What's new

Japan deploys first DOWNGRADED F-35

You can believe whatever you want.

If you want to claim Global Security, Russian embassy in India website, and Australia Air Power are all printing fiction then that's your choice.
It is not about my belief. The figures you are quoting are "estimates." Nothing concrete.

Can you tell me anything about Chinese RAM coating? And what about Chinese engines? Those figures you posted are pure fantasy.
 
@Martian2

RCS of F-22, F-35 and B-2 are classified.

RCS of J-31 and J-20 are mostly speculation.

Information in public domain is largely suspect.
You suggest we shut up because everything is classified ?
This is a forum and we discuss on subjects based on what is publicly available, suspect or otherwise, or SHUT UP.
.
 
You suggest we shut up because everything is classified ?
This is a forum and we discuss on subjects based on what is publicly available, suspect or otherwise, or SHUT UP.
.
No, you can post anything here. However, expect outlandish claims to be challenged.

Nobody here is privy to actual rcs of aircraft in question. The figures that are floating on the web are estimates - not the real thing.
 
It is not about my belief. The figures you are quoting are "estimates." Nothing concrete.

Can you tell me anything about Chinese RAM coating? And what about Chinese engines? Those figures you posted are pure fantasy.
I disagree.

Global Security probably spoke to people associated with the F-22 to publish their claim.

Richard D. Fisher (an acknowledged expert on Chinese military technology) does this all of the time. In the footnotes to Richard D. Fisher's articles, he says that he spoke to Asian defense officials and they told him so and so. For example, Richard D. Fisher was the first to my knowledge to claim MIRVed Chinese missiles, because Asian defense officials told him. A few years later, the information on Chinese MIRVed missiles became public knowledge.

Australia Air Power has access to defense experts, the Australian government, and computer analysis to make their estimate of China's J-20 stealth fighter RCS.

The Russian government's official website RCS data on the T-50/Pak-Fa comes directly from the mouth of the Russian government.

The sources that I cited have superior access to information. It is the best information available.
 
Last edited:
I disagree.

Global Security probably spoke to people associated with the F-22 to publish their claim.

Richard D. Fisher (an acknowledged expert on Chinese military technology) does this all of the time. In the footnotes to Richard D. Fisher's articles, he says that he spoke to Asian defense officials and they told him so and so. For example, Richard D. Fisher was the first to my knowledge to claim MIRVed Chinese missiles, because Asian defense officials told him. A few years later, the information on Chinese MIRVed missiles became public knowledge.

Australia Air Power has access to defense experts, the Australian government, and computer analysis to make their estimate of China's J-20 stealth fighter RCS.

The Russian government's official website RCS data on the T-50/Pak-Fa comes directly from the mouth of the Russian government.

The sources that I cited have superior access to information. It is the best information available.
Nobody will convey to the public true rcs figures of stealthy aircraft just like that.

"Real RCS values are highly classified." - Zikidis and Skondras (2017)*

FYI:-

https://defenseissues.net/2014/12/24/comparing-stealth-fighters/
*https://www.researchgate.net/public...tealth_Aircraft_and_Anti-Stealth_Technologies

You might not be aware but it is an SOP of USAF and USN to operate F-22 and F-35 with "RCS enhancers."

file.php
 
Last edited:
Let me address the issue of Chinese Radar Absorbent Materials (RAM).

At the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show, China's Seek Optics Company displayed information on its RAM stealth coating.

China had 20 years to improve its stealth coating.

We know China is excellent in materials science, because they publish a lot of science research articles on new materials.

Hence, after 20 years of improvements (1998-2018), the general consensus is that Chinese RAM technology is as good as US RAM.
----------


Modernization of the Chinese Air Force | Indian Defence Review (December 28, 2014)


HWH401U.jpg


Nobody will convey to the public true rcs figures of stealthy aircraft just like that.

"Real RCS values are highly classified." - Zikidis and Skondras (2017)*

FYI:-

https://defenseissues.net/2014/12/24/comparing-stealth-fighters/
*https://www.researchgate.net/public...tealth_Aircraft_and_Anti-Stealth_Technologies

You might not be aware but it is an SOP of USAF and USN to operate F-22 and F-35 with "RCS enhancers."

file.php
Radar reflectors to increase RCS are well known. It's old and irrelevant information.
 
Let me address the issue of Chinese Radar Absorbent Materials (RAM).

At the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show, China's Seek Optics Company displayed information on its RAM stealth coating.

China had 20 years to improve its stealth coating.

We know China is excellent in materials science, because they publish a lot of science research articles on new materials.

Hence, after 20 years of improvements (1998-2018), the general consensus is that Chinese RAM technology is as good as US RAM.
----------


Modernization of the Chinese Air Force | Indian Defence Review (December 28, 2014)


HWH401U.jpg



Radar reflectors to increase RCS are well known. It's old and irrelevant information.
Nothing you posted here suggests that Chinese RAM coating is on par with American RAM coating in quality and effectiveness. Even if it is, why would China want anybody to know?

Secondly, it surprises me that some members continue to take publicly floating figures of rcs of stealthy aircraft at face value. Please do not. They are mostly approximations.

And why is the employment of an "RCS enhancer" for operations involving F-22 and F-35 irrelevant in this discussion? This SOP suggests that the operators do not want anybody to get an idea of the actual rcs of these aircraft. Very simple.
 
Nothing you posted here suggests that Chinese RAM coating is on par with American RAM coating in quality and effectiveness. Even if it is, why would China want anybody to know?

Secondly, it surprises me that some members continue to take publicly floating figures of rcs at face value. Please do not. They are mostly approximations.

How is the employment of "RCS enhancers" for operations involving F-22 and F-35 irrelevant in this discussion? This SOP suggests that the operators do not want anybody to get an idea of their true rcs.
There is reason to think Chinese RAM is as good as US RAM.

The Chinese J-20 is believed to use Indium Tin Oxide to coat the cockpit glass canopy. Since we know China has transparent RAM, there is every reason to think China's opaque RAM on the stealth aircraft is comparable to the US.

China has a massive radar facility to test RCS.

Foreign RCS Ranges | IMINT & Analysis (December 14, 2009)
"China operates a large RCS measurement facility in Beijing."

Since the J-20 is in service, it means the J-20 has met its performance specifications. The J-20 is designed to fight the F-22. Having met its performance specifications, the most reasonable inference is the J-20 RAM and overall RCS is a match for the F-22.
----------

The iridescent J-20 transparent RAM coating is obvious in the first picture.

WKSFV37.jpg


d2zZbsA.jpg
 
Last edited:
J-20 with radar reflector to enable air traffic control to see the J-20 fighter

China's J-20 opaque radar absorbent material (RAM) and transparent RAM are stealthy.

The J-20 is equipped with a radar reflector to enable air traffic control to see the plane.

dHNhUue.jpg


II9lroS.jpg


haxWFx9.jpg


rbmCkds.jpg
 
You ever watch that Clint Eastwood movie Firefox?

The last two pictures remind me of that fictional aircraft.

Gorgeous.

Eastwood-290-450x583.jpg


 
Last edited:
The Chengdu J-31 is superior to the Lockheed Martin F-35 in many ways

The J-31 has a service ceiling of 66,000 feet. The F-35 has a service ceiling of 50,000 feet. Since the J-31's air-to-air missiles glide down 16,000 feet to attack the F-35, the J-31 missiles have longer range and have "first strike" capability.

The J-31 is designed to supercruise. The F-35 cannot supercruise. The F-35 is inferior, because of its lift-fan design requirement. All F-35 variants have a wide fuselage to accommodate a lift-fan (whether it is present or not) due to the common platform design for the F-35. This requires a thick wing root to support the lift-fan design. This means the F-35 is much heavier than the J-31.

Due to the F-35 wide fuselage and large single-engine design, it violates the AREA RULE (see citation below from Popular Science). This means the J-31 has superior acceleration and efficiency in supersonic flight. The F-35 cannot have twin engines, because it would increase the weight of the fighter. For the F-35 marine variant, twice the number of mechanical actuators would be required to move the exhaust nozzles for VTOL flight.

The F-22 design (except for the lack of DSI) is the epitome of stealth shape. The Chengdu J-20 and J-31 have flat mirror-smooth undersides like the F-22. The J-20 and J-31 are stealthy. HOWEVER, the F-35 underside looks nothing like the F-22 underside. The F-35 has giant bulges that reflect radar back to the transmitter. This is clearly NOT STEALTHY.

You can see the F-35 thick wing root is rounded. Also, the fuselage adjacent to the F-35 engine has a round shape. This is terrible design and reflects radar in all directions back to the transmitters to make it not stealthy. In contrast, the Chengdu J-31 has a straight wing root. This is in planform alignment with the J-31 fuselage and it is stealthy.

IMkH7dg.jpg


DcYlae7.jpg

----------

China's J-31 Stealth Fighter: Then And Now | Popular Science (November 13, 2014)

"The J-31 differs from the F-35 in that it has two engines, which in turn reduces its area ruling, making for more efficient supersonic flight, including future supercruise once the J-31 obtains more powerful engines."

9WmaDTp.jpg
 
Last edited:
The criticism against the F-22's and F-35's combat ranges is based upon ignorance, specifically that of war doctrine unique to the country, and that somehow that made the J-20's 'superior'.

Combat radius is defined as the maximum range an aircraft can travel to a location, perform its mission, and return to base. The definition is general in scope.

It is the mission that complicates the debate and produced ignorance based assertions of superiority and inferiority.

The B-2 have flown from CONUS to Yugoslavia, performed its mission, and returned to base. Does that make the B-2 'superior' to the J-20 ? Of course not. The mission is different which produced a different type of aircraft for a different combat doctrine. The mission produced what is called a 'bomber'.

The B-2 has a very specific mission -- to carry large tonnages of bombs.

The A-10 has a very specific mission -- to support ground combat for as long as possible at as low altitude as possible.

The F-16 has a very specific mission -- to do whatever is asked of it. From being a patrol fighter, to attack, to interceptor, and even reconnaissance.

Each mission affects its combat radius. The results are the B-2, AWACS, and tankers have combat radii in the four digits while the F-16 have less. The F-16's mission is broader in scope than the bomber, necessitating an airframe that is compromise laden, of which range is one compromise. Calling a compromise as an 'inferiority' or a 'flaw' is just plain stupid, and such stupidity is common in this forum.

The F-16, F-15, and F-35 are international airframes, so take a look at this combat radius map...

di1PA0I.jpg


How many countries can fit into the geographical US ? Not many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gener...lcon_operators#/media/File:F-16_operators.png

Why would any country that is far smaller -- geographically -- than the US want to buy and maintain an airframe that can range a continent ?

Which now leads to war doctrines.

The F-35's combat radius can cover approximately half of CONUS. What are the odds of the USAF and USN actually have to fight an invader on home soil ? Very low. The reality is that the invading army would be destroyed by the US Army and armed US citizens without the need for air support. But that would be for a different debate assuming the invading army made it past the ocean barriers.

The US military is an expeditionary military like none in history. Of course in the past, armies have crossed continents but those campaigns were yrs in mission and the armies literally lived off the lands. The US military -- so far -- is the only one that can transport itself EXTRAHEMISPHERICALLY with everything a particular campaign needs.

The war doctrine here is that the F-35 -- as an international airframe -- will not be fighting alone. Take the F-35 combat radius over CONUS and transpose that over any country in Europe and Asia and it is clear that the F-35 can cross borders in short air time. Whether a particular F-35 is US flagged or not -- is not the point. If US airpower has to fight, by that time, all the necessary diplomatic resolutions are done and US flagged F-35s will be stationed in host countries who are committed to the fight as well.

http://www.travelersdigest.com/7356...on-to-the-united-states-united-kingdom-japan/

Look at ( above ) Germany in comparisons to various US states and other countries.

Look at Texas. The F-35 unrefueled can easily cross Texas. Same for Germany. So why would Germany needs a multirole fighter that can travels over several countries ?

The F-35's combat radius is ideal matched for all maritime partners like Japan and South Korea who have no need for anything more as international waters is no different than borders of other countries. Waters poses unique challenges for anyone so the F-35 combat radius is not a deterrence to the operator country that seeks a versatile platform for its maritime patrol needs. A single F-35 squadron can do serious damages to any invading navy two or three hundreds miles offshore. A clean F-16 over water and below 1,000 ft altitude is a radar threat to any ship, now imagine a flight of F-35s with their 'stealthy' features and enclosed ordnance flying below 1,000 ft approaching an invading fleet.

Casting doubts on the combat efficacy of the F-35 based upon a specious comparison to the J-20 is outright ignorant and stupid. Usually from those who have never served and do not know what they are talking about. :rolleyes:
 
Back
Top Bottom