J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Zain Malik]

How can you say that......????

Europeans are not like american... they just don't care about great game or to contain china by isolating her. they want money because domestic demand is decreasing steadily..
and remember during US's sanctions there was not any big hurdle to acquire weapons from Europe..

 

[guest11]

May be the author is not an indian I have no way and skill to find that out. Most of what was mentioned in this article has been mentioned again and again on this forum by indian posters. My apologies if your ego got hurt.

I don't get bruised so easily, amused yes, bruised not so much.

I am not good at internet and this 'sources' argument.

for Mirage 2000, if you know an IAF pilot you can trust, simply ask him if IAF mirages have a button/switch for turning on 9G limit and if it is not turned on than what is its 'normal' G limit.

+8G for JF-17 does not rule out a higher setting.

About Mig 29, I think the issue most probably was with air-frame stress on their fleet, what is the case with IAF Mig 29s I do not know, although they got them upgraded and they should be in a better shape. But as much as I know, naval version of Mig 29 is 7G limited, I'll sift through my collection of journals and may be try posting a scanned image.

You do realize that you went head strong into the argument without "facts" at hands and I mean "facts" not opinions There is a vast difference between the two.

Here is the OEM, MiG's site check for yourself.

http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/en/

This engine related debate I have read again and again on this forum and pardon me from indian posters mostly. If you can, get over it. Engine thrust can be enhanced even for same core but results in a lower engine life. It depends on what one is looking for, more thrust or more life.

I haven't and I'll gladly accept my mistakes and move on if some sort of evidence is backing up the claims about the thrust which is being repeated relentlessly for past couple of years on this forum. Again opinions are not facts, so take it or leave it.

 

[ghazi768]

I don't get bruised so easily, amused yes, bruised not so much.



You do realize that you went head strong into the argument without "facts" at hands and I mean "facts" not opinions There is a vast difference between the two.

Here is the OEM, MiG's site check for yourself.

http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/en/



I haven't and I'll gladly accept my mistakes and move on if some sort of evidence is backing up the claims about the thrust which is being repeated relentlessly for past couple of years on this forum. Again opinions are not facts, so take it or leave it.

Nope, i am fine with my, what you called 'opinions', also I do not think internet based marketing sites are a great source for 'facts' you are talking about. But alright, I stand by my 'opinions'.

 

[guest11]

Nope, i am fine with my, what you called 'opinions', also I do not think internet based marketing sites are a great source for 'facts' you are talking about. But alright, I stand by my 'opinions'.

Sure whatever floats your boat.

 

[ghazi768]

If I remember correctly Rafale being offered at that time was with RBE PESA radar. Also I do not think PAF was ever interested in purchasing Rafale at all, it was only interested in a few subsystems but French were trying to push through Rafale. Which was a bad deal for many reasons.

- It would have cost a lot, not just cost of aircrafts but also servicing them required long term contracts resulting much more than 5-6 billion dollars.

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

- It would have practically stinted the whole fleet with grave consequences even upto present times. We would certainly had a couple of squadrons of Rafales which PDF guys can than debate to oblivion between pakistani and indian members. But the remaining fleet would have been left with an eye watering level of obsolescence. Old F16A fighters which at best can fire almost expired sparrows, mirages running out of life and F7s to zip around in air.

- Any chances of acquiring AIM-120 out of window.

- Any chances of upgrading F-16s out of window.

- Any chances of being able to integrate any other weapons especially Chinese origin with even any remaining and decaying JF-17 prototypes, out of window.

- About 30 odd Rafales to fly around in and do chest thumping in front of 240+ Su-30s with tiny and untested MICAs with a miserable 50+ km range.

What a bloody nightmare, thanks to Allah we were much saner and decided to take the better route.

- Decided to upgrade F-16 fleet up to block 50+ standard and added a few and resulted in 70+ fighters with very decent AIM-120-C5 which were the best US were ready to part with, better than the competition.

- Resulted in 60+ JF-17s and still counting which are no slouches either in radar range or in BVR combat or in WVR combat. With lot of freedom to integrate what you can get you hand on and chances of getting even better with planned future upgrades.

 

[New World]

How can you say that......????

see the cooperation between EU and china in Nuclear, Military, High tech, etc.. European countries are growing their cooperation in china.. helicopter tech in china is from france.. they are starting JV with china... and china has started to invest in Nuclear field in UK..

 

[volatile]

I am shocked and no offense to see a positive rating to these comments . I would like to differ from your approach not on the basis of fanboy or some thing but based on Ideologies and thinking .

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.
French are more reliable then US and historically French have never ditched us during the time of crisis be it Pressler amendments we were given ROSE package for vintage ,we were given Augusta Submarines which were state of the art that time .

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

Why you say some thing like that i failed to understand .If Rafale were selected JF17 would have been given special package to buddy with Rafale ,Yes i agree 200 plus would have been not possible but 100 Plus coupled with Rafale and same level of Instruments and weapon system ,i would have taken those any day. As Block 1,2 are still far behind those block 52+

If I remember correctly Rafale being offered at that time was with RBE PESA radar. Also I do not think PAF was ever interested in purchasing Rafale at all, it was only interested in a few subsystems but French were trying to push through Rafale. Which was a bad deal for many reasons.

- It would have cost a lot, not just cost of aircrafts but also servicing them required long term contracts resulting much more than 5-6 billion dollars.

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

- It would have practically stinted the whole fleet with grave consequences even upto present times. We would certainly had a couple of squadrons of Rafales which PDF guys can than debate to oblivion between pakistani and indian members. But the remaining fleet would have been left with an eye watering level of obsolescence. Old F16A fighters which at best can fire almost expired sparrows, mirages running out of life and F7s to zip around in air.

You have to understand the psyche here US wants to keep Pak in his camp ,Day we will get AESA for F17 US will offer F16 V ,For your answer F16 A/B at that time we would have retired but MLU was not a problem it would have been done just to check French connection .I am sorry I dont buy this argument .

- Any chances of acquiring AIM-120 out of window.
Any chance of azquiring HOBS from US is out of Question ,so whats the point AIM 120 is potent system but when we needed some thing in 1990`s and early 2000s we didnt have why we trusted US .That area we would have seen French/South African/ British /Chinese system .We only buy 500 AIM 120 whats the point if we dont have a decent platform to fire those.?

- Any chances of upgrading F-16s out of window.
It would have been more easier and frankly we would have been offered more used F16 with MLU kits being supplied

- Any chances of being able to integrate any other weapons especially Chinese origin with even any remaining and decaying JF-17 prototypes, out of window.
Why you say some thing like this ,we integrated A2A on Chinese F6 ,we integrated French ammunition as per our will

- About 30 odd Rafales to fly around in and do chest thumping in front of 240+ Su-30s with tiny and untested MICAs with a miserable 50+ km range.
240+ SU 30 availability rate less than 50% .36 Rafale coupled with Erieye Plus more induction would have possible in Pak territory think again .

What a bloody nightmare, thanks to Allah we were much saner and decided to take the better route.
Yes only time will tell about blunders we do

- Decided to upgrade F-16 fleet up to block 50+ standard and added a few and resulted in 70+ fighters with very decent AIM-120-C5 which were the best US were ready to part with, better than the competition.
We dont have AIM 120 D which is more potent and accurate but HOBS which is the future didnt have those .70 F16 with probably kill switches / Sanction pron /no guarantee for future upgrades ? WOW Thanks God for testing our patience as well as keep us safe with the type of planning ,All F16 operators are retiring and we are inducting ? Smart really

- Resulted in 60+ JF-17s and still counting which are no slouches either in radar range or in BVR combat or in WVR combat. With lot of freedom to integrate what you can get you hand on and chances of getting even better with planned future upgrades.

These are speculations and nothing more . Defence cant be planned on F16 or sanction pron assets .Whats the point . The added advantages were Not to opted for this in 2004

1.JF17 100+ /Rafale 36+ + MIrages 50+ /F7 50+ ,F16 MLU 50+
2. Because of this planning we are nearing to 190-200 planes end life and we dont have alternate
3. We handed over best friend France to India ,So Congrats we didn't go for Rafale but we will be facing them in coming time with the same F16s and F17 .
4. F16 which we have so much hype in time of war will prove itself and this decision.
5. F17 future has no issue weather we stayed with US or France ,with France all avionics would have been arrived much quickly .
6. Most importantly other than China i am repeating myself France would have been out ticket to many arenas world wide .

For concluding my remarks i'm putting an Example .Chinese AWACS and ERIEYE the best decision ever taken by Mushy why in time of one being sanctioned we already have options .Even though Swedes dont want to do any business but still there is news of system being sold possibly to PAk .

 

[MastanKhan]

I am shocked and no offense to see a positive rating to these comments . I would like to differ from your approach not on the basis of fanboy or some thing but based on Ideologies and thinking .

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.
French are more reliable then US and historically French have never ditched us during the time of crisis be it Pressler amendments we were given ROSE package for vintage ,we were given Augusta Submarines which were state of the art that time .

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

Why you say some thing like that i failed to understand .If Rafale were selected JF17 would have been given special package to buddy with Rafale ,Yes i agree 200 plus would have been not possible but 100 Plus coupled with Rafale and same level of Instruments and weapon system ,i would have taken those any day. As Block 1,2 are still far behind those block 52+




These are speculations and nothing more . Defence cant be planned on F16 or sanction pron assets .Whats the point . The added advantages were Not to opted for this in 2004

1.JF17 100+ /Rafale 36+ + MIrages 50+ /F7 50+ ,F16 MLU 50+
2. Because of this planning we are nearing to 190-200 planes end life and we dont have alternate
3. We handed over best friend France to India ,So Congrats we didn't go for Rafale but we will be facing them in coming time with the same F16s and F17 .
4. F16 which we have so much hype in time of war will prove itself and this decision.
5. F17 future has no issue weather we stayed with US or France ,with France all avionics would have been arrived much quickly .
6. Most importantly other than China i am repeating myself France would have been out ticket to many arenas world wide .

For concluding my remarks i'm putting an Example .Chinese AWACS and ERIEYE the best decision ever taken by Mushy why in time of one being sanctioned we already have options .Even though Swedes dont want to do any business but still there is news of system being sold possibly to PAk .

Hi,

The FOOLS don't understand that the F16 is ONE ELECTRONIC CLICK away from being made inoperative---just ONE CLICK and all the electronic management systems would shut down.

Our sub sub prime banks have been doing it to cars for over 15 years now---it is a homeland security requirement that all aircraft manufactured by the U S will have kill switches thru data link.

 

[ghazi768]

I am shocked and no offense to see a positive rating to these comments . I would like to differ from your approach not on the basis of fanboy or some thing but based on Ideologies and thinking .

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.
French are more reliable then US and historically French have never ditched us during the time of crisis be it Pressler amendments we were given ROSE package for vintage ,we were given Augusta Submarines which were state of the art that time .

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

Why you say some thing like that i failed to understand .If Rafale were selected JF17 would have been given special package to buddy with Rafale ,Yes i agree 200 plus would have been not possible but 100 Plus coupled with Rafale and same level of Instruments and weapon system ,i would have taken those any day. As Block 1,2 are still far behind those block 52+




These are speculations and nothing more . Defence cant be planned on F16 or sanction pron assets .Whats the point . The added advantages were Not to opted for this in 2004

1.JF17 100+ /Rafale 36+ + MIrages 50+ /F7 50+ ,F16 MLU 50+
2. Because of this planning we are nearing to 190-200 planes end life and we dont have alternate
3. We handed over best friend France to India ,So Congrats we didn't go for Rafale but we will be facing them in coming time with the same F16s and F17 .
4. F16 which we have so much hype in time of war will prove itself and this decision.
5. F17 future has no issue weather we stayed with US or France ,with France all avionics would have been arrived much quickly .
6. Most importantly other than China i am repeating myself France would have been out ticket to many arenas world wide .

For concluding my remarks i'm putting an Example .Chinese AWACS and ERIEYE the best decision ever taken by Mushy why in time of one being sanctioned we already have options .Even though Swedes dont want to do any business but still there is news of system being sold possibly to PAk .

French not sanctioning us in case of a war!

Read about french actions in 65, 71 wars.

Even after a deal with obscene amounts of money for Rafale still having funds for SAME AVIONICS for 100+ JF-17s.

You must be some college/university going kid still requiring financing by abba gee..

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

As for the funds---paf donated the money to charity that was to be spent for the defense of the nation.

I would rather have had 36 Rafales plus 200 JF17's with Thales avionis any time of the day---than have 100 F16's and the current JF17's.

With the french avionics---our JF17 program would have been 10 years ahead of where it is now.

And why would there be any problems with the Aamraams----if you have Rafales---and French missiles as well---the american would sell you everything---because they are not disturbing the balance.

And there would be a lesser chance of sanctions from the U S---because they already know---they would not make any difference---.

Paf and its cromnies are so STUPID---that they cannot even hear things that are said in the open.

The U S senator openly stated---give them the F16's---and we can sanction them anytime we want to---if they go elsewhere and get something else---we lose control.

The funds for the supposed F16 purchase after 9/11 were given to earthquake charity---what was the number---some 72 F16's.

Hi,

Comparing French sanctions to those of the U S is being dellusional---. Where the U S sanctions choke you to death---the French sanctions are like a slap on the wrist.

@volatile ,

First they paved the way way for our enemy to get the M2K in the first place in the 80's----then they paved the way for them to get the Rafale in the 21st century as well.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's that they squandered----they could have bought 42 Rafales and put 250 million dollars in fixed account---and the INTEREST would have covered the maintenance cost----.

Or they could have gotten 36 Rafales and put 1/2 billion dollars in fixed account---and the interest would have been more than enough to solve the problems.

Even 30 rafales would have made a tremendous difference---because then you would have had Tier one avionics for your JF17's---.

And then---why would you need the F16 BLK 52's when your own equipment the JF17 with french avionics and missiles is superior to that.

 

[Alpha Fighter]

Hi,

The FOOLS don't understand that the F16 is ONE ELECTRONIC CLICK away from being made inoperative---just ONE CLICK and all the electronic management systems would shut down.

Our sub sub prime banks have been doing it to cars for over 15 years now---it is a homeland security requirement that all aircraft manufactured by the U S will have kill switches thru data link.

IF their is kill Switch , US wont use it in normal war, until n unless you are not going to drop N. BOMB Fighting with US force where US is defeating.

Using KILL Switch on normal use will reduce credibility of US Weapon in market.

 

[volatile]

French not sanctioning us in case of a war!

I am shocked by your opinion and justification but will leave my shockness to some other day .

Even after a deal with obscene amounts of money for Rafale still having funds for SAME AVIONICS for 100+ JF-17s.

At any day i would have 100 potent aeroplanes over non potent aeroplanes ,By the way the same justification you gave about 70+ potent F16s .So please think before you speak

You must be some college/university going kid still requiring financing by abba gee..

Lolz ,I have my own kids and with the grace of Allah i belong to a humble family not likes of some people who are DAMADS of Pakistan .I am a self made man with working from my late teens (but obviously dont need to tell you but to share what it means to comment i worked for couple of companies German/French and I have more experience to comment what it means i have more leverage and experience to talk about French/German/British mentality so dare not telling me how to deal and how they deal with us ,but i assume this will be personnel but since you started this ,you probably have a mil background and always did what was told so i will ignore your limited knowledge

@volatile ,

First they paved the way way for our enemy to get the M2K in the first place in the 80's----then they paved the way for them to get the Rafale in the 21st century as well.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's that they squandered----they could have bought 42 Rafales and put 250 million dollars in fixed account---and the INTEREST would have covered the maintenance cost----.

Or they could have gotten 36 Rafales and put 1/2 billion dollars in fixed account---and the interest would have been more than enough to solve the problems.

Even 30 rafales would have made a tremendous difference---because then you would have had Tier one avionics for your JF17's---.

And then---why would you need the F16 BLK 52's when your own equipment the JF17 with french avionics and missiles is superior to that.

Thanks for making my point . Larger pic suggested we would have even acquired Sagem Engine for thunder not trying to speculate but we could have great number of options .Precisely f17 with French avionics would have surpassed anything in IAF inventory today ,with 36 + Rafale ,100 + F17 and 76 F16 ,PAF looked great force to reckon with ,Imagine Mirage 2000 were also from the same country instead now we will be fighting the same

 

[New World]

If I remember correctly Rafale being offered at that time was with RBE PESA radar. Also I do not think PAF was ever interested in purchasing Rafale at all, it was only interested in a few subsystems but French were trying to push through Rafale. Which was a bad deal for many reasons.

- It would have cost a lot, not just cost of aircrafts but also servicing them required long term contracts resulting much more than 5-6 billion dollars.

- In case of a war, sanctions will be done deal and with servicing also requiring a heavy french contingent, the whole fighter fleet will start fiddling fingers on tarmac in few days with not even having the ability to cannibalise some to keep others flying.

- It would have practically resulted in freeze on all other projects especially JF-17, there wasn't even money for Rafale deal what to talk about a 200 plus extremely expensive avionics deal for JF-17.

- It would have practically stinted the whole fleet with grave consequences even upto present times. We would certainly had a couple of squadrons of Rafales which PDF guys can than debate to oblivion between pakistani and indian members. But the remaining fleet would have been left with an eye watering level of obsolescence. Old F16A fighters which at best can fire almost expired sparrows, mirages running out of life and F7s to zip around in air.

- Any chances of acquiring AIM-120 out of window.

- Any chances of upgrading F-16s out of window.

- Any chances of being able to integrate any other weapons especially Chinese origin with even any remaining and decaying JF-17 prototypes, out of window.

- About 30 odd Rafales to fly around in and do chest thumping in front of 240+ Su-30s with tiny and untested MICAs with a miserable 50+ km range.

What a bloody nightmare, thanks to Allah we were much saner and decided to take the better route.

- Decided to upgrade F-16 fleet up to block 50+ standard and added a few and resulted in 70+ fighters with very decent AIM-120-C5 which were the best US were ready to part with, better than the competition.

- Resulted in 60+ JF-17s and still counting which are no slouches either in radar range or in BVR combat or in WVR combat. With lot of freedom to integrate what you can get you hand on and chances of getting even better with planned future upgrades.

very very lolx at your analysis...
this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..
and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..
if rafale was selected instead of F-16, right now we were not discussing to counter rafale..
AIM-120-C5 can be integrated in rafale along with mlued F-16..
there will be not any hurdle for subsystem for F-17 and there will be similarity in subsystems between F-17 rafale, which will eventually reduced the maintenance hurdle for them...
and sale of F-17 will not be any issue because france will be the partner with F-17, and they have more influence in MENA region... where most of the countries operate Mirages and F-17 would be their replacement...
there is not any such issue with Mica, and in Pak-Ind war scenario, there is not any much need for Long Range AAM..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

The chinese focus is on the development of J20---once that programs gets into deployment stage--the J31 will move forward---because the the resource from the J20 will be used on the J31.

Someone will have to make the decision for the paf-----.

Sir,
If the Chinese are not going to fund the J-31 till J-20 is deployed then PAF can not do much because she would find herself once again in the shoes of JF-17. PAF can not afford to pay all alone for both these aircraft unless it decides to manufacture them in 1000's of aircraft.

If PAF can not get involved in this then it should try to find an alternate which can be the TFX and that is still not in sight. The only option remaining is to get more JF-17's and find some engineers who would help PAF in building her own fifth generation fighter aircraft, steps have been taken in this regards.

Induction of J-10 and operation cost for the next 20 years would cost PAF about 10-15 billion USD. For this amount Pakistan can easily build her self enough JF-17 and also work on a Fifth Gen aircraft.

If you remember the Canadian CF-105 ARROW project.

Where the Canadians cancelled their aircraft to get older aircraft and till date they were bound to procure fighter aircraft from other countries.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
If the Chinese are not going to fund the J-31 till J-20 is deployed then PAF can not do much because she would find herself once again in the shoes of JF-17. PAF can not afford to pay all alone for both these aircraft unless it decides to manufacture them in 1000's of aircraft.

If PAF can not get involved in this then it should try to find an alternate which can be the TFX and that is still not in sight. The only option remaining is to get more JF-17's and find some engineers who would help PAF in building her own fifth generation fighter aircraft, steps have been taken in this regards.

Induction of J-10 and operation cost for the next 20 years would cost PAF about 10-15 billion USD. For this amount Pakistan can easily build her self enough JF-17 and also work on a Fifth Gen aircraft.

If you remember the Canadian CF-105 ARROW project.

Where the Canadians cancelled their aircraft to get older aircraft and till date they were bound to procure fighter aircraft from other countries.

Hi,

Why don't you suggest the K8's then---they are cheaper---and you can about a 500 of them---maybe some more F7pg----or older mirage---.

very very lolx at your analysis...
this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..
and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..
if rafale was selected instead of F-16, right now we were not discussing to counter rafale..
AIM-120-C5 can be integrated in rafale along with mlued F-16..
there will be not any hurdle for subsystem for F-17 and there will be similarity in subsystems between F-17 rafale, which will eventually reduced the maintenance hurdle for them...
and sale of F-17 will not be any issue because france will be the partner with F-17, and they have more influence in MENA region... where most of the countries operate Mirages and F-17 would be their replacement...
there is not any such issue with Mica, and in Pak-Ind war scenario, there is not any much need for Long Range AAM..

Hi,

That is why I say that fighter pilots should not make deals--it needs to be left to car salesmen----.

The purchase of Rafale should have been taken as a tactical and strategic decision---meaning to cutoff india from getting this aircraft---and also opening the window to procure avionics for the coming JF17's---give & take.

You give some to take more----. That is what really pissed off the French---. Their aircraft manufacturing industry is headed for DOOM---because of no sales of the Rafale----and who is the primary buyer at that time---PAF---the French had high hopes tied with that 5 Billion dollar deal.

The french could not believe that the paf deceived pakistan one more time---and went for the F16---the French were shell shocked at the rejection---no one with any sanity left thought that the paf will go for any more F16's----.

But then Pakistan Air Force---&---Sanity---that is an OXYMORON.