JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[khanasifm]

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2010/09/digital-data-link.html

https://m.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2010/september/LMUpgradeSniperAdvancedTa.html

 

[Dazzler]

View attachment 461076

to me Aselpod is not just a basic FLIR as it performs function of tracking of targets as well

It combines many functions of Litening series and has some from Sniper as well. The Aselpod at least on paper does seem to have a very interesting feature set. The external housing is almost a replica of Litening G4 series which is not a bad idea considering the immense success of this series targeting pods.

Litening G4, the latest in the series..

Aselpod..

 

[Thorough Pro]

IRST = Infra Red Search and Track
FLIR = Forward Looking Infra Red

It will help, IRST performs better in bad weather/night compared to a FLIR/Spot tracker combo but the difference is not HUGE and IRST wont really be missed with the FLIR in place along with video & laser spot tracker

 

[khanasifm]

It combines many functions of Litening series and has some from Sniper as well. The Aselpod at least on paper does seem to have a very interesting feature set. The external housing is almost a replica of Litening G4 series which is not a bad idea considering the immense success of this series targeting pods.

Litening G4, the latest in the series..

Aselpod..

Diff in resolution 1024x1024 vs 768x512 for aselpod

Datalink perhaps these ar difference but for paf it was French pod vs Chinese vs aselpod and aselpod won based on price performance

Not sure if you need pod datalink may be pod feeds pic/image to hdd and then from hdd input feed can be transmitted via link 17 down to ground station ??

 

[Bratva]

Diff in resolution 1024x1024 vs 768x512 for aselpod

Datalink perhaps these ar difference but for paf it was French pod vs Chinese vs aselpod and aselpod won based on price performance

Not sure if you need pod datalink may be pod feeds pic/image to hdd and then from hdd input feed can be transmitted via link 17 down to ground station ??

As per the aselpod team I met in DIMDEX, current aselpod doesnot has Any Datalink i.e No Hardware whatsoever for Datalink so Link-17 wont work either . Even if they plan to add Data link in distant future, Current existing PODS that PAF purchased wont be capable to be upgraded. They will have to buy new Data Linked Pods.

 

[HRK]

As per the aselpod team I met in DIMDEX, current aselpod doesnot has Any Datalink i.e No Hardware whatsoever for Datalink so Link-17 wont work either . Even if they plan to add Data link in distant future, Current existing PODS that PAF purchased wont be capable to be upgraded. They will have to buy new Data Linked Pods.

Is it technically possible to use the data recorded by Aselpod to transmit to grounds stations and to selected nods within the network using link-17 of JF-17, same as we are using C-130 integrated with Star safir EO/IR sensor to transfer data to ground stations using our link-17 system ...??

 

[Bratva]

Is it technically possible to use the data recorded by Aselpod to transmit to grounds stations and to selected nods within the network using link-17 of JF-17, same as we are using C-130 integrated with Star safir EO/IR sensor to transfer data to ground stations using our link-17 system ...??

Now coming to technical part. Yes it is possible but is it feasible probably not. Or Else America would have done it with Sniper Pod instead of Embedding Datalink in SNIPER XR ITSELF

The procedure would happen like this. We need to install a storage device within JF-17. A HDD. Then we need ASELPOD HDD to send data to JF-17 HDD. From JF-17 HDD, The Link-17 hardware will fetch data and send it ito selected nodes or ground stations.

So the complexity has increased. Designers has not factored in Where to put an additional storage for JF-17 Block-1 or Block-2. The existing Link-17 Hardware doesnot have the capability of Fetching information from external storage. You need to upgrade the Link-17 HDD to be able to talk with JF-17 HDD. So Additional wirings and integration problems .

We can cut the middle man i.e.JF-17 HDD. But there is no way we can communicate with Aselpod HDD directly unless it is on ground and Technicians are connected with aselpod Interface to retrieve data. Which means, Turks has to modify the POD physically so that POD HDD can communicate with JF-17 Link-17 Hardware


Even if it is done. Link-17 is equivalent to 1 MB PTCL DSL. So it will transmit the data at 100-200 KB/s speed and that too with LAG. The main purpose for datalinking with groundstations is to fetch information in Real time. You can imagine if you wanna see a youtube video on 1 MB link. How much headaches you have to face.

Diff in resolution 1024x1024 vs 768x512 for aselpod

Datalink perhaps these ar difference but for paf it was French pod vs Chinese vs aselpod and aselpod won based on price performance

Not sure if you need pod datalink may be pod feeds pic/image to hdd and then from hdd input feed can be transmitted via link 17 down to ground station ??

HDD cannot communicate with LINK-17 because both are separate devices. LINK-17 hardware needs to be connected to ASELPOD HDD to fetch data and then send it across. Which is physically not possible. Hence even in SNIPER XR, they have installed a datalink instead of Linking SNIPER with LINK-16.

P.S. I was mistaken about C-130 Downlink to ground station. Thanks to @HRK

 

[HRK]

I guess you are mistaken about C-130 sending data to ground station. As per Alan warnes report AFAIK Pakistan wanted to do some telemetry tests but nothing reported afterwards whether they actually implemented or not.

We have seen C-130 capable of ISR integrated with PAF ground station for live feeds in Wajah Saeed TV program from 2016

relevant part from 30:38 onward
(NOTE: it was covering the training center of CCS)

 

[khanasifm]

Paf history 1999-2013 states Isr capability where falcon uav and heli and other assets such as airborne c130 can send real-time info now images can be transmitted video ?? Again do not know but Isr is about real time video not sure where is this 1 M speed info ??

Just because it’s called link 17 does not means it’s like 16 limited to same bandwidth but again I do not know and paf book calls it tdl

https://quwa.org/2016/01/02/pakistans-shift-to-coin-part-4-airborne-isr-and-airstrikes/

https://www.viasat.com/products/isr-data-links

 

[fanna4paf2]

what is problem with camera man

what is problem with camera man

 

[My-Analogous]

The French always did their best to offer us with latest technology like Mirage 2000 but we're the one who backed

With price hike of normally 20 to 30% from the market

 

[Arsalan]

IRST = Infra Red Search and Track
FLIR = Forward Looking Infra Red

Whats the point bro?

View attachment 461076

to me Aselpod is not just a basic FLIR as it performs function of tracking of targets as well

Using video tracking and laser spot tracking. Not IR tracking thus not IRST as far as i understand.

 

[MystryMan]

what is problem with camera man

what is problem with camera man

The problem is with the PTV camera.

 

[khanasifm]

Whats the point bro?


Using video tracking and laser spot tracking. Not IR tracking thus not IRST as far as i understand.

Meets the purpose air to air tracking via tv and/or IR

Sniper and most other pods also now provides The capability so it’s no long just air to ground

 

[Bratva]

We have seen C-130 capable of ISR integrated with PAF ground station for live feeds in Wajah Saeed TV program from 2016
View attachment 461144

relevant part from 30:38 onward
(NOTE: it was covering the training center of CCS)

Paf history 1999-2013 states Isr capability where falcon uav and heli and other assets such as airborne c130 can send real-time info now images can be transmitted video ?? Again do not know but Isr is about real time video not sure where is this 1 M speed info ??

Just because it’s called link 17 does not means it’s like 16 limited to same bandwidth but again I do not know and paf book calls it tdl

https://quwa.org/2016/01/02/pakistans-shift-to-coin-part-4-airborne-isr-and-airstrikes/

https://www.viasat.com/products/isr-data-links

To Understand Link-17, We need to understand LINK-16. Because Link-17 is fashioned on the basis of LINK 16.

There are two Datalinks , TDL and TCDL. Former caters for voice and data and TCDL caters only for Video streaming from ISR assets

Link-16, as it was envisioned and still primarily used for. VOICE AND DATA communication only. This is the official Public Guide.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capa.../Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

And It contains the Bandwidth of Link-16 and Link-16 Enhanced Data rate. From the document you will the bandwidth of LINK-16 is low because it was designed only to exchange messages or voice not for sending Video streams


http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capa.../Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

http://www.datalinksolutions.net/pdf/Link-16-TacNet-Tactical-Radio-data-sheet.pdf

http://ids.nic.in/UK Doctrine/UK (5).pdf


Americans,British and NATO Allies are using Another Data link called Common Data Link To send real time imagery and Video feeds to ground station from ISR Assets . Let me be clear, They dont use LINK-16 for that. Here is some links which mention range and Bandwidth and speed of CDL

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/tcdl.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunctional_Information_Distribution_System


But it doesnt mean LINK-16 is not capable to send Video streams across. It is capable but the range and bandwith are the limiting factors as per these two excerpts taken from two different links

MIL EMBEDDED: What are Link 16’s technical specifications?

McDONOUGH: The waveform is time division multiple access. The frequency range is about 900-1,200 MHz, and it has a notch filter in the middle because of potential interference there. Regarding data rates, by today’s standards, it doesn’t really have too much wideband throughput, about 128 messages per second in normal operations.

MIL EMBEDDED: Was Link 16 originally an audio channel or a data channel?

McDONOUGH: The original system was conceptualized as a CNI, a Communications Navigation Identification system, pre-GPS. So the navigation aspect of it enables users to measure time-of-arrival of pulses from different radios, thus establishing the relative location of the transmitter. It’s all digital, and also has what they call J voice, digital voice capability in the radios; however, not all platforms care to implement that.

MIL EMBEDDED: Can you theorize where military communications are going? Link 16 is 35 years old, yet people are using Ethernet in comparison.

McDONOUGH: We are in the middle of the JTRS WNW wide band network and waveform development, and interoperability is the name of the game right now in the mil comms industry. The Navy’s, Marines’, and Air Force’s air components and surface components are very much involved in Link 16. The Army is just starting to get into it. Link 16 is more of an air operations capability than a ground forces kind of network. However, the only true mission for air forces out there today is close-air support for the combat soldier on the ground. It’s common communications, primarily digital communications, that enable all the battlefield components to work as one to get a mission done.

An example illustrating the Link 16 system’s potential is if warriors from Mountain Home AFB bring in an F-15E (see Figure 1) from a squadron to Bagrum Air Force Base in Afghanistan and want to put Link 16 imagery into the backseat of that F-15E. Link 16 is developed with all the tactics, techniques, and procedures that needed to be done so that a troop in contact can take an image of his location, and using PowerPoint on a laptop, then annotate it as to the streets and buildings and so forth. And then it moves through our system up to the cockpit of the Strike Eagle, at which time the weapon systems operator in the backseat looks at that annotated picture and can contact the soldiers in combat and discuss where he will deliver ordnance, by looking at the picture and literally looking out of his cockpit saying, “Yes I’ve got it. I see the building you’re on. I see the building they’re in. We’ve got it.”

And that’s just one example. Streaming video can also be transmitted over Link 16 but eats up all available bandwidth.

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the evolving battlefield requirements for TDLs?

McDONOUGH: Enhancements pertain to the type of information being demanded by the commanders on the ground. It’s very quick, for example: Where’s the bad guy? Where’s the truck? Where’s the individual planting an IED? The interconnection of new defense systems is what’s driving all the communication systems. Now you have RPVs [Remotely Piloted Vehicles] with electro optical and IR sensors – a variety of things loitering over the battlespace with the ability to pour voluminous amounts of data in real time coming off of the battlefield. What do you do with this data? How do you distribute it?

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the best ways to distribute this data, then?

McDONOUGH: There are many data links out there today such as Link 16, as we’ve discussed, plus Link 11 and Common Data Link (CDL). CDL is really more of a carrier of information of wide band or high-demand information and streaming video and so forth. But we’re not doing 24 words per minute teletypes anymore: We’re trying to plan and execute commands within 10 or 15 minutes. And so TDL must have the ability to support an eyeball of one sort or another on the battlespace as threats evolve, and troops must stay in contact. Getting that processed data disseminated into the proper hands of a Strike Force is very, very important.

http://mil-embedded.com/articles/tactical-president-ceo-tactical-communications-group/


One of the vendors of Link-16 Hardware, VIASAT demonstrated the capability to send video via Link-16

ZyGoVideo Streaming Video Powers ViaSat Link-16 Demonstrations
San Diego, CA(9/23/2002) -
ZyGoDigital announced today that ViaSat has begun demonstrations of their Link-16 Multi-functional Information Distribution System (MIDS) terminals using streaming video compressed with ZyGoVideo? Pro. ZyGoVideo was chosen for these demonstrations because the codec produces excellent quality video, highlighting the 300kbps data rate of the Link-16 Enhanced Throughput (ET) communications channels. Both pre-compressed and live streaming videos were demonstrated to the Undersecretary of Defense.

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Press...owers-ViaSat-Link-16-Demonstrations_7482.aspx




So coming back to our original discussion. Based on what we know about PAF capabilities and resources, LINK-17 was envisioned as Data and Voice transmission standard as per @Oscar who can tell us if LINK-17 has the capability to beam Video back to ground or not. My assumption is it can not hence C-130 Is using some other equipment in it to beam back the Video from IR Sensors back to ground

@HRK If you remember Alan warnes report on C-130 ISR capabilities. The officials in it did say , in future, they wll install telemetry equipment in C-130 to beam the data back to ground station. So this is what causing doubt in my mind that about LINK-17 capability to beam back video back to ground