JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Chak Bamu]

Fair enough! But has he ever gave the reasons why PLAAF is against the export of J-10CE. That's what actually matters in the end.

PLAAF discouraging J-10CE export is not good, but it does allow leverage for PAF to push AVIC for more improvements in JF-17.

@ziaulislam I do not think that Block III would be limited to radar & avionics upgrade only. I am quite sure of engine improvement leading to further improvements. PAF has known about induction of Rafale into IAF and in my view that has been one of the major reasons for the delay in unveiling of JF-17 Block III. I am quite sure that it has enhancements that allow it to engage Rafale.

 

[denel]

PLAAF discouraging J-10CE export is not good, but it does allow leverage for PAF to push AVIC for more improvements in JF-17.

@ziaulislam I do not think that Block III would be limited to radar & avionics upgrade only. I am quite sure of engine improvement leading to further improvements. PAF has known about induction of Rafale into IAF and in my view that has been one of the major reasons for the delay in unveiling of JF-17 Block III. I am quite sure that it has enhancements that allow it to engage Rafale.

It is a matter of strategic insight; if Chinese feel there is a need to level set a threat, then J-10CE will be made available; right now I would not bet on J10 simply because of MTBF of their engines which has been a constant problem for them. AVIC has been under pressure to deliver no matter what; what we see is a fascade but maintenance reality will be different which is why they dont want it to go to their most mature client.

 

[LKJ86]

AVIC has been under pressure to deliver no matter what; what we see is a fascade but maintenance reality will be different which is why they dont want it to go to their most mature client.

You have to update your informations. AVIC doesn't produce engines for J-10 any more.

 

[denel]

You have to update your informations. AVIC doesn't produce engines for J-10 any more.

Correct - i am not saying that - i am saying in general engines remain a challenge.

 

[PakEye]

PAF has known about induction of Rafale into IAF and in my view that has been one of the major reasons for the delay in unveiling of JF-17 Block III. I am quite sure that it has enhancements that allow it to engage Rafale.

your assessment have the wight in the light of PAF pilots training on Qatr's Air Force Rafale's I think we will see the perfect match of Rafale in the upcoming JFT Block-III.

 

[LKJ86]

Correct - i am not saying that - i am saying in general engines remain a challenge.

AVIC doesn't provide any engines already. And J-10C is using AL-31F engine, so what is the problem of "MTBF of their engines"?

 

[ziaulislam]

PLAAF discouraging J-10CE export is not good, but it does allow leverage for PAF to push AVIC for more improvements in JF-17.

@ziaulislam I do not think that Block III would be limited to radar & avionics upgrade only. I am quite sure of engine improvement leading to further improvements. PAF has known about induction of Rafale into IAF and in my view that has been one of the major reasons for the delay in unveiling of JF-17 Block III. I am quite sure that it has enhancements that allow it to engage Rafale.

Thats the logicsl route but we have no proof yet
The delay of 6+ years seems illogical for any other reason...
Remember the first prototype of jf17 took just 3 years to build and was in serial production in 5 more years
Even the B version didnt took that long..
Or the planned mk2 lca is planned for 2023-25
which was envisioned last year.

PAF knew f16s aren't coming, understood that 126 rafales are coming since 2007(when the RFI was called), It should have at that time decided on either j10s,f16s or an upgraded jf17 beyound 130-150numbers..logically after OBL saga u shouldn't expect f16(if they come its a bonus)...

Jf17 block 3 is fall back plane..its hard to believe that the third tier fall back plan wasnt worked out properly ...
Super 7 was changed in 1990s to jf17 seeing the su30 threat..

 

[denel]

Thats the logicsl route but we have no proof yet
The delay of 6+ years seems illogical for any other reason...
Remember the first prototype of jf17 took just 3 years to build and was in serial production in 5 more years
Even the B version didnt took that long..
Or the planned mk2 lca is planned for 2023-25
which was envisioned last year.

PAF knew f16s aren't coming, understood that 126 rafales are coming since 2007(when the RFI was called), It should have at that time decided on either j10s,f16s or an upgraded jf17 beyound 130-150numbers..logically after OBL saga u shouldn't expect f16(if they come its a bonus)...

Jf17 block 3 is fall back plane..its hard to believe that the third tier fall back plan wasnt worked out properly ...
Super 7 was changed in 1990s to jf17 seeing the su30 threat..

if mastankhan was here you know what he would say

The threat is now very real and with loonie Modi swinging, all bets are off.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Thats the logicsl route but we have no proof yet
The delay of 6+ years seems illogical for any other reason...
Remember the first prototype of jf17 took just 3 years to build and was in serial production in 5 more years
Even the B version didnt took that long..
Or the planned mk2 lca is planned for 2023-25
which was envisioned last year.

PAF knew f16s aren't coming, understood that 126 rafales are coming since 2007(when the RFI was called), It should have at that time decided on either j10s,f16s or an upgraded jf17 beyound 130-150numbers..logically after OBL saga u shouldn't expect f16(if they come its a bonus)...

Jf17 block 3 is fall back plane..its hard to believe that the third tier fall back plan wasnt worked out properly ...
Super 7 was changed in 1990s to jf17 seeing the su30 threat..

Super 7 was discarded after Grumman pulled out in 1989. FTC-2000 (minus DSI) is what Super 7 might have looked like. SU-30 MKI came in much much later. The response to SU-30 MKI was redesign of JF-17.

The primary reason of Block-III delay is probably because of KLJ-7A development & testing. Western options would have been nice, but economically difficult since these would necessitate expensive acquisitions in weapons from Western sources, leading to two distinct versions of JF-17. I know that PAF would not compromise on quality, so the delay is well worth it. I would rather see a delayed but potent JF-17, than a half-baked upgrade.

Chinese hardware has made great progress over the last two decades and I hope that we would relish the fruits in JF-17 Block III.

 

[Windjammer]

Super 7 or Sabre II was nothing more than an F-7 with a solid nose and side intake.
In the same evolution as F-6 to A-5.

 

[Chak Bamu]

if mastankhan was here you know what he would say

The threat is now very real and with loonie Modi swinging, all bets are off.

Before loonie Modi, there was foxy Vajpayee. This does not stop anywhere and has ended up sucking Pakistan dry of all resources.

Mastan Khan is posting as @Karam Ali and indeed this is what he might actually say.

I know Modi is dangerous because he is a fascist demagogue who is looking at falling growth & mounting difficulties at home. But Pakistan has deterrence and India can not be an existential threat. The most serious threat is that of worsening HDI due to lack of investment.

 

[The Eagle]

Super 7 was discarded after Grumman pulled out in 1989. FTC-2000 (minus DSI) is what Super 7 might have looked like. SU-30 MKI came in much much later. The response to SU-30 MKI was redesign of JF-17.

The primary reason of Block-III delay is probably because of KLJ-7A development & testing. Western options would have been nice, but economically difficult since these would necessitate expensive acquisitions in weapons from Western sources, leading to two distinct versions of JF-17. I know that PAF would not compromise on quality, so the delay is well worth it. I would rather see a delayed but potent JF-17, than a half-baked upgrade.

Chinese hardware has made great progress over the last two decades and I hope that we would relish the fruits in JF-17 Block III.

I still remember some chats from the past when JF-17 was initially delayed and then everyone was of the opinion as such as disappointing. Interestingly, most of the times, Thunder was discussed as counter to LCA Tejas and then, the worthy delay of-course, proved it be delivering beyond expectations against different class fighters. Also, we do not understand the secrecy level that in-fact PAF or any other party involved in project will never disclose the real capability which eventually create thoughts into certain minds that Thunder isn't at par to so & so. PAF had a dog fight demo between F-16 & Thunder for 4+ minutes and F-16 rider was surprised at what Thunder is capable of especially in maneuverability. The reason to mention something form past is that, we need to be patient in this regard instead of presuming too much in misleading pretext.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Super 7 or Sabre II was nothing more than an F-7 with a solid nose and side intake.
In the same evolution as F-6 to A-5.

Thanks Windie. These pictures are a great reminder of what we thought we could do; and JF-17 is what we got.

I still remember some chats from the past when JF-17 was initially delayed and then everyone was of the opinion as such as disappointing. Interestingly, most of the times, Thunder was discussed as counter to LCA Tejas and then, the worthy delay of-course, proved it be delivering beyond expectations against different class fighters. Also, we do not understand the secrecy level that in-fact PAF or any other party involved in project will never disclose the real capability which eventually create thoughts into certain minds that Thunder isn't at par to so & so. PAF had a dog fight demo between F-16 & Thunder for 4+ minutes and F-16 rider was surprised at what Thunder is capable of especially in maneuverability. The reason to mention something form past is that, we need to be patient in this regard instead of presuming too much in misleading pretext.

Yup I remember the delay due to redesign very well. It was great to see PT-04 and the euphoria at seeing the improvements was unbelievable. We finally had something that was much more than merely a numbers aircraft to replace F-6 & Mirages.

If JF-17 survives Rafale, then it has not just met, but exceeded its objectives.

 

[Readerdefence]

No one is 100% correct, but I trust Alan Warnes. He speaks to the PAF more than anyone else (at least in the public domain) and, to an extent, even AVIC officials trust him with details they won't write on pamphlets and stuff.

Hi if I may ask did Alan mention PAF specifically for not getting CE version as I’m not judging you but Chinese are pushing for j10 export to other countries also though those can be B version
So I’m little bit sceptical here about not getting CE version for PAF
Though there might be strings attached like block52 but it doesn’t matter much I believe so
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you
PS on a side note PAF might want themselves to wait for another couple of years to check the full potential of CE like HMDS & CFT etc with additional goodies

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi if I may ask did Alan mention PAF specifically for not getting CE version as I’m not judging you but Chinese are pushing for j10 export to other countries also though those can be B version
So I’m little bit sceptical here about not getting CE version for PAF
Though there might be strings attached like block52 but it doesn’t matter much I believe so
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you
PS on a side note PAF might want themselves to wait for another couple of years to check the full potential of CE like HMDS & CFT etc with additional goodies

AVIC has generally been promoting the J-10A - i.e., FC-20 -- for export. That's what the PAF had planned on buying until about 2012 or so, after which it couldn't due to financial issues (it also walked away from the 18 Block-52+).

The J-10B and J-10C were not on AVIC's export portfolio until very recently, as in late 2018 and early 2019, which was when we saw alleged AVIC promotional material for the J-10CE.

However, the PLAAF apparently isn't ready to let the J-10CE go on sale yet, and we don't know why. It could be for any reason, e.g., perhaps they still want CAC to prioritize PLAAF production, it's still too sensitive for overseas use, who knows (I don't). But for what it's worth, in a recent interview retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef said that AVIC (or specifically CAC) would think along business lines, but the PAF on operational lines, and that difference at times had caused a little friction. It can very well be the same situation between AVIC and the PLAAF.

But for all the PAF's 'controversial' decisions, I'd find it really, really hard to believe they'd reject the upgraded variant (J-10CE) of a plane they themselves signed onto as their Plus-One (J-10A/FC-20) a decade ago if that aircraft was actually available for sale. If this was the case the PAF can buy them in small batches in cold cash (because it's in long-term production in China, they have that flexibility), and have them take up the strike role (which was originally intended with the FC-20).

It's either the J-10CE not being available, or the PAF taking on a much more ambitious long-term plan to indigenously develop and build their own fighter (Project Azm), or we're simply short on cash right now

... or a mix of the three.