Japan’s fear of China

[Foinikas]

No it seems like your history skipped the oppression that the British, Japanese and ROC (Taiwan) military regime inflicted on China between 1843 and 1949. And you are not interested in learning why China is the way it is today.

My history? It's not my history. It's your history. And don't tell me that ROC inflicted oppression on big China.
I'll bet you'll tell me that China is like this today,because evil imperialists were bad. And not that Mao and his friends actually caused millions of deaths,chaos and destruction for decades.

 

[Suika]

The Chinese initiated the second Sino-Japanese war before they were ready.

The Nationalists were modernizing their forces with German assistance while at the same time hunting down the communists. The communists got a lucky break with the kidnapping of Chiang Kai-shek at the Xi'an incident in which he was pressured into stopping his hunt on the communists and to form a 2nd united front. This was not to just fight against Japanese. It was also to save the communists. So the Chinese get trigger jumpy and shoot first at the Marco Polo bridge. Then a few weeks later, they move into Shanghai and attack the Japanese settlement with aim of overrunning the Japanese garraison within a week. Talks to calm things down fail. However as stated, the Chinese were not ready for the large scale war that they got themselves in. Japanese make a counter attack, achieve victory in all of Shanghai, and make a fast press towards Nanking with the aim of capturing the then capital of the Nationalists would convince them to accept terms to end the fighting. Very lenient terms were issued to the Nationalists to surrender before the assualt on Nanking. The Chinese refuse. Chiang orders the Chinese defending Nanking to fight to the bitter end dispite the bad strategic geographical situation Nanking was in for defending. The assualt begins, defenses crumble, Chinese commander and a few others make an escape at the very end. Other remaining Chinese soldiers don't surrender but scattered into the population. Japanese put Nanking in 6 week lockdown and massacre fighting age young men. Rape and pillaging also occur. Japanese renew order to its troops to not do that to get local Chinese cooperation. Wang Jingwei joins the Japanese as leader of new Chinese government in formation, coming into full official existance by 1940.

The Japanese "aggressive invasion" is labeled as such because the Chinese were not ready for a total war but they initiated it anyway because the Chinese communists existence needed that change in orientation by the Nationalists for its own survival. Had the Chinese been ready, then there wouldn't have been a Japanese deep penetration and occupation of much of the central China mainland area. That invasion was not initiated by the Japanese. The idea that the Japanese just blitz China like Germany did to Poland is incorrect. To continue the story.. a few years later but in the similar dynamic, the Nationalists needed US involvement to be saved and the US decided to put the survival of the Nationalists central to its Asia policy by March 1941. The Nationalists were tempoarily saved at the expense of granting the US much greater position of influence in the Asia region. But to the US bewelderment, the Nationalists still lost to the Chinese communists as the communists got much needed time for replensihment and big gains as the Soviet Union gave Manchuria to the communists.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

My history? It's not my history. It's your history. And don't tell me that ROC inflicted oppression on big China.
I'll bet you'll tell me that China is like this today,because evil imperialists were bad. And not that Mao and his friends actually caused millions of deaths,chaos and destruction for decades.

ROC used to be all of China until they were defeated and ran to Taiwan. Imagine if your military dictators in 1974 ran away to Cyprus and set up a regime claiming to be the true Greece backed by Turkey.

And yes, China is what it is today - one of the strongest, richest and most advanced countries in the world - thanks in part to Mao.

Not to imperialists. We have them to thank for the ROC regime first looting the mainland then squatting on Taiwan.

 

[tower9]

No it's not that,I just like their culture,language,history and other stuff more. Their pop culture for example.

I don't know about other countries,but in Greece we know that China has a very rich culture,history and one of the most sophisticated civilizations. All that at least,before communism.

Well to be quite frank, I don’t think you would really know Chinese history deeply enough to make an objective assessment. Chinese history is far deeper and longer than japan. With the exception of the past 160 years, Japan was largely a marginal territory off of the shores of the Chinese empire. But of course it’s normal for westerners who grew up watching anime and conversely being told every day by the news that China is a big North Korea to overrate japan and underrate China. But again, that’s your opinion and you have a right to it, I just want to point out that much of that opinion is crafted by the information that is made available to you and western societies in general by the media, who are not objective.

The Chinese initiated the second Sino-Japanese war before they were ready.

The Nationalists were modernizing their forces with German assistance while at the same time hunting down the communists. The communists got a lucky break with the kidnapping of Chiang Kai-shek at the Xi'an incident in which he was pressured into stopping his hunt on the communists and to form a 2nd united front. This was not to just fight against Japanese. It was also to save the communists. So the Chinese get trigger jumpy and shoot first at the Marco Polo bridge. Then a few weeks later, they move into Shanghai and attack the Japanese settlement with aim of overrunning the Japanese garraison within a week. Talks to calm things down fail. However as stated, the Chinese were not ready for the large scale war that they got themselves in. Japanese make a counter attack, achieve victory in all of Shanghai, and make a fast press towards Nanking with the aim of capturing the then capital of the Nationalists would convince them to accept terms to end the fighting. Very lenient terms were issued to the Nationalists to surrender before the assualt on Nanking. The Chinese refuse. Chiang orders the Chinese defending Nanking to fight to the bitter end dispite the bad strategic geographical situation Nanking was in for defending. The assualt begins, defenses crumble, Chinese commander and a few others make an escape at the very end. Other remaining Chinese soldiers don't surrender but scattered into the population. Japanese put Nanking in 6 week lockdown and massacre fighting age young men. Rape and pillaging also occur. Japanese renew order to its troops to not do that to get local Chinese cooperation. Wang Jingwei joins the Japanese as leader of new Chinese government in formation, coming into full official existance by 1940.

The Japanese "aggressive invasion" is labeled as such because the Chinese were not ready for a total war but they initiated it anyway because the Chinese communists existence needed that change in orientation by the Nationalists for its own survival. Had the Chinese been ready, then there wouldn't have been a Japanese deep penetration and occupation of much of the central China mainland area. That invasion was not initiated by the Japanese. The idea that the Japanese just blitz China like Germany did to Poland is incorrect. To continue the story.. a few years later but in the similar dynamic, the Nationalists needed US involvement to be saved and the US decided to put the survival of the Nationalists central to its Asia policy by March 1941. The Nationalists were tempoarily saved at the expense of granting the US much greater position of influence in the Asia region. But to the US bewelderment, the Nationalists still lost to the Chinese communists as the communists got much needed time for replensihment and big gains as the Soviet Union gave Manchuria to the communists.

Excuse but first, what a load of crap. Secondly, what the **** are Japanese troops doing at the other side of the Marco Polo bridge deep in China if they weren’t the aggressors?

Go to fucking hell.

My history? It's not my history. It's your history. And don't tell me that ROC inflicted oppression on big China.
I'll bet you'll tell me that China is like this today,because evil imperialists were bad. And not that Mao and his friends actually caused millions of deaths,chaos and destruction for decades.

Yeah man, from this I know for sure your understanding of China is pretty much limited to the garbage they feed you in the media.

 

[Foinikas]

westerners who grew up watching anime and conversely being told every day by the news that China is a big North Korea to overrate japan and underrate China.

Nobody says that China is a big North Korea here,why do you keep saying that? I'm not in America or something.

 

[tower9]

Nobody says that China is a big North Korea here,why do you keep saying that? I'm not in America or something.

That’s what most of the western media projects. It might be more hysterical in the US but American and British media dominate global news.

Anyways it’s not like you’ve said anything that really demonstrates a deeper knowledge than the typical impressions from the media.

 

[Foinikas]

ROC used to be all of China until they were defeated and ran to Taiwan. Imagine if your military dictators in 1974 ran away to Cyprus and set up a regime claiming to be the true Greece backed by Turkey.

Are you actually comparing the Kuomingtang to Mao's brutal regime and tyranny? To the imposition of atheism and the destruction of tradition? Cultural Revolution? The Great Leap Forward? Wow what a great leader. He caused the death of millions to make China a relatively strong country by the '70s. Thank you comrade Mao! We may not have rice for the winter, because you had the idea to tell everyone to produce steel,but at least we have socialism and your great ideas written down on a little red book.

 

[tower9]

Are you actually comparing the Kuomingtang to Mao's brutal regime and tyranny? To the imposition of atheism and the destruction of tradition? Cultural Revolution? The Great Leap Forward? Wow what a great leader. He caused the death of millions to make China a relatively strong country by the '70s. Thank you comrade Mao! We may not have rice for the winter, because you had the idea to tell everyone to produce steel,but at least we have socialism and your great ideas written down on a little red book.

Many of Mao’s policies were disastrous, no doubt about it. But he did achieve one great achievement which was to unite the country and throw out the western imperialists who had been preying on the Chinese nation for over a century. So his achievement lies primarily in establishing China’s sovereignty and independence and also in destroying many backward cultural practices that were holding China back. His economic policies and the cultural revolution were disasters but the damage has largely been wildly exaggerated by western propaganda.

 

[Suika]

Excuse but first, what a load of crap. Secondly, what the **** are Japanese troops doing at the other side of the Marco Polo bridge deep in China if they weren’t the aggressors?

Go to fucking hell.

There was some agreement that allowed forign troops along a rail path towards Beijing. Japanese and Chinese tensions went up along the Manchuria border so there were tensions between Japanese and Chinese in that area with squabbles such as the one causing the build up of both sides at the Marco Polo bridge.

There were unequal treaties on Japan as well. But those got peeled back peacefully. Decades later, the Nationalists were on a raise. Without the Second Sino-Japanese dusrupting growing Nationalists indudtry and military, such unequal treaties could have been peeled back without a war. Although if the Nationalists wanted to capture Manchuria from the Japanese empire, war was probably unavoidable. The Chinese lost Manchuria to the failure of the Fangian Clique in 1928 with no subsequent Chinese faction moving in to exercise actual control. Instead the Soviets started spreading its influence there. Then the Japanese took the place in 1931-32.

 

[Foinikas]

Many of Mao’s policies were disastrous, no doubt about it. But he did achieve one great achievement which was to unite the country and throw out the western imperialists who had been preying on the Chinese nation for over a century. So his achievement lies primarily in establishing China’s sovereignty and independence and also in destroying many backward cultural practices that were holding China back. His economic policies and the cultural revolution were disasters but the damage has largely been wildly exaggerated by western propaganda.

Man,the cost man. The cost in lives and suffering. It was Stalinism. His ideas were a disaster for the country and yet he was propagated as a supreme intelligence in China. That was a typical cult of personality,just like many of the other communist regimes had.

 

[tower9]

There was some agreement that allowed forign troops along a rail path towards Beijing. Japanese and Chinese tensions went up along the Manchuria border so there were tensions between Japanese and Chinese in that area with squabbles such as the one causing the build up of both sides at the Marco Polo bridge.

There were unequal treaties on Japan as well. But those got peeled back peacefully. Decades later, the Nationalists were on a raise. Without the Second Sino-Japanese dusrupting growing Nationalists indudtry and military, such unequal treaties could have been peeled back without a war. Although if the Nationalists wanted to capture Manchuria from the Japanese empire, war was probably unavoidable. The Chinese lost Manchuria to the failure of the Fangian Clique in 1928 with no subsequent Chinese faction moving in to exercise actual control. Instead the Soviets started spreading its influence there. Then the Japanese took the place in 1931-32.

So basically you are selectively choosing facts. Regardless of what you are saying, which is preposterous btw, Japanese troops were AT THE MARCO POLO BRIDGE which was right outside of Beijing. That's like me saying that Japanese troops fired upon Chinese troops stationed outside of Sensoji in Tokyo and this was an act of aggression against China.

Are you even sane enough to process what you are saying?

Fucking ridiculous. This is why Chinese people have never forgotten what Japan has done.

 

[OIO]

Japan is a peaceful country where people have freedom of religion they are not Communist like Russia and China

Japanese people are considered the best behaved and respectful tourists of the World

Japan gave many loans to China during the opening up policy which is the reason China developed

Japan has studied China for a long time in history, but Japan has only learned the form of the state of Chinese etiquette, but not the humanity.

There have been many discussions about religious freedom, and you have participated in it for a long time. I believe we cannot convince the other party that continuing the discussion is meaningless.

I hope you will discuss religious freedom with the Japanese. Frankly speaking, I personally don't think that Japanese and Islamic countries will treat others well when they are strong. This is the difference between China and yours.

 

[tower9]

Man,the cost man. The cost in lives and suffering. It was Stalinism. His ideas were a disaster for the country and yet he was propagated as a supreme intelligence in China. That was a typical cult of personality,just like many of the other communist regimes had.

Undoubtedly, those are certainly features of his regime that were disastrous. On the whole though, the cost of having your country ravaged by imperialist forces are far greater. Look how much China had fallen during the period of Western imperialism? From a great empire to a rump state with starving citizens getting cannibalized by Japan and the West. It is really amazing how much Western depictions of Chinese history tend to just leave out this significant part of China's modern history. It is also the reason why China is so forthright in insisting on its sovereignty when it comes to its territorial rights in Taiwan, the South China Sea, Tibet or Xinjiang. If you do not understand what China has gone through in terms of being degraded by Western and Japanese imperialism, you really can't understand why China insists so much on its sovereignty and means it. It is not the will of the CCP, but the will of the Chinese people.

Secondly, in addition to establishing China's sovereignty and independence, the Mao era also saw a large scale revolution of Chinese culture. Of course, some of it was extreme and this caused great damage, primarily during the Cultural Revolution. But in many ways, these social revolutions also gave Chinese society the power to reinvent itself in ways that makes it so competitive today. Women became equals to Men for the first time in history, and this is NOT the case in traditional Asian countries like Japan, S. Korea or Taiwan. This is why Chinese women have a huge share as leaders in Chinese businesses and why China has 2/3rds of the world's female billionaires. Chinese women are far more empowered and stronger than even the West for instance. Facts like this you would never know from watching the garbage and lies fed to you by the Western media.

Secondly, Chinese society is much more egalitarian and this is part of the reason why China's innovation industry today is far more dynamic than most other countries. Japan and S. Korea by contrast have very rigid Confucian like hierarchies and this has stifled dynamism. Getting rid of many of these feudal and archaic hierarchies have allowed Chinese entrepreneurialism this incredible energy that is rarely found anywhere else in the world.

Thirdly, China is able to face the West as an equal due to its sovereignty. Japan and S. Korea are vassals, mere pets, of the West. That is why they are celebrated, while you are taught to hate China.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Are you actually comparing the Kuomingtang to Mao's brutal regime and tyranny? To the imposition of atheism and the destruction of tradition? Cultural Revolution? The Great Leap Forward? Wow what a great leader. He caused the death of millions to make China a relatively strong country by the '70s. Thank you comrade Mao! We may not have rice for the winter, because you had the idea to tell everyone to produce steel,but at least we have socialism and your great ideas written down on a little red book.

You have no idea how bad the Kuomintang were. Ever think about why people rose up against them? No of course not. If you have the slightest intellectual curiosity read the book Tales of Hulan River (呼兰河传）by Xiao Hong, a female author in the KMT era. Or stories like 祝福 (New Years Sacrifice) and 记念刘和珍君 (In Memory of Liu Hezhen) by Lu Xun, one of the most famous authors in Chinese history, also during the KMT era.

Btw, you want to compare to another country of equal size as China that kept tradition, kept religion, etc? India.

India did not get lower death rate than China in the Mao era 1975 until 2010:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India did not get higher life expectancy than China in the Mao era 1975 until 2005:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India in 2011 still had lower literacy than China in 1982.

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India up until 2010 or so, was a worse place to live than 1975 Mao era China. Why is that? Maybe it's because Mao's policies worked somehow, or at least, better than its competitor in India. Yet from the way you hear about Shining India, Rising India, Superpower India you'd think that they were neck and neck with China.

But you never think "lol Indian liars with superstitious mob rule = no food" even though they are objectively worse than Mao era China. You will never think that because you're like Pavlov's dog, you are conditioned to think about China in one way and India in another even though the god damn World Bank agrees that India today is worse than Mao era China. This isn't even to say India is horrendous, huge numbers of developing countries today have not surpassed 1970's China yet. This is just an example of how you are mentally conditioned.

 

[tower9]

You have no idea how bad the Kuomintang were. Ever think about why people rose up against them? No of course not. If you have the slightest intellectual curiosity read the book Tales of Hulan River (呼兰河传）by Xiao Hong, a female author in the KMT era. Or stories like 祝福 (New Years Sacrifice) and 记念刘和珍君 (In Memory of Liu Hezhen) by Lu Xun, one of the most famous authors in Chinese history, also during the KMT era.

Btw, you want to compare to another country of equal size as China that kept tradition, kept religion, etc? India.

India did not get lower death rate than China in the Mao era 1975 until 2010:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India did not get higher life expectancy than China in the Mao era 1975 until 2005:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India in 2011 still had lower literacy than China in 1982.

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

India up until 2010 or so, was a worse place to live than 1975 Mao era China. Why is that? Maybe it's because Mao's policies worked somehow, or at least, better than its competitor in India. Yet from the way you hear about Shining India, Rising India, Superpower India you'd think that they were neck and neck with China.

But you never think "lol Indian liars with superstitious mob rule = no food" even though they are objectively worse than Mao era China. You will never think that because you're like Pavlov's dog, you are conditioned to think about China in one way and India in another even though the god damn World Bank agrees that India today is worse than Mao era China. This isn't even to say India is horrendous, huge numbers of developing countries today have not surpassed 1970's China yet. This is just an example of how you are mentally conditioned.

To be fair though, I think if the ROC had managed to stay in power, ROC China would be in no way comparable to India. I think the ROC would've made much better economic progress than the PRC during the 50s to the 70s. Today, China would undoubtedly already be the world's largest economy and would probably have a much higher per capita GDP because it was integrated into global trade much earlier. The West would probably be inundated by Chinese pop culture and Westerners would be cooing about taking a trip to Shanghai like they talk about going to Tokyo or Singapore. But at the same time, China would probably be subordinate to Western powers and be a follower and not a leader. It's innovation would likely have gotten handicapped by the US somehow as well like what the Plaza Accords did to Japan back in the 80s and Chinese women would be nowhere as powerful and liberated as they are now. China would be far more confined by traditional hierarchies as well.

What the PRC is doing now is setting new ground and testing new systems which the world has never seen before. It is among the most, if not the most, dynamic and innovative society today and all this in the face of unmitigated sabotage, hostility and hatred from the West. Framing things this way will probably make most Westerners think of you as some kind of lunatic, when in fact, it is a reflection of actual facts. The same Westerners think 90s era Japan who still uses fax as a major method of communication is somehow more advanced than cashless China today who is the only peer rival to Silicon Valley.