JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Last Hope]

When i read your post, the first thought came in my mind, to ban you. As you did not read the post clearly or may be i spoke in Persian.

I said modification was done in the fan module, not fan blades, can't you differentiate ??? fan blades are one part of the fan module, fan module comprises of different items.

And the RD-93s which we got are still smokey, i every 2nd day see atleast 2 JF-17s taking off while on my way to office, and they smoke big time, just like a diesel engine. But when they reach a certain altitude and turn off their after burner that is when they start smoking the most but it vanishes after a few secs and then normal light black smoke is seen and sometimes nothing whatsoever.

So if RD-93 is RD-33-2 or not, ours still smoke but at certain thrust levels, and when seeing JF-17s perform at airshows, you can hardly see them smoking, which clearly means, some modification is done in them for the airshows and thus less smoking. Do search out the video of JF-17s leaving farnbrough air show and see how much smoke they left after their departure.

And again, PAC has done inhouse small level modifications in the engines to make them less-smokey and something in the fan module for some better performance level, no fan blades have been added or new fan blades added to them, just some modification in the existing hardware, to perform better when required.

If you can't accept the fact, then plz don't argue anymore as it would be useless.

The last batch of JF-17 units (3rd Squadron) have some engine modifications to reduce the emission of this smoke. I don't really know what modification or in which module. The Block 2 is going to be the same, with minimal or zero smoke emission.

 

[DARKY]

When i read your post, the first thought came in my mind, to ban you. As you did not read the post clearly or may be i spoke in Persian.

I said modification was done in the fan module, not fan blades, can't you differentiate ??? fan blades are one part of the fan module, fan module comprises of different items.

And the RD-93s which we got are still smokey, i every 2nd day see atleast 2 JF-17s taking off while on my way to office, and they smoke big time, just like a diesel engine. But when they reach a certain altitude and turn off their after burner that is when they start smoking the most but it vanishes after a few secs and then normal light black smoke is seen and sometimes nothing whatsoever.

So if RD-93 is RD-33-2 or not, ours still smoke but at certain thrust levels, and when seeing JF-17s perform at airshows, you can hardly see them smoking, which clearly means, some modification is done in them for the airshows and thus less smoking. Do search out the video of JF-17s leaving farnbrough air show and see how much smoke they left after their departure.

And again, PAC has done inhouse small level modifications in the engines to make them less-smokey and something in the fan module for some better performance level, no fan blades have been added or new fan blades added to them, just some modification in the existing hardware, to perform better when required.

If you can't accept the fact, then plz don't argue anymore as it would be useless.

Mig 29UPG's RD-33 block 3 with BARK-88 FADEC and KSU-941UB removed control system.

[iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lHGPemHQszQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen][/iframe]

It depends on how the pilots are flying, maintenance and age.. of the engine.

Blade or module any modification would change the fan... and engine's performance.
Here's what you get in the name of RD93 which is in fact exported to China.

RD-93, a RD-33 derivative with the low-mounted accessory gearbox, is exported to China to fit FC-1 (JF-17) light single-engine fighters.

Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

Hope it clarifies...

Besides that I doubt weather any of the planes used in either airshows were of PAC's origins.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Mig 29UPG's RD-33 block 3 with BARK-88 FADEC and KSU-941UB removed control system.

[iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lHGPemHQszQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen][/iframe]

It depends on how the pilots are flying, maintenance and age.. of the engine.

Blade or module any modification would change the fan... and engine's performance.
Here's what you get in the name of RD93 which is in fact exported to China.



Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

Hope it clarifies...

Besides that I doubt weather any of the planes used in either airshows were of PAC's origins.

I have no idea what your links had meant with respect to my post.

I only understood the last line and again i repeat, do your research before you comment in a serious discussion.

09-111 was the first assembled JF-17, below is the pic:

http://paffalcons.com/gallery/jf-17/images/jf-17-60-large.jpg

After 09-111 series all the jets are PAC assembled.


and you had 11-130 & 11-134 displaying at Dubai airshow, both of them PAC assembled.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MT5-rI-Zl...ir+Force+%28PAF%29+fighter+duabi+air+show.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Cs2uWfs9P...omb+LT-3+Laser+LT-2LS-500J+aishow+display.jpg

10 JF-17s came from China fully manufactured / assembled and from 09-111 they all are PAC assembled.

heck even farnbrough airshow saw 10-114 & 10-113 in action

Photos: Pakistan JF-17 Thunder Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.c...-8_Farnborough_2010_MilborneOne_CCASA3_lg.jpg

and even Zuhai airshow saw the 10-116 & 10-113 & 09-112 in action in 2010, this time plz search for pics yourself.

So nearly in all these airshows PAC assembled JF-17s have perfomed. Satisfied or not ??

And plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz don't come up with other non sense next time.

 

[fatman17]

TK mitti pao yar. the pettiness of our indian friends is showing. just arguing for the sake of argument.

 

[TAC]

.

Besides that I doubt weather any of the planes used in either airshows were of PAC's origins.

Suggest you look at the serial numbers and go figure where they were built -- No's 128, 130 etc used at Dubai airshow were built at PAC.

 

[Sinnerman108]

When i read your post, the first thought came in my mind, to ban you. As you did not read the post clearly or may be i spoke in Persian.

I said modification was done in the fan module, not fan blades, can't you differentiate ??? fan blades are one part of the fan module, fan module comprises of different items.

And the RD-93s which we got are still smokey, i every 2nd day see atleast 2 JF-17s taking off while on my way to office, and they smoke big time, just like a diesel engine. But when they reach a certain altitude and turn off their after burner that is when they start smoking the most but it vanishes after a few secs and then normal light black smoke is seen and sometimes nothing whatsoever.

So if RD-93 is RD-33-2 or not, ours still smoke but at certain thrust levels, and when seeing JF-17s perform at airshows, you can hardly see them smoking, which clearly means, some modification is done in them for the airshows and thus less smoking. Do search out the video of JF-17s leaving farnbrough air show and see how much smoke they left after their departure.

And again, PAC has done inhouse small level modifications in the engines to make them less-smokey and something in the fan module for some better performance level, no fan blades have been added or new fan blades added to them, just some modification in the existing hardware, to perform better when required.

If you can't accept the fact, then plz don't argue anymore as it would be useless.

Taimi,
All engines smoke ! be it western or Russian.
The reason why we "see" smoke is the presence of unburnt carbon.

I have seen F-15, and F-16s leaving a black smog line.

What this means is that the controller is not able to control the correct air / fuel mixture, OR the pilot is making the engine do some thing for which it was not engineered.

Both of these can be fixed.

 

[Mitro]

Pakistan Airforce JF-17 new camo: got it from sinodefence

 

[Kompromat]

Pakistan Airforce JF-17 new camo: got it from sinodefence

This is photoshoped image - depicts No-27th Sq Zarrars [Pakistan Navy]

 

[A.Rafay]

Pakistan Airforce JF-17 new camo: got it from sinodefence

The real image:

 

[fatman17]

This is photoshoped image - depicts No-27th Sq Zarrars [Pakistan Navy]

PN dosnt have this squadron - Zarrars is a PAF Mirage-Rose tactical sqn.

Pakistan Airforce JF-17 new camo: got it from sinodefence

check the serial no. 12-152!!!?

 

[Najam Khan]

Hope it clarifies...

Besides that I doubt weather any of the planes used in either airshows were of PAC's origins.

Lets end this discussion for good. What you are claiming about RD-93 is based on information available on internet and what we are saying is something not available at large, why? because PAC never release details about each and every project milestone.

Now if you want to live in your dream world where JF17 is a 3rd generation fighter with poor engine, low maintainability and with fewer weapons...then we should leave you dreaming.

For the record,engine modifications were started in 2009, in all the airshow participants the newest an the best aircraft were sent. If you want to compare the "smoke trail" see photos of 23rd march2008 parade (like this one) with any other photo from Izmir,Zhuhai or Dubai airshow.

PS:I double checked second part of your previous post (on RD93 FOD and its shipment to Russia), its was incorrect too. Russia and China has made the deal for these engines, Pakistan is not direct customer of Russia. In any such incident, the engine will be sent back to China not Russia.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hi all,

I have been following this forum and many others for quite a while now. One thing which always bothered me is the misinformation regarding abilities of Pakistan in research and manufacturing. In my view, a very well planned negative propaganda is always wage against Pakistan and unfortunately many in Pakistan buy this propaganda also. Go to any forum, whenever Pakistan come up with some development some Indian come up with same bragging “hmm well, Pakistan can’t do this thing, you have no education, no industrial base. You bought it from China and have done a paint job. hahahah”

Well, I can write pages and pages over what India’s indigenous projects are, but this post of mine is about Pakistan only. I strongly believe that Pakistan current economic state has nothing to do with our lake of potential. All problems are with our corrupt ruling elite. Due to their poor policies Pakistan is unable to exploit its true industrial potential.

Coming back to topic, here in this thread about JF-17, how many times you came across this bashing of Pakistan like Pakistan has no scientific or industrial base, we have no money etc.? Now let’s look at some examples of Pakistan’s knowledge and industrial potential (this is only related to JF-17 thread discussion regarding engine, hence only Mechanical & Metallurgical).

Scientists in the fields of Mechanical & Metallurgical engineering:

Below are the links of some top Pakistani Universities. Go ahead and see the faculty, also check out their educational credentials. Check out from which universities these brilliant people have their Phds.

Note: These are only some public universities. If we include the number of scientists of all other universities + scientists of NESCOM, KRL, AWC and other public & private defense production organization, the number may exceed to thousands.

** Pakistan Institute of Engineering & Applied Science

Department of Mechanical Engineering:
PIEAS

Department of Metallurgy & Materials Engineering:
PIEAS

**NED University of Engineering & Technology

Mechanical Engineering Department:
Welcome To Mechanical Engineering Department NED

**NUST School of Mechanical & Manufacturing Engineering
Welcome to NUST SMME

**Pakistan Navy Engineering College
Pakistan Navy Engineering College

**Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Science & Technology:

Faculty of Material Science Engineering:
Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences - MSE Overview

Faculty of Mechanical Engineering:
Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology - ME Overview

**UET , Taxila

Department of Mechanical Engineering:
University of Engineering and Technology Taxila, Pakistan

H.E.J. Research Institute of Chemistry, Karachi
H.E.J. - International Center for Chemical and Biological Sciences

I can go on & on as still we got great universities like UET Lahore, Quaid-e-Azam University, Karachi University, Peshawar University, LUMS and more. I think it’s enough to satisfy us that yes, Pakistan has got enough knowledgeable pool of scientist and engineers to carry out R & D.

One more link interesting,
Total number of PhDs reaches 8,142 in Pakistan - thenews.com.pk

Off course Pakistan still has a long way to go. Knowledge has no boundaries nor R & D is always done to earn money. There are many more things more important than money. In one or two days I will Inshallah be posting links about Pakistan industrial base. Pakistan Zindabad

 

[DARKY]

Lets end this discussion for good. What you are claiming about RD-93 is based on information available on internet and what we are saying is something not available at large, why? because PAC never release details about each and every project milestone.

Now if you want to live in your dream world where JF17 is a 3rd generation fighter with poor engine, low maintainability and with fewer weapons...then we should leave you dreaming.

For the record,engine modifications were started in 2009, in all the airshow participants the newest an the best aircraft were sent. If you want to compare the "smoke trail" see photos of 23rd march2008 parade (like this one) with any other photo from Izmir,Zhuhai or Dubai airshow.

PS:I double checked second part of your previous post (on RD93 FOD and its shipment to Russia), its was incorrect too. Russia and China has made the deal for these engines, Pakistan is not direct customer of Russia. In any such incident, the engine will be sent back to China not Russia.

I don't understand what do you know at large when the engine is not managed by PAC at all... as it is in fact exported to China from Russia and then to Pakistan... according to you the engine has been studied inside out by PAC who can suggest fan module modification without knowing the metallurgical details of the same.

I never said that JF-17 is a 3rd gen plane... which in fact it is according to the standards of its original manufacturer... or RD-33/93 is a poor engine.

What you talk about is only airshows and advocate me about the internet information... the photo you posted is un burnt fuel... which is seen when the engine is throttled near or upto after burning levels... a common feature with RD-33/93 variants... all the other engines in this world also does that however the level and color of smoke tail depends on their core+inlet temperature, fuel used, and engine controls.. etc..

P.S. And from China the engine goes to Russia... please double check again if China has any repair/overhaul facilities for Kilmov engines.

 

[Najam Khan]

I don't understand what do you know at large when the engine is not managed by PAC at all... as it is in fact exported to China from Russia and then to Pakistan... according to you the engine has been studied inside out by PAC who can suggest fan module modification without knowing the metallurgical details of the same.

That is called first hand information, I have my sources which share them with me...now the interesting part is that, you an Indian is trying to convince me that something you are telling me by reading few websites is more accurate than the person telling me who work with these engines.

Secondly, again you are assuming that no-body in PAC knows anything about these engines, and in case of even any minor problem (or even minor FOD) it would be sent to Russia. That would be a serious strategic nightmare to have such handicapped fighter running in to become backbone of an air force. Why would any air force in the world invest so much time and money in such project without getting random access to its all parts?

I never said that JF-17 is a 3rd gen plane... which in fact it is according to the standards of its original manufacturer... or RD-33/93 is a poor engine.

What you talk about is only airshows and advocate me about the internet information... the photo you posted is un burnt fuel... which is seen when the engine is throttled near or upto after burning levels... a common feature with RD-33/93 variants... all the other engines in this world also does that however the level and color of smoke tail depends on their core+inlet temperature, fuel used, and engine controls.. etc..

Again, you are just posting based on assumptions here. The photo was taken after 20-30 minutes of flight, even if thats "un burnt" fuel, does that makes any sense to have all four aircraft releasing same pattern of smoke trail? Which would only be possible if these all aircraft have same flight schedule in previous sorties, same amount of fuel and yes yes same burning levels...if there is any such a conincidence, then my friend I'm in total agreement with you

I'm sharing one of the high resolution photo from same flight (the smoke stream goes same in the next series of photos as well ) which is enough evidence to conclude that smoke was consistent in all aircraft because of same engine used not because of some specific settings.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Hi all,

I have been following this forum and many others for quite a while now. One thing which always bothered me is the misinformation regarding abilities of Pakistan in research and manufacturing. In my view, a very well planned negative propaganda is always wage against Pakistan and unfortunately many in Pakistan buy this propaganda also. Go to any forum, whenever Pakistan come up with some development some Indian come up with same bragging “hmm well, Pakistan can’t do this thing, you have no education, no industrial base. You bought it from China and have done a paint job. hahahah”

Well, I can write pages and pages over what India’s indigenous projects are, but this post of mine is about Pakistan only. I strongly believe that Pakistan current economic state has nothing to do with our lake of potential. All problems are with our corrupt ruling elite. Due to their poor policies Pakistan is unable to exploit its true industrial potential.

Coming back to topic, here in this thread about JF-17, how many times you came across this bashing of Pakistan like Pakistan has no scientific or industrial base, we have no money etc.? Now let’s look at some examples of Pakistan’s knowledge and industrial potential (this is only related to JF-17 thread discussion regarding engine, hence only Mechanical & Metallurgical).

Scientists in the fields of Mechanical & Metallurgical engineering:

Below are the links of some top Pakistani Universities. Go ahead and see the faculty, also check out their educational credentials. Check out from which universities these brilliant people have their Phds.

Note: These are only some public universities. If we include the number of scientists of all other universities + scientists of NESCOM, KRL, AWC and other public & private defense production organization, the number may exceed to thousands.

** Pakistan Institute of Engineering & Applied Science

Department of Mechanical Engineering:
PIEAS

Department of Metallurgy & Materials Engineering:
PIEAS

**NED University of Engineering & Technology

Mechanical Engineering Department:
Welcome To Mechanical Engineering Department NED

**NUST School of Mechanical & Manufacturing Engineering
Welcome to NUST SMME

**Pakistan Navy Engineering College
Pakistan Navy Engineering College

**Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Science & Technology:

Faculty of Material Science Engineering:
Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences - MSE Overview

Faculty of Mechanical Engineering:
Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology - ME Overview

**UET , Taxila

Department of Mechanical Engineering:
University of Engineering and Technology Taxila, Pakistan

H.E.J. Research Institute of Chemistry, Karachi
H.E.J. - International Center for Chemical and Biological Sciences

I can go on & on as still we got great universities like UET Lahore, Quaid-e-Azam University, Karachi University, Peshawar University, LUMS and more. I think it’s enough to satisfy us that yes, Pakistan has got enough knowledgeable pool of scientist and engineers to carry out R & D.

One more link interesting,
Total number of PhDs reaches 8,142 in Pakistan - thenews.com.pk

Off course Pakistan still has a long way to go. Knowledge has no boundaries nor R & D is always done to earn money. There are many more things more important than money. In one or two days I will Inshallah be posting links about Pakistan industrial base. Pakistan Zindabad

Bro i will suggest u to make separate thread for it, i agree with u totally that people from india r very much brainwashed about Pakistan, so for that make a thread where the visit more ie ''members corner''. thanks!