in past.
In past sophisticated labs were needed to develop one tiny part /circuit, followed by production engineering to produce it with precision and durability.
Today all those labs are replaced with simple computers and soft-wares, which can simulate all and require fewer and simpler parameters from sensors to achieve same what was achieved in past with more and complex sensors.

In short, things today are done in a totally different way, as compare to they were done in past, but an ignorant man can always surprise you with his nonsenses.

Luckily we (Pakistan) are here today, and there will be no going back.
We are part of new technological era and we have all tools and resources to match the world, which actually would be chasing Pakistan in few years to come.

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post. People have often assumed that making a copy is easy---. Most people who make a copy produce a lower quality product than the one being copied---.

I don't think the design of the JF17 was copied---I think it was shared from someone. And as you mentioned---the computers did the rest---.

Design and copying and the frame of mind to do a successful end product are a frame of mind---not everyone can do it successfully.
 
. .
Hi,

The more I looked into it---the more it became evident was that the JF17 design---utility and function was totally influenced by the F20 Tigershark aircraft---.

The following video was a great surprise for me---.

 
. .
Hi,

The more I looked into it---the more it became evident was that the JF17 design---utility and function was totally influenced by the F20 Tigershark aircraft---.

The following video was a great surprise for me---.
Yes the design did suggests that how ever during that time US and USSR were producing jets which were based on German captured scientists work , It is surprizing to note many planes of that era resembles West/East blocks ,My understanding is Gruman Input to Mig 33 program for chinese was basis of that

main-qimg-9a6493deae7c1e974f58909ccc72ed18-c
 
.
Hi,

The more I looked into it---the more it became evident was that the JF17 design---utility and function was totally influenced by the F20 Tigershark aircraft---.

The following video was a great surprise for me---.

Exactly when i first saw it; it appeared like the F20; those of us old enough remembered it; I think if i recall back in the 80s' this was also being proposed as a sale to your country instead of F-16.
 
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Exactly when i first saw it; it appeared like the F20; those of us old enough remembered it; I think if i recall back in the 80s' this was also being proposed as a sale to your country instead of F-16.

Hi,

The first models without the DSI were more like the Tigershark.

The spine behind the cockpit is very similar---. At around 9 min mark---the video talks about modular design---also about the short turn around time---about how one tech can do the basic service---about the extremely short spool up time.

It is expected that if there is an SU30 in the hangar at an airstrip in indian Kashmir---and it starts its engine---and a JF17 starts its engine at Kamra---the JF17 would be in the air and on top of the indian airbase by the time the SU30 is ready for take off---which is about 12-15 minutes time for the SU30---and about 1-2 min time for the JF17.

If you look at the cockpit layout of the Tigershark and the JF17---the JF17 has a lots more influence from that aircraft than anything else---.

We also hear that the Grippen is also an off-shoot of the F20 Tigershark---.

It just simple amazes me that how far are the americans ahead of some of the designs than the rest of the world---.
 
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It is about the troubled history of JF-17/FC-1 in development, written by 施佬. Maybe someone can translate it from Chinese into English.

从超7一路走来的“枭龙”,咋比歼10服役还晚呢?
2018-03-22 施佬 扬基侦查站


前几天,巴基斯坦空军总参谋长索哈尔在离职之前的最后一次演讲中透露说,枭龙Block 3的方案设计已经完成,并表示巴基斯坦将至少采购50架枭龙Block 3。对于总产量已经超过100架的枭龙家族来说,这无疑是个不错的好消息。

640

▲ 刚刚退休的巴基斯坦总参谋长索哈尔

当然这件事情听起来也有些奇怪,为什么以为空军总参谋长在回首自己戎机生涯(空军嘛,自然不能戎马了)的最后一次演讲里特意讲到了这个。殊不知对于巴基斯坦这样的国家来说,这种“退休之前不忘中巴合作”的表态和“把工作安排到下一任头上”的态度,正是说明了巴基斯坦军方对于枭龙项目未来发展的信心。

640


虽然现在枭龙已经被看做是中巴航空工业精诚合作(当然活儿主要是中国和美俄合作方干的)的典范,但说好事多磨也好,说这事始料未及也罢,早年这一项目的推动,不谈中美关系变化导致的项目合作者的巨变,即使在中巴之间这样看似“铁哥们”的关系里,也存在着这样那样的麻烦。

这种潜在麻烦的存在,也是索哈尔要特意在退役前再说一遍枭龙Block 3的原因之一。

640

▲ 别看现在小巴一副枭龙战机国之骄傲的样子,当年巴基斯坦对于这个项目的态度,那真是反复变化

怎么个麻烦呢?早在枭龙这个项目还叫“佩刀II”的时候,项目就曾经被搁浅了一次。怎么回事呢,当时的“佩刀II”项目对于巴基斯坦而言算是意义重大,特别是巴基斯坦总统穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克高度支持这一项目,在1987年的时候就批了12亿美元的资金,并且给出了150架的意向订单。

640

▲ 当时的“佩刀II”计划还非常地“歼-7”,基本可以看做是把歼-8改歼-8II的经验用到了歼-7的升级上

但是1988年8月17日,穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克一行在乘专机返回伊斯兰堡时,专机发生爆炸,他和机上人员全部遇难。而“佩刀II”计划也随着人亡政息,暂时停止了。

640

▲ 时任巴基斯坦总统的穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克是“佩刀II”计划的坚定支持者,但是无奈空难无情啊……

直到1992年,当中航技再次派人前往巴基斯坦介绍改进后的“佩刀II”时,转机发生了。当年负责“佩刀II”的巴基斯坦项目主管法鲁克准将这时候刚刚晋升空军总参谋长,他对这个项目表示出了好感,随后在他的推动下,他很快再次确认了150架的订单,并和中方一道把项目进化成了“超-7”。

640

▲ 到了超-7的时候,这个飞机基本已经没有什么歼-7的意思在了

后来法鲁克继续晋升,当了三军联合参谋长之后,“超7”项目进一步取得进展。他上台之初就和中航技总经理刘国明声明“我在位三年”,意思是我在任啥事儿都好说,你们抓紧办。果然这三年“超-7”的进展是顺风顺水。

三年之后,更喜欢西方装备的阿巴斯接任,果然对“超-7”兴致索然,项目于是基本又停滞了三年,中巴双方虽然一直定期开会,但项目本身却没有啥正经的进展。

这一情况直到1997年巴基斯坦换了空军参谋长之后才有改观。

到1999年,“超-7”终于到了草签合同的阶段,中方希望趁着巴基斯坦总理谢里夫访华之际“趁热打铁”把合同给签了,但是巴方的项目主任却死活不肯。最后还是巴基斯坦方面的“老朋友”帮上了忙,这位主任的上司因为和中航技关系匪浅,也正面想他表达了希望尽快草签的意见。于是在上级“授意”之下,1999年6月,中巴双方顺利草签了协议。

640

▲ 在“枭龙”飞起来之前,这个项目其实多少还是有些搁浅的风险的

而枭龙项目全力研制的最后一把助推,则要归功于2000年就任的巴基斯坦空军参谋长穆沙夫。这位中将正好又是1992年重启“超7”时巴基斯坦方面的项目主管。在他的支持下,“枭龙”得以以非常务实的态度全面推进展开,并在2000年以后展开原型机的全面试飞。

640

▲ 当年的项目负责人,如今成了“枭龙”战机的最有力的推动者,正是在穆沙夫的支持下,“枭龙”战机才能以“飞起来再说”的态度,先行完成了试飞的重要节点

随着飞机试飞的不断推进,“枭龙”项目也终于是苦尽甘来。2007年,随着第一批“枭龙”装备巴基斯坦空军,这个几经周折的项目终于获得成功。

640

▲ 时至今日,“枭龙”已然成为了巴基斯坦空军和航空制造业的一张“名片”
 
.
It is about the troubled history of JF-17/FC-1 in development, written by 施佬. Maybe someone can translate it from Chinese into English.

从超7一路走来的“枭龙”,咋比歼10服役还晚呢?
2018-03-22 施佬 扬基侦查站


前几天,巴基斯坦空军总参谋长索哈尔在离职之前的最后一次演讲中透露说,枭龙Block 3的方案设计已经完成,并表示巴基斯坦将至少采购50架枭龙Block 3。对于总产量已经超过100架的枭龙家族来说,这无疑是个不错的好消息。

640

▲ 刚刚退休的巴基斯坦总参谋长索哈尔

当然这件事情听起来也有些奇怪,为什么以为空军总参谋长在回首自己戎机生涯(空军嘛,自然不能戎马了)的最后一次演讲里特意讲到了这个。殊不知对于巴基斯坦这样的国家来说,这种“退休之前不忘中巴合作”的表态和“把工作安排到下一任头上”的态度,正是说明了巴基斯坦军方对于枭龙项目未来发展的信心。

640


虽然现在枭龙已经被看做是中巴航空工业精诚合作(当然活儿主要是中国和美俄合作方干的)的典范,但说好事多磨也好,说这事始料未及也罢,早年这一项目的推动,不谈中美关系变化导致的项目合作者的巨变,即使在中巴之间这样看似“铁哥们”的关系里,也存在着这样那样的麻烦。

这种潜在麻烦的存在,也是索哈尔要特意在退役前再说一遍枭龙Block 3的原因之一。

640

▲ 别看现在小巴一副枭龙战机国之骄傲的样子,当年巴基斯坦对于这个项目的态度,那真是反复变化

怎么个麻烦呢?早在枭龙这个项目还叫“佩刀II”的时候,项目就曾经被搁浅了一次。怎么回事呢,当时的“佩刀II”项目对于巴基斯坦而言算是意义重大,特别是巴基斯坦总统穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克高度支持这一项目,在1987年的时候就批了12亿美元的资金,并且给出了150架的意向订单。

640

▲ 当时的“佩刀II”计划还非常地“歼-7”,基本可以看做是把歼-8改歼-8II的经验用到了歼-7的升级上

但是1988年8月17日,穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克一行在乘专机返回伊斯兰堡时,专机发生爆炸,他和机上人员全部遇难。而“佩刀II”计划也随着人亡政息,暂时停止了。

640

▲ 时任巴基斯坦总统的穆罕默德·齐亚·哈克是“佩刀II”计划的坚定支持者,但是无奈空难无情啊……

直到1992年,当中航技再次派人前往巴基斯坦介绍改进后的“佩刀II”时,转机发生了。当年负责“佩刀II”的巴基斯坦项目主管法鲁克准将这时候刚刚晋升空军总参谋长,他对这个项目表示出了好感,随后在他的推动下,他很快再次确认了150架的订单,并和中方一道把项目进化成了“超-7”。

640

▲ 到了超-7的时候,这个飞机基本已经没有什么歼-7的意思在了

后来法鲁克继续晋升,当了三军联合参谋长之后,“超7”项目进一步取得进展。他上台之初就和中航技总经理刘国明声明“我在位三年”,意思是我在任啥事儿都好说,你们抓紧办。果然这三年“超-7”的进展是顺风顺水。

三年之后,更喜欢西方装备的阿巴斯接任,果然对“超-7”兴致索然,项目于是基本又停滞了三年,中巴双方虽然一直定期开会,但项目本身却没有啥正经的进展。

这一情况直到1997年巴基斯坦换了空军参谋长之后才有改观。

到1999年,“超-7”终于到了草签合同的阶段,中方希望趁着巴基斯坦总理谢里夫访华之际“趁热打铁”把合同给签了,但是巴方的项目主任却死活不肯。最后还是巴基斯坦方面的“老朋友”帮上了忙,这位主任的上司因为和中航技关系匪浅,也正面想他表达了希望尽快草签的意见。于是在上级“授意”之下,1999年6月,中巴双方顺利草签了协议。

640

▲ 在“枭龙”飞起来之前,这个项目其实多少还是有些搁浅的风险的

而枭龙项目全力研制的最后一把助推,则要归功于2000年就任的巴基斯坦空军参谋长穆沙夫。这位中将正好又是1992年重启“超7”时巴基斯坦方面的项目主管。在他的支持下,“枭龙”得以以非常务实的态度全面推进展开,并在2000年以后展开原型机的全面试飞。

640

▲ 当年的项目负责人,如今成了“枭龙”战机的最有力的推动者,正是在穆沙夫的支持下,“枭龙”战机才能以“飞起来再说”的态度,先行完成了试飞的重要节点

随着飞机试飞的不断推进,“枭龙”项目也终于是苦尽甘来。2007年,随着第一批“枭龙”装备巴基斯坦空军,这个几经周折的项目终于获得成功。

640

▲ 时至今日,“枭龙”已然成为了巴基斯坦空军和航空制造业的一张“名片”
plz post link and summary of the article in english
 
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plz post link and summary of the article in english
As a newcomer, I don't have the permission to post the link.
It is about the influence from Pakistan to the development of JF-17/FC-1. Some officers were interested in it, but some not.
 
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