JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[nomi007]

open breaks

 

[AFlover]

And with the current announced changes e.g. IFR, better avionics, improved passive radar, and dual rack?

Hi,

We will have to wait and see what BLK 2 has---right now it is pretty much speculation.

 

[raahaat7]

Sir,

Firs of all I am not a 'sahab'----. Secondly---I am a firm believer of the fact that there must be a serious debate about issues----. You look at a PICTURE thru your eyes---and I look thru mine----. If for some reason I see something totally different---then I put it as I see it.

If you do not have the ability to comprehend it-----that is your problem---.

Thirdly----for all my discussions and arguments----I give a reason, a solution, a direction. But you cannot see the full picture the moment you see anything going against the grain of your belief deeply ingrained in you by the culture that you live in.

MastanKhan sahab, i realy re7ect u for ur veiws and the title of sahab perfectly sits besides ur name, as a mark of respect.
Your concern for the NOW is appreciated, but when 99 percent of the public fails to pay its taxes each year there is nothing much that can be done. How can the public make the gov accountable when it is itself responsible for most of its miseries. Just how?
Now lets look at things purely from a technological perspective. Slowly but surely an industrial base is coming up when there was none before. In due time when the critical mass is acheived, things are going to speed up. Patience and perseverence is the key.

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanKhan sahab, i realy re7ect u for ur veiws and the title of sahab perfectly sits besides ur name, as a mark of respect.
Your concern for the NOW is appreciated, but when 99 percent of the public fails to pay its taxes each year there is nothing much that can be done. How can the public make the gov accountable when it is itself responsible for most of its miseries. Just how?
Now lets look at things purely from a technological perspective. Slowly but surely an industrial base is coming up when there was none before. In due time when the critical mass is acheived, things are going to speed up. Patience and perseverence is the key.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. JF 17 is a wonderful aircraft---it will be an exceptional aircraft when it is "ready"--- I know that---you know that---but till then you do not have a second aircraft that will fill in the void!!!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

And with the current announced changes e.g. IFR, better avionics, improved passive radar, and dual rack?

Hi,

Some where between a 4 and a 4.25---. This an extremely potent system----but for this aircraft to be used to its fullest abilities---from a good aircraft to become an extraordinary aircraft---it needs the umbrella of a heavy---.

It will have to fly under the shadow of an air superiority fighter---like the Mig 21 BIS flying behind the SU 30's---like the F 16 flying with the F 15's---and in due time F 16 had formed its own place with the right kind of package and power plant and electronics.

 

[Viper0011.]

Some where between a 4 and a 4.25---.
like the F 16 flying with the F 15's---and in due time F 16 had formed its own place with the right kind of package and power plant and electronics.

I agree with the above assessment. In fact, I've said the same thing over time that in general, with JFT or without the JFT, the PAF needs a few squadrons of twin turbine jets. I'd even suggest as far as going to the US (and through the US to KSA) to get their used -15's as they are buying European jets in crazy numbers. Or, there are other used -15's the PAF can get. With JSF starting its service, I am sure 3-4 squadrons of -15's will become available for the PAF. Another option is J-11. These will add another platform to maintain but it is the need of the hour.

Next thing after this, the PAF needs to start working on (if not already) on Stealthy jets. If by 2020, there isn't a Stealthy platform being inducted (albeit a single engine one), the PAF will hand air supremacy in a platter to India. Who, by then, will have start to use stealth PakFa in daily operations (a few would be enough to disrupt the PAF's flight envelops in all ranges) backed up by a large number of SU-30's, Rafale and a couple dozen AESA based AWACS (made in India) and all other kinds of modern weapons.
The post isn't to scare anyone off or sound anti-Pakistan, it just a true picture. The PAF planning team need to understand that they can't miss the boat like they did in the 1990's and then again in 2000's. This time, the boat will probably not come back.

The JFT may be another good option to turn Stealthy with redesign of the airframe (or start to look into J-31, etc). But time is of critical essence here.

 

[MastanKhan]

Orangzaib,

Within 'minutes' all of Paf's planning bit the dust----ie---2---3 weeks ago---. Mr Modi gave carte blanche to its frontline commanders to escalate combat as they feel fit. None in Pakistan air force ever dreamed that situation would become that dire.

Suddenly paf finds itself holding the short end of the stick one more time. Its much touted aircraft is nowhere to be seen---it is not ready yet.

Fortunately for them---the SU 30 just falls to earth out of the blue skies because the pilots seats decide to eject themselves---the rafale contract is still in pending----the trainer aircract has issues popping up with its tail and rudder---.

Pak navy wants 30JF 17----they would be better off with a sqdrn of JF 17's and a sqdrn of JH7S----.

The air force in itself---off course needs a couple of sqdrn's of either the F 15's or the j11---15.

 

[Viper0011.]

Within 'minutes' all of Paf's planning bit the dust----ie---2---3 weeks ago---. Mr Modi gave carte blanche to its frontline commanders to escalate combat as they feel fit. None in Pakistan air force ever dreamed that situation would become that dire.
Suddenly paf finds itself holding the short end of the stick one more time. Its much touted aircraft is nowhere to be seen---it is not ready yet.
The air force in itself---off course needs a couple of sqdrn's of either the F 15's or the j11---15.

I think the PAF needs to lease or purchase either J-11's or -15's, I think they can obtain either. Both China and the KSA influence can help if financial backing can exist, armed by AMRAAMS or in J-11s case, SD-10 (or black market Archer?), these can serve as a good option for now.

JFT needs to come up to speed rather quickly with IFR probe, better avionics and multi-hard point racks for SD-10's. That's very critical. Also, its sad to see that Pakistan doesn't have indigenous built SAM system yet? A medium to long range SAM system proliferated in layers across the border would definitely help.

The PN is a different story all together. I think they need a total of 3-4 squadrons but due to money issues, they are asking for 30 jets. A better situation would be 4 squadrons. 2 can be JFT's and the other 2 can be either used Mirage 2000's or J-10's or J-15's if the PN can get them. Even in PN's case, you still need a hi-lo as you'll be facing Mig-29 MK's with Harriers, Jags supported by Mirages from the land based IN stations.
I think the least the PAF can do, is to go shopping for used -15's or J-11/15's. If these don't become a reality than sizable number of -16's ADF or used Block 40 or more for immediate BVR engagement capability. With the -16's. you'll need 200 of these, supported by 250 advance JFT could do the trick but still single engine platform without the ability to be a missile truck.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the PAF needs to lease or purchase either J-11's or -15's, I think they can obtain either. Both China and the KSA influence can help if financial backing can exist, armed by AMRAAMS or in J-11s case, SD-10 (or black market Archer?), these can serve as a good option for now.

JFT needs to come up to speed rather quickly with IFR probe, better avionics and multi-hard point racks for SD-10's. That's very critical. Also, its sad to see that Pakistan doesn't have indigenous built SAM system yet? A medium to long range SAM system proliferated in layers across the border would definitely help.

The PN is a different story all together. I think they need a total of 3-4 squadrons but due to money issues, they are asking for 30 jets. A better situation would be 4 squadrons. 2 can be JFT's and the other 2 can be either used Mirage 2000's or J-10's or J-15's if the PN can get them. Even in PN's case, you still need a hi-lo as you'll be facing Mig-29 MK's with Harriers, Jags supported by Mirages from the land based IN stations.
I think the least the PAF can do, is to go shopping for used -15's or J-11/15's. If these don't become a reality than sizable number of -16's ADF or used Block 40 or more for immediate BVR engagement capability. With the -16's. you'll need 200 of these, supported by 250 advance JFT could do the trick but still single engine platform without the ability to be a missile truck.

Hi,

I think paf needs a Devil's Advocate----they have been at it for too long and most of their decisions have been anti state----on the verge or of actual treason. I think it is out of incompetence----and a lack of POLITICAL situational awareness----. They are still living in the dog fight world.

Pakistanis have been gushing over the PAF for too long----these guys need to be smashed to the ground and need to smell the dirt ---.

I think it would be a good time to release Dr Afridi and find 3 to 4 sqdrn's of F 16's and 2 to 3 sqdrn's of F 15's----+ other goodies.

 

[Donatello]

Orangzaib,

Within 'minutes' all of Paf's planning bit the dust----ie---2---3 weeks ago---. Mr Modi gave carte blanche to its frontline commanders to escalate combat as they feel fit. None in Pakistan air force ever dreamed that situation would become that dire.

Suddenly paf finds itself holding the short end of the stick one more time. Its much touted aircraft is nowhere to be seen---it is not ready yet.

Fortunately for them---the SU 30 just falls to earth out of the blue skies because the pilots seats decide to eject themselves---the rafale contract is still in pending----the trainer aircract has issues popping up with its tail and rudder---.

Pak navy wants 30JF 17----they would be better off with a sqdrn of JF 17's and a sqdrn of JH7S----.

The air force in itself---off course needs a couple of sqdrn's of either the F 15's or the j11---15.

Sir JH-7 is an excellent naval support fighter to go hand in hand with JF-17, but for it to make it to PAF/PN they need to come out of their single engine fighter mentality. I have mentioned JH-7 way back in 2010 on this forum, it was the perfect aircraft for naval support, had enough payload and range. Changing times call for changing strategy. If we look across the board, JH-7 offers the usual tailor made fit for PAF, probably better than the Flankers. However, it is up to the planners to decide.
F-15s are not going to come. The only way a heavy can make it to PAF is if Russia allows flankers through China (difficult) and PAF can have resources. A Flanker is 2-3 times as expensive to procure and maintain than JF-17.

I agree that we need some heavies, but that goes against the PAF's concept of rationalizing the fleet to only two main types, plus as always, we are broke as hell. Greece has a better chance of buying Flankers than us.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

I think paf needs a Devil's Advocate----they have been at it for too long and most of their decisions have been anti state----on the verge or of actual treason. I think it is out of incompetence----and a lack of POLITICAL situational awareness----. They are still living in the dog fight world.

Pakistanis have been gushing over the PAF for too long----these guys need to be smashed to the ground and need to smell the dirt ---.

I think it would be a good time to release Dr Afridi and find 3 to 4 sqdrn's of F 16's and 2 to 3 sqdrn's of F 15's----+ other goodies.

@WebMaster

Any way in which we can get the message across to PAF AHQ? We, the citizens are concerned. We want to know what is being done to protect the skies and beat the enemy.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

@Donatello @MastanKhan

Sir, i have been reading your posts regarding Indian hawkish attitude and deliberate flare up of hostilities by them at LoC. All out war is a very distant probability. Modi sarkar has its own agenda, they are doing all this to please internal audience. The more serious challenge to Pakistan is more of a diplomatic one then military. Indians are some what impatient with the withdrawal of Coalition forces from Afghanistan+Operation ZeA successes. The kind of diplomatic honeymoon they have been enjoying vis-a-vs Pakistan after 9/11 is about to be ending now. With West attention shifting to ISIS and middle east, Indians want to squeeze off some last juice from this closing window. Remember 2001 attack on Indian parliament and subsequent stand off also 2008 mumbai attacks and its aftermath. Both times Indians were able to get concessions from Pakistan on Kashmir issue. Pakistan did gave up its historic stance on Kashmir due to its weak political and diplomatic position as well as international pressure. Biggest success for India was that it shifted Kashmir issue from a legal and moral freedom struggle to just another Islamic terrorism issue.

Now India is trying hard to get Pakistan to a stance where it is forced to accept LoC as a permanent border. Indians are also interested to implement Israel like solution to Kashmir by revoking article 370 and changing demographics of Kashmir. Nawaz Sharif government docile attitude towards India and very weak internal political strength is acting as a catalyst in this equation.

Having said this, the moral of story is to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Strong PAF is guarantee of peace in South Asia.With the induction of F16 Block 52 and BVR capability, balance is somewhat restored as far as Air warfare is concerned. Indian air force is strong on papers but there are lies some big damn lies. Rafale is not coming before 2018. MKI fleet is not 100% available at any given time. Mig29, Mirage 2000 upgrades are pending and long behind schedules. Obsolete Mig27 and Mig21 are not going to give IAF air superiority alone. MKIs will not be available for each and every role also and on every front.

What if in case of war Pakistan decide to play a game of denial? Can India in current situation afford an all out war?

One factor which everyone forget (may be conveniently), there is some understanding between Pakistan and Saudis. In case of all out war, it will not be a surprise if IAF have to encounter F15 too. Any how kindly let this point be a fantasy as of now.

Coming back to JF17 in a naval role. JF17 has not that much of long range but it can very well deny Karachi blockade. Pakistan EEZ is roughly 200nm in Arabian sea and that what PN job is to defend. IMO, J10B (a delta wing) is more ideal for naval role then JF17.

One more question for knowledgeable guys over here, can we design or almost reverse engineer a Mirage III/V like fighter in future? Afterall its been 50 years now that we are operating them, over hauling them. With little modifications in design, chinese engine and available avionics, isn't it will be feasible to start our new project after JF17?

 

[Donatello]

@Donatello @MastanKhan

Sir, i have been reading your posts regarding Indian hawkish attitude and deliberate flare up of hostilities by them at LoC. All out war is a very distant probability. Modi sarkar has its own agenda, they are doing all this to please internal audience. The more serious challenge to Pakistan is more of a diplomatic one then military. Indians are some what impatient with the withdrawal of Coalition forces from Afghanistan+Operation ZeA successes. The kind of diplomatic honeymoon they have been enjoying vis-a-vs Pakistan after 9/11 is about to be ending now. With West attention shifting to ISIS and middle east, Indians want to squeeze off some last juice from this closing window. Remember 2001 attack on Indian parliament and subsequent stand off also 2008 mumbai attacks and its aftermath. Both times Indians were able to get concessions from Pakistan on Kashmir issue. Pakistan did gave up its historic stance on Kashmir due to its weak political and diplomatic position as well as international pressure. Biggest success for India was that it shifted Kashmir issue from a legal and moral freedom struggle to just another Islamic terrorism issue.

Now India is trying hard to get Pakistan to a stance where it is forced to accept LoC as a permanent border. Indians are also interested to implement Israel like solution to Kashmir by revoking article 370 and changing demographics of Kashmir. Nawaz Sharif government docile attitude towards India and very weak internal political strength is acting as a catalyst in this equation.

Having said this, the moral of story is to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Strong PAF is guarantee of peace in South Asia.With the induction of F16 Block 52 and BVR capability, balance is somewhat restored as far as Air warfare is concerned. Indian air force is strong on papers but there are lies some big damn lies. Rafale is not coming before 2018. MKI fleet is not 100% available at any given time. Mig29, Mirage 2000 upgrades are pending and long behind schedules. Obsolete Mig27 and Mig21 are not going to give IAF air superiority alone. MKIs will not be available for each and every role also and on every front.

What if in case of war Pakistan decide to play a game of denial? Can India in current situation afford an all out war?

One factor which everyone forget (may be conveniently), there is some understanding between Pakistan and Saudis. In case of all out war, it will not be a surprise if IAF have to encounter F15 too. Any how kindly let this point be a fantasy as of now.

Coming back to JF17 in a naval role. JF17 has not that much of long range but it can very well deny Karachi blockade. Pakistan EEZ is roughly 200nm in Arabian sea and that what PN job is to defend. IMO, J10B (a delta wing) is more ideal for naval role then JF17.

One more question for knowledgeable guys over here, can we design or almost reverse engineer a Mirage III/V like fighter in future? Afterall its been 50 years now that we are operating them, over hauling them. With little modifications in design, chinese engine and available avionics, isn't it will be feasible to start our new project after JF17?

There is no point in reverse engineering the Mirage III/V, because superior alternatives are already available. JF-17 was conventional swept wing design, not delta, for a reason. Take a look at the F-16 wing and JF-17 wing. Deltas are good instantaneous turn fighters but you need hell lot of engine thrust to gain that lost energy back. This is where F-16 still rules the sky. The Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale are both Deltas but have considerable engine power to provide ample sustained turn rate. One option for Pakistan in terms of Delta fighters is J-10. But if we want to procure a third type, it better be equal to or better than our BLK52s.

A cheaper and quicker replacement would be Mirage 2000-9 from UAE, if and when they become available. Mirage 2000-9 was the same delta design based on Mirage III/V, but with considerable improvements in engine, agility, electronics, weapons payload hard points etc.

 

[nomi007]

now with triple racket

 

[Viper0011.]

@Donatello @MastanKhan
Having said this, the moral of story is to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Strong PAF is guarantee of peace in South Asia.With the induction of F16 Block 52 and BVR capability, balance is somewhat restored as far as Air warfare is concerned. Indian air force is strong on papers but there are lies some big damn lies. Rafale is not coming before 2018. MKI fleet is not 100% available at any given time. Mig29, Mirage 2000 upgrades are pending and long behind schedules. Obsolete Mig27 and Mig21 are not going to give IAF air superiority alone. MKIs will not be available for each and every role also and on every front.

One factor which everyone forget (may be conveniently), there is some understanding between Pakistan and Saudis. In case of all out war, it will not be a surprise if IAF have to encounter F15 too. Any how kindly let this point be a fantasy as of now.

IMO, J10B (a delta wing) is more ideal for naval role then JF17. One more question for knowledgeable guys over here, can we design or almost reverse engineer a Mirage III/V like fighter in future?

You started out making excellent points but then the above sort of changed that strategic impression IMO. 18 or 45 or 70 -16's is a good force. But you need to start looking around, you are going to be facing 150-200 MKI's, about 40 Mirage 2000's, Mig 21's and then strike platforms like Jags, Mig 27's, etc. ALL BVR ready (add LCA and Rafale later with PakFa).

Do you think 70 -16's are a good cut to defend an entire country? If the JFT B-II were operational, I could see some change, 70 -16's with 100 JFT's Block II so really a defending force of 170 BVR ready jets backed up by F-7's and older Mirages, etc for point defense role.
The PAF needs to double up the number of its -16's sort of immediately and those have to be ready for BVR. Many options exist. Or get a few squadrons from the Chinese (J-11) or even J-10B (BVR ready). What you are missing is the numbers of 4th gen platforms. The 4th gen platform need to really be around 400 jets within the PAF, no matter how you look at it, if you want a decent air force able to deter and counter the above scenario. Plus, add 3-4 squadrons of Stealth jets. So really around 400 4th+ Gen and 60-100 5th Gen. The PAF needs to invest into SAM's, sort of last year and its late. SAM systems (credible ones) in numbers and defense tiers throughout the country is another major need. In the future, you could have a hostile Iran and Afghanistan to watch out for as well.
I know you are financially unstable but the country need to unite and run after whoever is selected to run the country and let them bring about economic changes, many large projects are pending. That could if completed, give you a few billions to go buy these necessities. But your political system (specially oppositions) have no care or respect for the national security of the country. Seems like everyone just wants to kick out whoever is in the seat without giving them the change to fulfill their agenda and let the system cleanup for you.
Btw, Saudi's are forming good economic ties with India. They won't give you -15's. At the max, may be some UAV's, munitions, AWACS / Recon support but that's it.