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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

To Understand Link-17, We need to understand LINK-16. Because Link-17 is fashioned on the basis of LINK 16.

There are two term TDL and TCDL. Former caters for voice and data and TCDL caters only for Video streaming from ISR assets

Link-16, as it was envisioned and still primarily used for. VOICE AND DATA communication only. This is the official Public Guide. And It contains the Bandwith of Link-16 and Link-16 Enhanced Data rate. From the document you will the bandwith of LINK-16 is low because it was designed only to exchange messages or voice not for sending Video streams


http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capa.../Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

http://www.datalinksolutions.net/pdf/Link-16-TacNet-Tactical-Radio-data-sheet.pdf

http://ids.nic.in/UK Doctrine/UK (5).pdf


Americans,British and NATO Allies are using Another Data link called Common Data Link To send real time imagery and Video feeds to ground station from ISR Assets . Let me be clear, They dont use LINK-16 for that. Here is some links which mention range and Bandwidth and speed of CDL

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/tcdl.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunctional_Information_Distribution_System


But it doesnt mean LINK-16 is not capable to send Video streams across. It is capable but the range and bandwith are the limiting factors as per these two excerpts taken from two different links

MIL EMBEDDED: What are Link 16’s technical specifications?

McDONOUGH: The waveform is time division multiple access. The frequency range is about 900-1,200 MHz, and it has a notch filter in the middle because of potential interference there. Regarding data rates, by today’s standards, it doesn’t really have too much wideband throughput, about 128 messages per second in normal operations.

MIL EMBEDDED: Was Link 16 originally an audio channel or a data channel?

McDONOUGH: The original system was conceptualized as a CNI, a Communications Navigation Identification system, pre-GPS. So the navigation aspect of it enables users to measure time-of-arrival of pulses from different radios, thus establishing the relative location of the transmitter. It’s all digital, and also has what they call J voice, digital voice capability in the radios; however, not all platforms care to implement that.

MIL EMBEDDED: Can you theorize where military communications are going? Link 16 is 35 years old, yet people are using Ethernet in comparison.

McDONOUGH: We are in the middle of the JTRS WNW wide band network and waveform development, and interoperability is the name of the game right now in the mil comms industry. The Navy’s, Marines’, and Air Force’s air components and surface components are very much involved in Link 16. The Army is just starting to get into it. Link 16 is more of an air operations capability than a ground forces kind of network. However, the only true mission for air forces out there today is close-air support for the combat soldier on the ground. It’s common communications, primarily digital communications, that enable all the battlefield components to work as one to get a mission done.

An example illustrating the Link 16 system’s potential is if warriors from Mountain Home AFB bring in an F-15E (see Figure 1) from a squadron to Bagrum Air Force Base in Afghanistan and want to put Link 16 imagery into the backseat of that F-15E. Link 16 is developed with all the tactics, techniques, and procedures that needed to be done so that a troop in contact can take an image of his location, and using PowerPoint on a laptop, then annotate it as to the streets and buildings and so forth. And then it moves through our system up to the cockpit of the Strike Eagle, at which time the weapon systems operator in the backseat looks at that annotated picture and can contact the soldiers in combat and discuss where he will deliver ordnance, by looking at the picture and literally looking out of his cockpit saying, “Yes I’ve got it. I see the building you’re on. I see the building they’re in. We’ve got it.”

And that’s just one example. Streaming video can also be transmitted over Link 16 but eats up all available bandwidth.

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the evolving battlefield requirements for TDLs?

McDONOUGH: Enhancements pertain to the type of information being demanded by the commanders on the ground. It’s very quick, for example: Where’s the bad guy? Where’s the truck? Where’s the individual planting an IED? The interconnection of new defense systems is what’s driving all the communication systems. Now you have RPVs [Remotely Piloted Vehicles] with electro optical and IR sensors – a variety of things loitering over the battlespace with the ability to pour voluminous amounts of data in real time coming off of the battlefield. What do you do with this data? How do you distribute it?

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the best ways to distribute this data, then?

McDONOUGH: There are many data links out there today such as Link 16, as we’ve discussed, plus Link 11 and Common Data Link (CDL). CDL is really more of a carrier of information of wide band or high-demand information and streaming video and so forth. But we’re not doing 24 words per minute teletypes anymore: We’re trying to plan and execute commands within 10 or 15 minutes. And so TDL must have the ability to support an eyeball of one sort or another on the battlespace as threats evolve, and troops must stay in contact. Getting that processed data disseminated into the proper hands of a Strike Force is very, very important.

http://mil-embedded.com/articles/tactical-president-ceo-tactical-communications-group/


One of the vendors of Link-16 Hardware, VIASAT demonstrated the capability to send video via Link-16

ZyGoVideo Streaming Video Powers ViaSat Link-16 Demonstrations
San Diego, CA(9/23/2002) -
ZyGoDigital announced today that ViaSat has begun demonstrations of their Link-16 Multi-functional Information Distribution System (MIDS) terminals using streaming video compressed with ZyGoVideo? Pro. ZyGoVideo was chosen for these demonstrations because the codec produces excellent quality video, highlighting the 300kbps data rate of the Link-16 Enhanced Throughput (ET) communications channels. Both pre-compressed and live streaming videos were demonstrated to the Undersecretary of Defense.

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Press...owers-ViaSat-Link-16-Demonstrations_7482.aspx




So coming back to our original discussion. Based on what we know about PAF capabilities and resources, LINK-17 was envisioned as Data and Voice transmission standard as per @Oscar who can tell us if LINK-17 has the capability to beam Video back to ground or not. My assumption is it can not hence C-130 Is using some other equipment in it to beam back the Video from IR Sensors back to ground
Link 17 is Link 16 with Link 22 features such as more robust waveform and message formats.

It cannot transmit video.
 
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Link 17 is Link 16 with Link 22 features such as more robust waveform and message formats.

It cannot transmit video.
so are we using some other data transfer system for video streaming ....?
like videos from UAVs ...
 
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To Understand Link-17, We need to understand LINK-16. Because Link-17 is fashioned on the basis of LINK 16.

There are two term TDL and TCDL. Former caters for voice and data and TCDL caters only for Video streaming from ISR assets

Link-16, as it was envisioned and still primarily used for. VOICE AND DATA communication only. This is the official Public Guide. And It contains the Bandwith of Link-16 and Link-16 Enhanced Data rate. From the document you will the bandwith of LINK-16 is low because it was designed only to exchange messages or voice not for sending Video streams


http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capa.../Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

http://www.datalinksolutions.net/pdf/Link-16-TacNet-Tactical-Radio-data-sheet.pdf

http://ids.nic.in/UK Doctrine/UK (5).pdf


Americans,British and NATO Allies are using Another Data link called Common Data Link To send real time imagery and Video feeds to ground station from ISR Assets . Let me be clear, They dont use LINK-16 for that. Here is some links which mention range and Bandwidth and speed of CDL

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/tcdl.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunctional_Information_Distribution_System


But it doesnt mean LINK-16 is not capable to send Video streams across. It is capable but the range and bandwith are the limiting factors as per these two excerpts taken from two different links

MIL EMBEDDED: What are Link 16’s technical specifications?

McDONOUGH: The waveform is time division multiple access. The frequency range is about 900-1,200 MHz, and it has a notch filter in the middle because of potential interference there. Regarding data rates, by today’s standards, it doesn’t really have too much wideband throughput, about 128 messages per second in normal operations.

MIL EMBEDDED: Was Link 16 originally an audio channel or a data channel?

McDONOUGH: The original system was conceptualized as a CNI, a Communications Navigation Identification system, pre-GPS. So the navigation aspect of it enables users to measure time-of-arrival of pulses from different radios, thus establishing the relative location of the transmitter. It’s all digital, and also has what they call J voice, digital voice capability in the radios; however, not all platforms care to implement that.

MIL EMBEDDED: Can you theorize where military communications are going? Link 16 is 35 years old, yet people are using Ethernet in comparison.

McDONOUGH: We are in the middle of the JTRS WNW wide band network and waveform development, and interoperability is the name of the game right now in the mil comms industry. The Navy’s, Marines’, and Air Force’s air components and surface components are very much involved in Link 16. The Army is just starting to get into it. Link 16 is more of an air operations capability than a ground forces kind of network. However, the only true mission for air forces out there today is close-air support for the combat soldier on the ground. It’s common communications, primarily digital communications, that enable all the battlefield components to work as one to get a mission done.

An example illustrating the Link 16 system’s potential is if warriors from Mountain Home AFB bring in an F-15E (see Figure 1) from a squadron to Bagrum Air Force Base in Afghanistan and want to put Link 16 imagery into the backseat of that F-15E. Link 16 is developed with all the tactics, techniques, and procedures that needed to be done so that a troop in contact can take an image of his location, and using PowerPoint on a laptop, then annotate it as to the streets and buildings and so forth. And then it moves through our system up to the cockpit of the Strike Eagle, at which time the weapon systems operator in the backseat looks at that annotated picture and can contact the soldiers in combat and discuss where he will deliver ordnance, by looking at the picture and literally looking out of his cockpit saying, “Yes I’ve got it. I see the building you’re on. I see the building they’re in. We’ve got it.”

And that’s just one example. Streaming video can also be transmitted over Link 16 but eats up all available bandwidth.

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the evolving battlefield requirements for TDLs?

McDONOUGH: Enhancements pertain to the type of information being demanded by the commanders on the ground. It’s very quick, for example: Where’s the bad guy? Where’s the truck? Where’s the individual planting an IED? The interconnection of new defense systems is what’s driving all the communication systems. Now you have RPVs [Remotely Piloted Vehicles] with electro optical and IR sensors – a variety of things loitering over the battlespace with the ability to pour voluminous amounts of data in real time coming off of the battlefield. What do you do with this data? How do you distribute it?

MIL EMBEDDED: What are the best ways to distribute this data, then?

McDONOUGH: There are many data links out there today such as Link 16, as we’ve discussed, plus Link 11 and Common Data Link (CDL). CDL is really more of a carrier of information of wide band or high-demand information and streaming video and so forth. But we’re not doing 24 words per minute teletypes anymore: We’re trying to plan and execute commands within 10 or 15 minutes. And so TDL must have the ability to support an eyeball of one sort or another on the battlespace as threats evolve, and troops must stay in contact. Getting that processed data disseminated into the proper hands of a Strike Force is very, very important.

http://mil-embedded.com/articles/tactical-president-ceo-tactical-communications-group/


One of the vendors of Link-16 Hardware, VIASAT demonstrated the capability to send video via Link-16

ZyGoVideo Streaming Video Powers ViaSat Link-16 Demonstrations
San Diego, CA(9/23/2002) -
ZyGoDigital announced today that ViaSat has begun demonstrations of their Link-16 Multi-functional Information Distribution System (MIDS) terminals using streaming video compressed with ZyGoVideo? Pro. ZyGoVideo was chosen for these demonstrations because the codec produces excellent quality video, highlighting the 300kbps data rate of the Link-16 Enhanced Throughput (ET) communications channels. Both pre-compressed and live streaming videos were demonstrated to the Undersecretary of Defense.

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Press...owers-ViaSat-Link-16-Demonstrations_7482.aspx




So coming back to our original discussion. Based on what we know about PAF capabilities and resources, LINK-17 was envisioned as Data and Voice transmission standard as per @Oscar who can tell us if LINK-17 has the capability to beam Video back to ground or not. My assumption is it can not hence C-130 Is using some other equipment in it to beam back the Video from IR Sensors back to ground

@HRK If you remember Alan warnes report on C-130 ISR capabilities. The officials in it did say , in future, they wll install telemetry equipment in C-130 to beam the data back to ground station. So this is what causing doubt in my mind that about LINK-17 capability to beam back video back to ground
Ok observe one more thing in the video that the screen of link-17 is not showing any video but some sort of chart similar to ATC chart
upload_2018-3-23_22-44-42.png
 
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Meets the purpose air to air tracking via tv and/or IR

Sniper and most other pods also now provides The capability so it’s no long just air to ground
Never said that it just air to groud, neither did i said that its inferior. In fact, if you go to starting post, i did mentioned that it will really manage itself fine enough. Still not IRST (and that was the question) :(
 
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I hope congratulations are not premature. Its a significant milestone for JF-17 program if indeed Aselsan's pod is integrated on JF-17.
Just a little addition (on Block 2). I dont think the additional hardpoint was ever going to be on Block 2 which is why it has been positioned on the Central belly point. The important point to note is that it has been integrated with JFT. I suspect the chin mounted or another hardpoint below or to the side of the air inlet might be the place for it on Block 3. However lets wait and see.
A
 
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Just a little addition (on Block 2). I dont think the additional hardpoint was ever going to be on Block 2 which is why it has been positioned on the Central belly point. The important point to note is that it has been integrated with JFT. I suspect the chin mounted or another hardpoint below or to the side of the air inlet might be the place for it on Block 3. However lets wait and see.
A

All previous blocks can be upgraded to latest block per pac documentary when and if needed actually 1 and 2 is mostly software except ifr and Env systems
 
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All previous blocks can be upgraded to latest block per pac documentary when and if needed actually 1 and 2 is mostly software except ifr and Env systems
No hardpoint addition either?
A
 
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No hardpoint addition either?
A
Easier said than done.
The pathway exists but the load testing and structure changes will probably mean that most upgrades will be software, most of which is already being rolled out to the earlier airframes; advantages of using C derivatives.
 
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Flightglobal reporting that KLJ-7A has been selected as the aesa radar for thunder. They are referring to a china daily report regarding NRIET head's (Hu MingChun) comment to media.

EDIT: the article also claims that the radar can be used to upgrade in service block 1 / 2.
 
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Flightglobal reporting that KLJ-7A has been selected as the aesa radar for thunder. They are referring to a china daily report regarding NRIET head's (Hu MingChun) comment to media.

EDIT: the article also claims that the radar can be used to upgrade in service block 1 / 2.

China daily interviewed me last night :rofl:

Thanks for confirmation though.

This green one is one the first eight to arrive, and has a kill to its name..
jft.jpg
 
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This is a must see for JF17 lovers---- 2:30----and the rest of the stuff---modular design at 9:20---aesa radar nose---minimal staff for maintenance and servicing---smart weapons.

This is basically the parent aircraft of the JF17.

@Windjammer @Mentee @Dazzler



Listen from 3:30---pretty much same spool up time for the JF17

 
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