JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[hotaki]

Not much on it. Its shaping up at Kamra along with 16 MR Sqn. Apparently PAF has increased the squadron strength which is causing delay. The good thing is that the financial issues have been sorted out at PAC

Pakher khan baba, when you say that squadron strength has been increased by paf may i ask to what number?.

Block 1 was going to be 50 pieces so that would make 3 squadrons of 16 and 2 extra planes, one has crashed so that leaves 1 extra, so is block 1 going to be manufactured more the 50 pieces to accommodate extra strength of the squadrons?.

 

[aks18]

Orangzib..

re your post



No offence taken. From this indian

Now my turn.

Please dont take offence

Pakistan GDP of $200 billion growing for 5 years IS totaly differenmt to a INDIAN GDP $2 trillion growin at the same pace.

simple maths would argue IT WILL NOT be enough to spend lavishly on big ticket items as you seem to suggest.

ULTIMATELY the base economy is FAR TOO SMALL

i dont know why you indians start comparing your economy with pakistan it means we should also start comparing our economy with many developing countries around world like oil rich country Qatar , kuwait lol :p or vietnam should we start saying them our economy size is too big we are this and that you got little economy you cant buy expensive toys blah blah

 

[Najam Khan]

Pakher khan baba, when you say that squadron strength has been increased by paf may i ask to what number?.

Block 1 was going to be 50 pieces so that would make 3 squadrons of 16 and 2 extra planes, one has crashed so that leaves 1 extra, so is block 1 going to be manufactured more the 50 pieces to accommodate extra strength of the squadrons?.

My friend what your talking about is the common forum mathematics. I don't want to comment on the number, all i can say is things aren't the same now. The greater sqn strength means more training and more airdef missions.

 

[zeee]

Interesting way to rank modern fighters

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf

 

[nomi007]

 

[DARKY]

It you are refereing to this line



It was directed at Indian members here like yourself and not on IAF.

What am I going to do with a freaking RD-33.. .. please don't direct such heavy posts on me.
Now irrelevant to what IAF has and what PAF gets... the thing is the same..(offcourse there are some difference but overall its the same engine on quality basis).. with a TBO of 400hours on RD-33 one should expect even worse performance by RD-93 since its a single engine plane.

Besides all this the supply issue and maintenance part is also a big problem until there's a Kimov factory in Pakistan or China... or similar to the one in India... even on that the parts are to be supplied from Russia... so they'll have to choose between supplying RD-93 parts to Pakistan or RD-33/33K, Al-31FN, R11 F300, R-29B-300, Item 117(possibly)... and other parts for Su series/Mig series planes, T-90 tanks...etc..etc.. and what not.
I leave you people to decide on that... more than half of its defense exports+strategic partner and partner on may other weapon system projects or RD-93 parts(for 100-200engines).

 

[SQ8]

What am I going to do with a freaking RD-33.. .. please don't direct such heavy posts on me.
Now irrelevant to what IAF has and what PAF gets... the thing is the same..(offcourse there are some difference but overall its the same engine on quality basis).. with a TBO of 400hours on RD-33 one should expect even worse performance by RD-93 since its a single engine plane.

Besides all this the supply issue and maintenance part is also a big problem until there's a Kimov factory in Pakistan or China... or similar to the one in India... even on that the parts are to be supplied from Russia... so they'll have to choose between supplying RD-93 parts to Pakistan or RD-33/33K, Al-31FN, R11 F300, R-29B-300, Item 117(possibly)... and other parts for Su series/Mig series planes, T-90 tanks...etc..etc.. and what not.
I leave you people to decide on that... more than half of its defense exports+strategic partner and partner on may other weapon system projects or RD-93 parts(for 100-200engines).

OR the spare parts of some 300 Al-31's.. 60 D-30's, Guns, Missiles.. Electronics.. to China.

Its never black and white.. and both India and China are valuable to Russian defence sales.
Hence.. the Rd-93 embargo never worked in the first place.
They were being sold to China as well..
Moreover.. Russia is not one to embargo easily..

 

[araz]

i dont know why you indians start comparing your economy with pakistan it means we should also start comparing our economy with many developing countries around world like oil rich country Qatar , kuwait lol :p or vietnam should we start saying them our economy size is too big we are this and that you got little economy you cant buy expensive toys blah blah

A good post from whatever source needs to be appreciated. You have shown bias by starting off as "you Indians"!! THIS IN ITSELF IS AN ACCEPTANCE OF DEFEAT!! What storm force is saying is right. We have a small and very badly managed economy, where resources are scanty and there is always pressure form the public sectorfor spending on dire needs rather than defence. To accept this gracefully ahould have been the first step of your response.
To my friend Storm force___ Sir the problem is indirectly related to your massive increase in spending power and a massive rise in your defence spendings. The options for us are either to accept that you are a dominant power and bow our heads down or to maintain a credible defence against your spendings. To balance this against our public sector needs is where the problems begin to arise. You may have noticed a lot of threads on procurement of this and that by the forces of Pakistan and then nothing happens. It does not mean that the need has dissipated , but that austerity has had the better of our defence needs.
Even if we could match your spending penny by penny, it would still be idiotic for us to match you arm for arm and soldier for soldier. We will probably still maintain a smaller force and smaller number of arms. However, the only difference would be the quality and more so the maturity of the platforms that we procure.
So sir, at the end of the day while we refuse to throw down the towel, being aware of our own shrinking pockets, we have compromised maturity for austerity and perhaps quality , and relied on our own two hands to build whatever we can ourselves with help from wherever we can get it.
This briefly is the response of a Pragmatic but patriotic Pakistani to you.
To be very honest, there is no need for this sabre rattling and provided there are enough measures to build confidence amongst the 3 big regional nations can embark on an economic cooperationrather than confrontation , on a principle of give and take, we can establish an economic power house that will eclipse the west into oblivion. Will we be allowed to do so!! Probably not. At the end of the day it boils down to our determination in doing so and the bigger nations looking after the interests of the smaller ones.
Araz

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

A good post from whatever source needs to be appreciated. You have shown bias by starting off as "you Indians"!! THIS IN ITSELF IS AN ACCEPTANCE OF DEFEAT!! What storm force is saying is right. We have a small and very badly managed economy, where resources are scanty and there is always pressure form the public sectorfor spending on dire needs rather than defence. To accept this gracefully ahould have been the first step of your response.
To my friend Storm force___ Sir the problem is indirectly related to your massive increase in spending power and a massive rise in your defence spendings. The options for us are either to accept that you are a dominant power and bow our heads down or to maintain a credible defence against your spendings. To balance this against our public sector needs is where the problems begin to arise. You may have noticed a lot of threads on procurement of this and that by the forces of Pakistan and then nothing happens. It does not mean that the need has dissipated , but that austerity has had the better of our defence needs.
Even if we could match your spending penny by penny, it would still be idiotic for us to match you arm for arm and soldier for soldier. We will probably still maintain a smaller force and smaller number of arms. However, the only difference would be the quality and more so the maturity of the platforms that we procure.
So sir, at the end of the day while we refuse to throw down the towel, being aware of our own shrinking pockets, we have compromised maturity for austerity and perhaps quality , and relied on our own two hands to build whatever we can ourselves with help from wherever we can get it.
This briefly is the response of a Pragmatic but patriotic Pakistani to you.
To be very honest, there is no need for this sabre rattling and provided there are enough measures to build confidence amongst the 3 big regional nations can embark on an economic cooperationrather than confrontation , on a principle of give and take, we can establish an economic power house that will eclipse the west into oblivion. Will we be allowed to do so!! Probably not. At the end of the day it boils down to our determination in doing so and the bigger nations looking after the interests of the smaller ones.
Araz

Very well written facts dear Bro Araz, but where have You seen Quality in Pakistan Armed forces, specially Airforce.
Except a bunch of new F-16, JF-17s, ZDK-03 and SPECIAL VIP TRANSPORT every thing came here was used.
I don't wana make a list of those equipment here because you and other concerned persons would know it very well.
We are lacking Quality as well, I may not agree with you on this. Under Such GOVT which Emphasise to cut off Military budget and to use it for the welfare of poor, we would have to bow down against raising Indian power.

Enough Off Topics, i guess.


Topic: AFM last issue of 2012 mentioned and showed picture of JF-17 SP-29 parked under shade, currently undergoing Flight Trials... Whats this ? Was Alan Sb. drinking lately before preparing PAF article. 11-128/30/34 were displayed/flying in Dubai Last year and Alan Sb saying that SP-29 is on Flight Trials. ??
Should I assume the whole article a CRAP, as it also said that All PAF C-130's are painted grey while one of my friend recently captured photo of two C-130 in Jungle cameo one of them was fitted with FLIR.
Also Never heard of, INFRA RED GLOOMING Markings that are painted on Mirage-5 ????

 

[PakShaheen79]

What am I going to do with a freaking RD-33.. .. please don't direct such heavy posts on me.
Now irrelevant to what IAF has and what PAF gets... the thing is the same..(offcourse there are some difference but overall its the same engine on quality basis).. with a TBO of 400hours on RD-33 one should expect even worse performance by RD-93 since its a single engine plane.

Besides all this the supply issue and maintenance part is also a big problem until there's a Kimov factory in Pakistan or China... or similar to the one in India... even on that the parts are to be supplied from Russia... so they'll have to choose between supplying RD-93 parts to Pakistan or RD-33/33K, Al-31FN, R11 F300, R-29B-300, Item 117(possibly)... and other parts for Su series/Mig series planes, T-90 tanks...etc..etc.. and what not.
I leave you people to decide on that... more than half of its defense exports+strategic partner and partner on may other weapon system projects or RD-93 parts(for 100-200engines).

What kind of argument is this?

It is purely a business deal for Russia .... going by your logic, US must never give you P-8I and C-17s like stuff. Agreed that India is bigger market but this must not stop Russians from exploring the possibilities other than India which Russia is losing fast and in next five years, most of the India weaponry will be west or US oriented ... indeed a right decision but again Russians are also hereto do business and Russians are also aware of the fact where Indians are heading for their future procurement. Just check the number of people, who are supporting JSF despite knowing Indian involvement in FGFA program with Russia.

Rest assure, WS-13 is the engine for JFT ... but that is some time away and PAF will have to stick to RD-93 for which we have Chinese assurance till WS-13 becomes fully operational. Rest, as i said earlier, If engine's performance is poor then Indian members must not lose sleep over it.

 

[aks18]

A good post from whatever source needs to be appreciated. You have shown bias by starting off as "you Indians"!! THIS IN ITSELF IS AN ACCEPTANCE OF DEFEAT!! What storm force is saying is right. We have a small and very badly managed economy, where resources are scanty and there is always pressure form the public sectorfor spending on dire needs rather than defence. To accept this gracefully ahould have been the first step of your response.
To my friend Storm force___ Sir the problem is indirectly related to your massive increase in spending power and a massive rise in your defence spendings. The options for us are either to accept that you are a dominant power and bow our heads down or to maintain a credible defence against your spendings. To balance this against our public sector needs is where the problems begin to arise. You may have noticed a lot of threads on procurement of this and that by the forces of Pakistan and then nothing happens. It does not mean that the need has dissipated , but that austerity has had the better of our defence needs.
Even if we could match your spending penny by penny, it would still be idiotic for us to match you arm for arm and soldier for soldier. We will probably still maintain a smaller force and smaller number of arms. However, the only difference would be the quality and more so the maturity of the platforms that we procure.
So sir, at the end of the day while we refuse to throw down the towel, being aware of our own shrinking pockets, we have compromised maturity for austerity and perhaps quality , and relied on our own two hands to build whatever we can ourselves with help from wherever we can get it.
This briefly is the response of a Pragmatic but patriotic Pakistani to you.
To be very honest, there is no need for this sabre rattling and provided there are enough measures to build confidence amongst the 3 big regional nations can embark on an economic cooperationrather than confrontation , on a principle of give and take, we can establish an economic power house that will eclipse the west into oblivion. Will we be allowed to do so!! Probably not. At the end of the day it boils down to our determination in doing so and the bigger nations looking after the interests of the smaller ones.
Araz

i dont know what acceptance of defeat you talking about i was reffering him about his attitude that they talk about their economy and start comparing with us its totally bull Sh*t to compare a 200 million people economy with 1.2 billion people economy i know what conditions are going on in pakistan but such conditions will not remain bad we will have a prosper future INSHA ALLAH

 

[Storm Force]

Some good points EVERYONE

Thunder is GREAT stepping stone but our newbie Oranzib is mixing up LICENSE BUILD experience with a INDENGIOUS fighter programme of your own.

Even israel failed with a indengious LAVI fighter programme BUT had massive success with upgrading mirages to kfir standards

designing & Building a BRAND NEW fighter from scratch AND buuilding up the infrastructure to do this is very costly.

PAF will upgrade redefine and indeginese the JF17 over the coming years to suit them (plug and play) AND FOR now this is a welcome boost. AND A big leap from simply importing F7s from china

 

[IPL5]

OR the spare parts of some 300 Al-31's.. 60 D-30's, Guns, Missiles.. Electronics.. to China.

Its never black and white.. and both India and China are valuable to Russian defence sales.
Hence.. the Rd-93 embargo never worked in the first place.
They were being sold to China as well..
Moreover.. Russia is not one to embargo easily..

Pakistan is no China

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan is no China

But Pakistan is getting from China.. hence.. parts to Pakistan==Parts to China != extreme danger of sanctions.

 

[IPL5]

But Pakistan is getting from China.. hence.. parts to Pakistan==Parts to China != extreme danger of sanctions.

Don't quote it out of context, In my previous post I mentioned it during war time.