JF-17's various initial design phases & design resemblances

[Dazzler]

Hi,

I am not here to bash---you need to check the definition---.

My direction is air force---his direction is me---you did not say anything at that time---why jump in now.



Hi,

My direction was air force---you directed the issue at me---. I am not the issue---the issue is the JF17---the French EW suite---and the JF17 BLOCKS---.

I understand very well that it is very embarrassing for young people to see their air force fail miserably time after time---and I feel for your concerns. But you need to stop covering up the BLUNDERS of that Paf---let them take the HEAT.

There is no rep of the Paf on this board that has ever answered the criticism---if the Paf had TRUTH standing behind it---they would have someone represent on the largest defence website of the world.

Goodness, dont you just let it go?

This is pure offtopic stuff. should i even respond or what?

 

[Zain Malik]

It is a good aircraft but lets not overrate it. The WS-10A still had manufacturing reliability issues around 2011. The PAF will stick to the RD-93.

PAF will choose Ws-10 for next block..
Rd-93 is blocking exports.

 

[messiach]

It is a good aircraft but lets not overrate it. The WS-10A still had manufacturing reliability issues around 2011. The PAF will stick to the RD-93.

I am not aware of 'manufacturing reliability issues' for PWS-10/A. Maybe its something new. The original design had a seven-core high pressure compressor adopted from AL-31 (Su-27-30) which had disc compression and expansion problems. That needed a new generation of fab-technologies, which were developed in time before a new high pressure compressor was developed for PWS series engines. Pakistan must use this kind of an approach.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not aware of 'manufacturing reliability issues' for PWS-10/A. Maybe its something new. The original design had a seven-core high pressure compressor adopted from AL-31 (Su-27-30) which had disc compression and expansion problems. That needed a new generation of fab-technologies, which were developed in time before a new high pressure compressor was developed for PWS series engines. Pakistan must use this kind of an approach.

Hi,

Thank you very much for two wonderful posts on the subject matter that no one knew about.

There was so much insider information in it that most readers and those posting comments just totally missed what you had stated---.

I had previously requested the mods to change your title to ' Professional ' a couple of times---but for reasons better known to them---your title has stayed as Full Member---.

I think the readers must re-read your last two posts on the subject matter.

 

[WarFariX]

PAF will choose Ws-10 for next block..
Rd-93 is blocking exports.

WS-13 will be used

 

[Arsalan]

Hi,

I am not here to bash---you need to check the definition---.

My direction is air force---his direction is me---you did not say anything at that time---why jump in now.

Well i would not have raised the objection if i didn't felt that way. I hope you do recognize that i am always supportive of your posts when you are correctly pointing out the mistakes. This time i feel you are wrong with that and thus i pointed out. Didn't knew you will take it personally.

About the definition and the meanings, sir, WE BOTH KNOW what it is and what happens around.

In short, again, when you are on the right i take great pleasure in learning something from your post and am always in support so when i feel you are on the wrong i take it as my RIGHT to point out that as well. Isn't that what we advocate when we talk about constructive debate and positive criticism?

 

[khanasifm]

Couple of comments

1 not all system for JF came from j10 it's a myth
2 when paf could not get weatern avionics China offered j10 avionics in 2000 which was Rejected per paf history
3 JF use power pc processor based glass cockpit which did not existed at the time on j10
4 when Chinese af pilot looked at JF during shaheed exercises they were impressed regular af pilots from su27 etc
5 not all JF system are Chinese for paf for example ew and in future may be targeting pod from turkey but Chinese pod has been tested and integrated paf looks like going for Turkish but preferred French but again it's long term benefits va short term
6 weapon integration for paf JF and foreign sales may be different depending upon customer choice forexample paf went with mar-1 arm but customer may go with Chinese especially Asian customers (know fact )
7 looks like paf would like to stay with US based lg bombs rather than Chinese as they are already in inventory and tried and tested
8 block upgrade I, II and III have both software and Hardware, depending on upgrade may be done at o level or I level

I.e organizational or intermediate level at the base

Lastly not sure but pac has started rd93 overhauls in coutry ?? Need info as mi17 overhauls has started in country now

 

[Surya 1]

From the design of JF 17, It appear to be an aircraft which whose LERX will generate huge lift and plane should take off in less than 400 m. However it does not appear on ground, It takes a longer time to take off. I think its wing area is too small to give JF 17 an advantage of LERX and plane must be very heavy to justify RD 93 engine. If pakistan focuses on Aerodynamic improvement and wing redesing and slashes 1 ton weight and put a more powerful engine, This can be a very good plane.

 

[Bilal9]

From the design of JF 17, It appear to be an aircraft which whose LERX will generate huge lift and plane should take off in less than 400 m. However it does not appear on ground, It takes a longer time to take off. I think its wing area is too small to give JF 17 an advantage of LERX and plane must be very heavy to justify RD 93 engine. If pakistan focuses on Aerodynamic improvement and wing redesing and slashes 1 ton weight and put a more powerful engine, This can be a very good plane.

This is true. There is lots of scope for increasing wing area, either in multi-geometry fashion or using a delta configuration. Here are some concept.....the first one is the new multi-geometry F-7 wing (with greater area and cord at outer half sections) developed by the Chinese Defense industry, which increased better maneuverability at lower speeds and higher angles of attack. It also pioneered flaperons - which was also used on the FC-1 slash JF17.

The second wing picture (sans tail feathers) is a bit untried as a concept and seems to be a wild idea.

It will definitely require artificial computer control of flying surfaces and fly-by-wire,,,,,,,

Also conformal fuel tanks and electronics storage in mid-spine (a la F-16) have been in the offing for some time I believe......this one below is a dedicated strike version with a smart bomb load.

 

[帅的一匹]

From the design of JF 17, It appear to be an aircraft which whose LERX will generate huge lift and plane should take off in less than 400 m. However it does not appear on ground, It takes a longer time to take off. I think its wing area is too small to give JF 17 an advantage of LERX and plane must be very heavy to justify RD 93 engine. If pakistan focuses on Aerodynamic improvement and wing redesing and slashes 1 ton weight and put a more powerful engine, This can be a very good plane.

Weight reduction is small case. China can cut Jf17 weight by using h3D printing tech and more composite material. In the same time, the cost will also increase a lot.if you can pay enough money, China can customize a JF17 with 30-40% combat ability surge.

China should have sold JF17 to BD back in 2005, but you know Russia didn't allow us to export RD93 to third county back then. Lucky that we finally have WS13E, the tech advancement in WS15 development will back feed WS13 development, the ultimate goal is to make it max 12 tons wet thrust. China is in a rise, any attempt to impede this process already been too late.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I am not aware of 'manufacturing reliability issues' for PWS-10/A. Maybe its something new. The original design had a seven-core high pressure compressor adopted from AL-31 (Su-27-30) which had disc compression and expansion problems. That needed a new generation of fab-technologies, which were developed in time before a new high pressure compressor was developed for PWS series engines. Pakistan must use this kind of an approach.

Advances in the compressor stages must be followed with major advances in the turbines otherwise it is no use;

so if your post is to be understood right, then it is logical assume that China can breed crystals and
they have incorporated air cooling in the turbines ?

This also means that they have enough data through the full performance spectrum to allow computers
to manage engines at all altitudes / pressure conditions.

 

[Deino]

Maybe a stupid question but it fits nicely in this topic. During a search on my harddrive I found this old concept of a Romanian fighter project called IAR 95.

This type was planned to be powered by a Chinese WS-9 - aka Spey 202 - and looks remarkably similar to the early FC-1.

Is this pure coincidence ??? Or does anyone have more information ?

 

[messiach]

True, increase in HP turbine rotor inlet temperatures is mostly due improvements in bypass bleed for blade/vane cooling.

Advances in the compressor stages must be followed with major advances in the turbines otherwise it is no use;
so if your post is to be understood right, then it is logical assume that China can breed crystals and
they have incorporated air cooling in the turbines ?

 

[SQ8]

Maybe a stupid question but it fits nicely in this topic. During a search on my harddrive I found this old concept of a Romanian fighter project called IAR 95.

This type was planned to be powered by a Chinese WS-9 - aka Spey 202 - and looks remarkably similar to the early FC-1.

Is this pure coincidence ??? Or does anyone have more information ?

View attachment 426826

It is possible the design had assistance and with the Chinese collaboration could be sourced. We know the Z-10 is essentially a Kamov design so it is not unlikely that the initial concepts for the JF-17 came from Russia or Eastern europe

 

[messiach]

Initial concepts for the JF-17 came from Russia (& not from polland or uganda or......)
Version B is undergoing advanced runs thesedays (try live acme mapper).

It is possible the design had assistance and with the Chinese collaboration could be sourced. We know the Z-10 is essentially a Kamov design so it is not unlikely that the initial concepts for the JF-17 came from Russia or Eastern europe