JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[TaimiKhan]

The ROSE upgraded Mirages do not have chinese MAWS installed. The French MAW and RWR were a part of the ROSE upgrade.

Well i believe there is something so much thick up there that I nor anyone else is able to penetrate it and make you understand what is being talked about. So this is my last post in reply to your rant and troll.

I said Mirage has Chinese RWR integrated with it, and you without even thinking or doing some research came up with your own troll post that it isn't. Well here is my proof, hope it satisfies you.

The top left dial says KJ8602 at the top, which is a Chinese RWR as well as a Chaff and Flare dispenser system. Plz do read it here:

KJ8602A Airborne Radar Warning Receiver - SinoDefence.com

And wanna compare it to the one shown at exhibitions to fully satisfy so that you don't have to say it is something else, here is the ROSE upgraded cockpit shown at one of the IDEAS.

And below is the e-mail which i did to gambit who is an aviation expert as he has served the US airforce and i put up the query to him about the compatibility thing, here is what he had to say:

My Query:

Gambit Sir,

In simplified english and way, can you answer is it possible or not the below scenario.

Suppose there is an aircraft, it has MIL STD 1553b data bus and STD 1760 for weapons management. It has a Chinese radar, which is also based on the same MIL STD specifications. Then we have US or any western weapon system,BVR missile or JDAMS or Laser guided weapons.

The source codes for both Chinese radar and western weapon systems is available, can they be integrated ?? Will they work ??

Take example of PAF JF-17, it is above told MIL STD architecture, radar also based on such thing, can AMRAAM if hypothetically source codes are given, they can be mated together ??

Is it possible ??


------------------------------------------

What Gambit had to reply:

I followed that discussion. The simple answer is that if the source code for both components are available, then 'Yes'.

But you need to understand the differences between the hardware linkage standard and the data transmission protocol standard. The 1760 standard is hardware. It determine connector sizes, the number of pins, their sizes and even if they are to be gold plated or not. Once you set the hardware standard, you need to determine how will the diverse components communicate over these few hardware connections -- the pins. And that standard is 1553 or electrical protocols or 'software' if you will.

Bottom line is if you have the source codes you can create any hardware standard you want and call it any name you want. 1760 was created to clear up any confusions between manufacturers on how to integrate their products into EXISTING aircrafts. It was a mess prior to 1760.


---------------------------------------------------

I think it is more then enough to rest my case and let it be known who is talking troll, un-researched and with the clearing of Mirage RWR thing, i believe we can see who is more authentic and knows his stuff.

Thanks and don't bother to reply back as I am done with you, its wastage of time.

 

[farhan_9909]

WOW is it jf-17 armed with missiles?

looking very beautifull and sexy

 

[pshamim]

My Boy,

It is just like you saying to me " Mastan Khan---I can run faster than you---I can climb a higher mountain---I can do so many MANLY things better than you---YES YOU CAN---YOU AT 20 YEARS OF AGE---ME AT 53---I personally will be embarrassed with this comparison---but if you feel dignified and proud about it, that is your prerogative---


AND WHERE IS OUR GREAT RETIRED WARRIOR PSHAMIM. A prudent airforce---somebody just shoot me and end my misery---once for all.

Mastan Khan Saheb,

I carry a baggage which is one decade heavier than yours. Result is inferior health, declining vision and failing memory compared to some younger hotblooded, compassionate and emotion filled patriots.

I do get under the weather more often than most I will post once I get better and receive more info from my friends in business. Hope you will forgive me for not been able to respond immediately.

 

[gambit]

This is 1760...

MIL-STD-1760 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Signal Description: There are five main groups of MIL-STD-1760 signals: 1) power connections; 2) MIL-STD-1553 communications interface; 3) high and low bandwidth signals; 4) discrete signals; and 5) fiber optics. Note that the standard describes three groups: A) the signal lines (consisting of the high & low bandwidth, MIL-STD-1553 communications, and fiber optic signals); B) the discrete lines (consisting of the MIL-STD-1553 discretes and other discrete signals); and C) the power lines (which are the same as those described here).

1760 and 1553 works together. If any fighter from any country complies with both, then in theory, if the source code for the AMRAAM is available, then the AMRAAM will be work with a Chinese or Russian radar.

 

[Evil Flare]

Squadron 26.

Awesome Picture

 

[v9s]

Well i believe there is something so much thick up there that I nor anyone else is able to penetrate it and make you understand what is being talked about. So this is my last post in reply to your rant and troll.

I said Mirage has Chinese RWR integrated with it, and you without even thinking or doing some research came up with your own troll post that it isn't. Well here is my proof, hope it satisfies you.

The top left dial says KJ8602 at the top, which is a Chinese RWR as well as a Chaff and Flare dispenser system. Plz do read it here:

KJ8602A Airborne Radar Warning Receiver - SinoDefence.com

And wanna compare it to the one shown at exhibitions to fully satisfy so that you don't have to say it is something else, here is the ROSE upgraded cockpit shown at one of the IDEAS.

And below is the e-mail which i did to gambit who is an aviation expert as he has served the US airforce and i put up the query to him about the compatibility thing, here is what he had to say:

My Query:

Gambit Sir,

In simplified english and way, can you answer is it possible or not the below scenario.

Suppose there is an aircraft, it has MIL STD 1553b data bus and STD 1760 for weapons management. It has a Chinese radar, which is also based on the same MIL STD specifications. Then we have US or any western weapon system,BVR missile or JDAMS or Laser guided weapons.

The source codes for both Chinese radar and western weapon systems is available, can they be integrated ?? Will they work ??

Take example of PAF JF-17, it is above told MIL STD architecture, radar also based on such thing, can AMRAAM if hypothetically source codes are given, they can be mated together ??

Is it possible ??


------------------------------------------

What Gambit had to reply:

I followed that discussion. The simple answer is that if the source code for both components are available, then 'Yes'.

But you need to understand the differences between the hardware linkage standard and the data transmission protocol standard. The 1760 standard is hardware. It determine connector sizes, the number of pins, their sizes and even if they are to be gold plated or not. Once you set the hardware standard, you need to determine how will the diverse components communicate over these few hardware connections -- the pins. And that standard is 1553 or electrical protocols or 'software' if you will.

Bottom line is if you have the source codes you can create any hardware standard you want and call it any name you want. 1760 was created to clear up any confusions between manufacturers on how to integrate their products into EXISTING aircrafts. It was a mess prior to 1760.


---------------------------------------------------

I think it is more then enough to rest my case and let it be known who is talking troll, un-researched and with the clearing of Mirage RWR thing, i believe we can see who is more authentic and knows his stuff.

Thanks and don't bother to reply back as I am done with you, its wastage of time.

aaaand BOOM!!!!! *headshot*

Great post sir!

 

[Cent4]

self delete

 

[Cent4]

Awesome Picture

Squadron 26.

original pic

 

[gambit]

Am going to clarify a bit more about those two MUX lines...


If we are to hardwire every single FLCS signal, from stick to transducer, from gyros to computer, from computer to hydraulics. The F-16 would be with a greater electrical mess than the complexity it already is.

Enter multiplexing...Or MUX for short...

What is a Composite Signal? | Seth on Simulink

The basic concept for the Mux Block is the idea of bundling signals together. This bundle of signals can be routed through the model, and then operated upon as a collective unit. (Mux actually stands for multiplex.) Along with the Mux Block is the Demux Block, which breaks signals apart into their components to be operated on individually.

At the high level...What we could do is bundle channel A of stick, position transducer, gyro, accelerometer and finally hydraulics of the pitch axis into one set of signals with each at a different frequency. The bus controller would understand which is supposed to go where and route the signals accordingly. There would be a 'demux' process at each end. When we have hardwires, for all practical purposes, we have %100 data integrity, which is what we want, but the aircraft would end up with a level of hardware complexity -- wiring -- that it could make the aircraft unmaintainable. The burden of that %100 data integrity is upon the wires for pitch, roll and yaw and that goes for all components in each axis.

Then someone came up with the idea of mux and demux processes that would reduce the wiring complexity down to two and that would be those two MUX lines inside the connector. The stick to transducer signal would be at one freq, from transducer to FLCS computer would be on another freq, from gyro to FLCS computer would be on another freq, from accelerometer to FLCS computer would be on another freq, from FLCS computer to hydraulics would be on another freq. All for channel A for pitch axis alone. Repeat for channel B, C and D. Then for roll, repeat the entire layout on another connector. Same for yaw. In effect, we have created virtual wires with multiplexing. The burden for data integrity is now shifted to the bus controller and the mux/demux processes. If we had remain with hardwires, there would no need for channels. But with virtual wiring, we ended up with quadruple redundancy and the voting process to select which signal is the best.

MIL-STD-1553 and 1760 were created to force diverse manufacturers in that if they want to make money they had better conform to these standards. As long as the signals obey the rules as to their bits, bit rates, parity, sync and a whole lot of other criteria, their products can be competitive and will work with existing platforms, be it for FLCS or weapons delivery or even just to open up the rear cargo door. China or Russia can create their own systems, but if they chose to conform to the US created standards, the only unknown factors are the signals and whatever freqs they resides. If those signals are super-duper secret, then the missile or the radar will not work.

This is why adapting foreign technology into one's framework is beyond the reach of most countries. For US, each service has a 'foreign technology exploitation' division who focus on the technology applicable to said service, meaning the USAF does not care about Russian or Chinese artillery.

AR 381-26 Army Foreign Material Exploitation Program

ARCHIVE - AR 381-26 Army Foreign Material Exploitation Program

This revision-

- Provides centralized management of the Army Foreign Material
Exploitation Program.

- Incorporates changes that have occurred with the establishment of
the U.S. Army Intelligence Agency.

- Implements Defense Intelligence Agency Manual (DIAM) 75-1
requirements for the Army.

- Identifies responsibilities of commands in exploitation of
foreign material (para 1-5)

- Specifies the process used in validating requirements for
foreign material acquisition (paras 2-2 and 2-3).

- Specifies the process used in exploitation of foreign material
(paras 2-6 through 2-9).

But if the exploitation is successful, or that an ally chose to reveal what was secret, then adaptation is possible. As long as 1553 and 1760 are already in compliance.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan Saheb,

I carry a baggage which is one decade heavier than yours. Result is inferior health, declining vision and failing memory compared to some younger hotblooded, compassionate and emotion filled patriots.

I do get under the weather more often than most I will post once I get better and receive more info from my friends in business. Hope you will forgive me for not been able to respond immediately.

Pshamim,

God bless you my man and give you good health. Sometimes we hurt those whom we love the most. I apologize for my comments---they just came out in the heat of the moment---.

My reaction was just that a reaction of pain and hurt----our expectations were way high----we were promised the moon and we got fluff---that is all.

There is no doubt that JF 17 is a great plane of its category---but what we got was not what we needed.

You take care now---.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Pshamim,

God bless you my man and give you good health. Sometimes we hurt those whom we love the most. I apologize for my comments---they just came out in the heat of the moment---.

My reaction was just that a reaction of pain and hurt----our expectations were way high----we were promised the moon and we got fluff---that is all.

There is no doubt that JF 17 is a great plane of its category---but what we got was not what we needed.

You take care now---.

if you are adjusting it in the league of MKI's
then definitely it will be little injustice with the bird

 

[ironman]

Well i believe there is something so much thick up there that I nor anyone else is able to penetrate it and make you understand what is being talked about. So this is my last post in reply to your rant and troll.

I said Mirage has Chinese RWR integrated with it, and you without even thinking or doing some research came up with your own troll post that it isn't. Well here is my proof, hope it satisfies you.

The top left dial says KJ8602 at the top, which is a Chinese RWR as well as a Chaff and Flare dispenser system. Plz do read it here:

KJ8602A Airborne Radar Warning Receiver - SinoDefence.com

And wanna compare it to the one shown at exhibitions to fully satisfy so that you don't have to say it is something else, here is the ROSE upgraded cockpit shown at one of the IDEAS.

What if its not a Mirage cockpit ?..Mirage III rose upgrade consists of a different RWR, integrated by Sagem.

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/mirageupgrade.html

The avionics upgrade project named the 'Retrofit of Strike Element' (ROSE was conceived in 1992 and commenced effectually from April 1995. The avionics package included Inertial Navigation System, Heads Up Display, Airborne Video Tape Recording System, and self-protection systems like RWR, Chaff and Flares.

As the SAGEM proposal became more and more attractive and feasible, the PAF negotiated a further reduction in costs so that they actually fell into its feasibility regime. Through numerous discussions, SAGEM came up with a revised proposal of $124 million in November 1995. According to this proposal, the package was to consist of thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II standards (ROSE-II modification is the same as ROSE-I, except the Griffo-M radar is replaced by FLIR). The engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours. The package would also include the required ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Besides, the kits for RWR, CFD and GPS would be installed in all aircraft.

And here is the genuine pictures..

PS. I believe the pic you have posted is of F-7.

 

[Dazzler]

@Iron man

The pics you posted are not PAF mirages but Chilean ELKAN upgrade for their mirage 3 and 5. Yes, the package is very similar and so is the company that developed it, SAGEM but what Taimi Khan stated is true as our ROSE-1 and 2 birds are upgraded with Chinese kj-8602a series RWR units as they performed better than the French ones during trials and we also manufacture them in house. ROSE 3 is a different story however, as it possess even more advanced version with more up to date glass cockpit and other stuff.

 

[Dazzler]

Thunder's Advanced IFF Transponder

 

[Dazzler]

A little % of metallic structure replaced by composites...