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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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The RD93 upgrade is on offer for sure, since it would be based on the RD33 MK upgrade, but the key for the JF 17 is, that developing this varient will cost money and the Russians are not going to fund it, they don't even buy more Migs with such an engine anymore and there is only JF17 that would require a single engine varient (Mig 29K, Mig 35, J31 would all use the normal MK version). So would PAF fund upgrades of the RD93 engine, or wait for a suitable Chinese engine till it's reliable and powerful enough, to safe costs?
Also the comparison to the GE 414G btw is a bit more difficult, since the thrust increase for the Gripen is far bigger:

RD33-3/RD93 - 49,4kN dry / RD 33MK - 52,8kN dry => 7%
RD33-3/RD93 - 84,4kN wet / RD 33MK - 90kN wet => 6,7%
RM12 - 55kn dry / GE414G - 62,3kn dry => 13%
RM12 - 80,5kn wet / GE414G - 98kn dry => 21,8%

Even if the RD-93MA would have 93kN wet thrust, that would only be an increase of roughly 10,2% and even less for the dry thrust, so would an upgrade really get JF 17 that much compared to WS13?

Any amount of thrust increase with minimal fuel consumption increase, would be welcome. So whether it's 5% increase or 20%, it helps. However, i believe PAF wants WS-13 as it would mean total independence from Russian suppliers.

Fighter aircraft engines are very different to, say, civilian turbo fans. On a civilian airliner engine, you have the luxury of expanding the fan size. As in the case of GE90 series, you can have engine with fan diameter of 123 in (GE90-94b) with 416KN thrust to the 128 in version (GE90-115b) with 514KN thrust.The extra diameter is accommodated easily as the engines are held by the wings.

In case of JF-17, you cannot expand the engine size without modifying the already smaller fuselage. Which means, the improvements in thrust have to come by other means.

The issue is not of engine thrust. We watched excellent (Actually surprising) maneuverability of JF-17 at the recent Dubai Airshow. What really matters is the weapons package, and the on board electronics capable enough to deal with that.

Modern warfare doesn't care if you have high thrust or not. Okay, it matters a bit, but modern BVRs homing in above Mach 2.0 and turning at above 20Gs, good luck try running from them.
 
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JF-17 production with China’s support

Pak contribution rises to 70pc in avionics

Mian Saifur Rehman

December 3, 2013

The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft, they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.

Talking to The News, Pakistani functionaries who had been working in commanding positions in the manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder disclosed that China’s cooperation has been efficiently reciprocated by Pakistani engineers and technicians whose talent has been acknowledged by Chinese scientists.

Given the high level of this talent, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft can be easily compared even with some highly efficient blocks/models of F-16 especially in the area of avionics. Avionics in fact has enabled the JF-17 planes to acquire considerable airpower edge over the adversary’s aircraft.

And in the area of acceleration forces that enable the aircraft to overcome the gravitational pull, JF-17 is a G-8 plane as compared with F-16 that is a G-9 plane (G denotes acceleration force applied against the Gravitational pull to lift the aircraft). In this manner, JF-17 is no less capable and efficient an aircraft than many advanced planes of the world.

While the credit for accomplishing this excellence goes primarily to the Chinese friends, the role of Pakistani engineers, technicians and officials has been equally remarkable as also acknowledged by the Chinese company Avic (China Aviation Import-Export Corporation).

One of the prime factors that provided fresh impetus to JF-17 co-production was the frequent visits of senior functionaries of PAF to different parts of the world to procure international specifications, including those matching with first-class American aviation standards that are rated as the best standards. It was due to these exclusive efforts of PAF seniors or their frequent visits to countries having soft corner for Pakistan that a G-8 aircraft was produced.

As for the difference between G-8 and G-9, that is only due to metallurgy in use of both China and Pakistan. According to sources, producing a G-8 aircraft was not an easy task too. For this purpose the PAF seniors also sought the technical assistance of experts of a Middle Eastern country that is not much friendly with Pakistan. That diplomatic overture of PAF did work well and the aircraft with many capabilities no less than most of the modern warplanes of the contemporary world came into production within a record, brief period of two to two-and-half years.

Chinese friends are happy over the vigorous input of Pakistani engineers and functionaries that they say has resulted in a big success of international level with export orders expected from many countries. Appreciation has been especially expressed for Pakistanis’ fine diplomacy and specification-collecting skills.

When The News posed a question what hope the people of Pakistan should pin on its pride co-production, JF-17 Thunder, the sources replied: “It is now one of the best and most reliable combat planes of the world as, apart from the G-8 versus G-9 factor, its radar range is 60 aeronautical miles which comes on a par with advanced international standards. Moreover, JF-17 is equipped with a far more advanced BVR system i.e. Beyond Visual Range system that gives it an edge over the enemy aircraft which it can hit from a considerable distance and move far away with full speed in a flash after firing the missile.

JF-17 production with China’s support - thenews.com.pk
 
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JF-17 production with China’s support

Pak contribution rises to 70pc in avionics

Mian Saifur Rehman

December 3, 2013

The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft, they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.

Talking to The News, Pakistani functionaries who had been working in commanding positions in the manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder disclosed that China’s cooperation has been efficiently reciprocated by Pakistani engineers and technicians whose talent has been acknowledged by Chinese scientists.

Given the high level of this talent, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft can be easily compared even with some highly efficient blocks/models of F-16 especially in the area of avionics. Avionics in fact has enabled the JF-17 planes to acquire considerable airpower edge over the adversary’s aircraft.

And in the area of acceleration forces that enable the aircraft to overcome the gravitational pull, JF-17 is a G-8 plane as compared with F-16 that is a G-9 plane (G denotes acceleration force applied against the Gravitational pull to lift the aircraft). In this manner, JF-17 is no less capable and efficient an aircraft than many advanced planes of the world.

While the credit for accomplishing this excellence goes primarily to the Chinese friends, the role of Pakistani engineers, technicians and officials has been equally remarkable as also acknowledged by the Chinese company Avic (China Aviation Import-Export Corporation).

One of the prime factors that provided fresh impetus to JF-17 co-production was the frequent visits of senior functionaries of PAF to different parts of the world to procure international specifications, including those matching with first-class American aviation standards that are rated as the best standards. It was due to these exclusive efforts of PAF seniors or their frequent visits to countries having soft corner for Pakistan that a G-8 aircraft was produced.

As for the difference between G-8 and G-9, that is only due to metallurgy in use of both China and Pakistan. According to sources, producing a G-8 aircraft was not an easy task too. For this purpose the PAF seniors also sought the technical assistance of experts of a Middle Eastern country that is not much friendly with Pakistan. That diplomatic overture of PAF did work well and the aircraft with many capabilities no less than most of the modern warplanes of the contemporary world came into production within a record, brief period of two to two-and-half years.

Chinese friends are happy over the vigorous input of Pakistani engineers and functionaries that they say has resulted in a big success of international level with export orders expected from many countries. Appreciation has been especially expressed for Pakistanis’ fine diplomacy and specification-collecting skills.

When The News posed a question what hope the people of Pakistan should pin on its pride co-production, JF-17 Thunder, the sources replied: “It is now one of the best and most reliable combat planes of the world as, apart from the G-8 versus G-9 factor, its radar range is 60 aeronautical miles which comes on a par with advanced international standards. Moreover, JF-17 is equipped with a far more advanced BVR system i.e. Beyond Visual Range system that gives it an edge over the enemy aircraft which it can hit from a considerable distance and move far away with full speed in a flash after firing the missile.

JF-17 production with China’s support - thenews.com.pk
So that means along with Air Refueling Avionics and also Radars are improved in Block II and any new missiles system added or not @jaibi @Aeronaut and others and also any improvements in engine or not ? and which Middle eastern country do you think they are talking about I am confused not Pakistan Friendly strange
 
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While 26 degrees seems equal to Gripen and F16 i expected the lrex to give a higher AOA.

Concerning the radar, 60nm is 110km. We were given 130km somewhere. So one has to know the reference rcs for the range being given.
 
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How one earth they managed to do that ?
 
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bhai if china can get lavi's technology for j10, then getting some help for jft isnt far fetched .. especially when dollars are involved
 
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bhai if china can get lavi's technology for j10, then getting some help for jft isnt far fetched .. especially when dollars are involved
Sir in Block II I know Air Refuelling is added and Avionics and Radar are improved what else is added or improved I mean engine or new missiles or some other thing
 
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Sir in Block II I know Air Refuelling is added and Avionics and Radar are improved what else is added or improved I mean engine or new missiles or some other thing
sd10b might be integrated in this decade.. just dont keep your hopes too high

the time when you see dams and energy sector proliferating in pakistan, then you can dream of a blk3 with aesa, better engine, more hard points, better metallurgy etc
SD-10B will have a reduced volume weight
SD-10B may be equipped with the Active / Passive Composite Seeker
PL-12G-''PAF has bought SD-10's and will buy its most modern Version PL-12G which has Improved range , design , seeker , warhead and HOBS capability.''

Air-To-Air Missiles | Command of the air. | Page 2
 
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sd10b might be integrated in this decade.. just dont keep your hopes too high

the time when you see dams and energy sector proliferating in pakistan, then you can dream of a blk3 with aesa, better engine, more hard points, better metallurgy etc
But BLOCK II would have BVR if not SD 10 than some other
 
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Concerning the radar, 60nm is 110km. We were given 130km somewhere. So one has to know the reference rcs for the range being given.

1nm=1.852 KM, => 1x60nm= 1.852KMx60nm= 111.12 KM

earlier reported ranges were 130KM for target of 5m^2 RCS, and 75Km for target of 3m^2 RCS, if this article indicate improvement and we consider latest BVR development for JF-17then likely scenario emerges as this improvement is for target of 3m^2 RCS

SD-10 is supposed to have range of about 70+ KM
SD-10B is supposed to have range of about 100+ KM
 
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The RD93 upgrade is on offer for sure, since it would be based on the RD33 MK upgrade, but the key for the JF 17 is, that developing this varient will cost money and the Russians are not going to fund it, they don't even buy more Migs with such an engine anymore and there is only JF17 that would require a single engine varient (Mig 29K, Mig 35, J31 would all use the normal MK version). So would PAF fund upgrades of the RD93 engine, or wait for a suitable Chinese engine till it's reliable and powerful enough, to safe costs?
Also the comparison to the GE 414G btw is a bit more difficult, since the thrust increase for the Gripen is far bigger:

RD33-3/RD93 - 49,4kN dry / RD 33MK - 52,8kN dry => 7%
RD33-3/RD93 - 84,4kN wet / RD 33MK - 90kN wet => 6,7%
RM12 - 55kn dry / GE414G - 62,3kn dry => 13%
RM12 - 80,5kn wet / GE414G - 98kn dry => 21,8%

Even if the RD-93MA would have 93kN wet thrust, that would only be an increase of roughly 10,2% and even less for the dry thrust, so would an upgrade really get JF 17 that much compared to WS13?
Fair comments. My personal feeling is that on account of current satisfaction of PAF with the RD93, and the possible cost overlays in case of developing a higher thrust RD93, PAF will wait for the development of WS13. It is what happens after WS 13 succesfully takes off that will be the most interesting times . I have a fleeting suspiscion that PAF will Pit RD13 against WS13 to see how much leverage it can get out of both the parties. For instance if Russia offers to set up limited manufacturing facilities in Pakistan for 300-500 units of uprated RD93 for a couple of Billion$(which PAF/Pakistan will promptly beg, borrow and steel from somewhere) will PAF still vy for the WS13? I certainly feel the situation will heat up due to competition as soon as the WS13 is available as russia would not want to loose business to the Chinese and the PAF will likely be reluctant to put an untried article in its pride and joy. At this juncture it will be the Chinese counter-offer that would be crucial to the eventual outcome I would also point out the repeated statements of PAF high ups to the fact that the PAF remains very happy with the RD93 in its current form.
So in short a new engine will be decided upon the way the deal is packaged and along the lines of PAFs long term interests. My 2 paisas worth. These views are my own personal ones..
Araz
 
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