J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

Why don't you suggest the K8's then---they are cheaper---and you can about a 500 of them---maybe some more F7pg----or older mirage---.

Sir, you yourself have been advocating that PAF should have a 4 th gen aircraft, Then only a fifth gen aircraft would be as lethal as it should be. Now you are saying PAF should be advised F-7's K-8's and Mirage 3/5...

Sir JF-17 should be continued till we have around 400 aircraft and in the same time find solutions to get 5th gen aircraft either a local project using great minds from around the world and the technologies that are available in the market or get involved in JV with some one who is willing to provide us all the technology.

The F-16 's are no threat fine... PAF is on the strategy on areal deniability this can be done by the JF-17 and SAMS.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, you yourself have been advocating that PAF should have a 4 th gen aircraft, Then only a fifth gen aircraft would be as lethal as it should be. Now you are saying PAF should be advised F-7's K-8's and Mirage 3/5...

Sir JF-17 should be continued till we have around 400 aircraft and in the same time find solutions to get 5th gen aircraft either a local project using great minds from around the world and the technologies that are available in the market or get involved in JV with some one who is willing to provide us all the technology.

The F-16 's are no threat fine... PAF is on the strategy on areal deniability this can be done by the JF-17 and SAMS.

Sir,

That was a sarcastic comment to your post where you recommended a lower tier aircraft fulfill the needs of a higher tier aircraft.

You may have a 1000 JF17 and they would mean nothing---because of standoff weapons---the enemy can destroy your bases without any repursussions---.

You have to have heavies that can reach in and do the damage and spread the enemy defenses out.

 

[New World]

That is why I say that fighter pilots should not make deals--it needs to be left to car salesmen----.

and why it needs to be left for car salesmen?

The purchase of Rafale should have been taken as a tactical and strategic decision---meaning to cutoff india from getting this aircraft---and also opening the window to procure avionics for the coming JF17's---give & take.

rafale purchase would have let only 3 options for india to buy MMRCA jet.. EFT, F/A-18 and Gripen..
EFT was too much expensive and it is hard to convince 4 countries to do anything to jets everytime..
Gripen is light-weight and Iaf needs jet which should be from medium category but should be near to heavy-weight, so as same Gripen is out...
F/A-18 was to be left for india....
and right now we won't be talking to counter rafale and F-18 will not be any issue for paf..
not only paf did blunders but PN also did blunders by rejecting scorpion sub in favor of type 214 sub and the irony is that neither of them arrives in pak, and 12 years were wasted just for visits...

The french could not believe that the paf deceived pakistan one more time---and went for the F16---the French were shell shocked at the rejection---no one with any sanity left thought that the paf will go for any more F16's----.

not only french were in shock but everyone was in shock that, what the hell they are doing, did they forget that very same aircrafts were grounded because of spares shortage caused by sanctions..

 

[MastanKhan]

and why it needs to be left for car salesmen?


rafale purchase would have let only 3 options for india to buy MMRCA jet.. EFT, F/A-18 and Gripen..
EFT was too much expensive and it is hard to convince 4 countries to do anything to jets everytime..
Gripen is light-weight and Iaf needs jet which should be from medium category but should be near to heavy-weight, so as same Gripen is out...
F/A-18 was to be left for india....
and right now we won't be talking to counter rafale and F-18 will not be any issue for paf..
not only paf did blunders but PN also did blunders by rejecting scorpion sub in favor of type 214 sub and the irony is that neither of them arrives in pak, and 12 years were wasted just for visits...



not only french were in shock but everyone was in shock that, what the hell they are doing, did they forget that very same aircrafts were grounded because of spares shortage caused by sanctions..

Hi,

Car sales people mean deal makers---people who can see the situation---think on their feet---find the golden nugget---own it and run with it.

Thank you for bringing up the submarine deal as well---. That was more shocking---here you have TOT of French systems----you have the most advanced sub in the region---you have one of the most proven sub in the region and yet you are falling for the German sub.

The reason for the TOT was to move ahead with the French systems for the future---not to dump them.

Our colleague Ghazi786 seems to be a fighter jock---and we appreciate his presence---.

I can guarantee you---if the chinese aircraft were forced on the paf---they would make the paf believer in the JH7B / J10C's---.

After the 2nd world war---for the israelis to consolidate their positions---they found all the junk weapons in europe and paid exorbitant prices and made excellent use of it---because their backs were to the sea---do or die---.

 

[ghazi768]

This thread is getting distracted from its topic but lets have one more go.

Who will decide about what best to purchase for PAF.. used car sales men. And pilot should go on a rampage against idiocies and insane decisions of used car sales men and start evangelising about which cars are best to purchase..

I know one guy is on some kind of personal crusade on this forum and amazingly his knowledge about flying or tactics or technology involved is abysmal. He does not eve know about trimming but profess expertise in purchasing advanced jet.. face palm..

These arguments,rumours of PAF giving up on it because of earthquake is nonsense.

PAF was never interested in Rafale.full stop.
Go have whatever about the raves you had about what ever shining toy you wanted to see in PAF colors but that is the hard truth.

 

[Imad.Khan]

Hi,

Car sales people mean deal makers---people who can see the situation---think on their feet---find the golden nugget---own it and run with it.

Thank you for bringing up the submarine deal as well---. That was more shocking---here you have TOT of French systems----you have the most advanced sub in the region---you have one of the most proven sub in the region and yet you are falling for the German sub.

The reason for the TOT was to move ahead with the French systems for the future---not to dump them.

Our colleague Ghazi786 seems to be a fighter jock---and we appreciate his presence---.

I can guarantee you---if the chinese aircraft were forced on the paf---they would make the paf believer in the JH7B / J10C's---.

After the 2nd world war---for the israelis to consolidate their positions---they found all the junk weapons in europe and paid exorbitant prices and made excellent use of it---because their backs were to the sea---do or die---.

I always enjoy your comments,

If i remember right, the German Sub 214 was considered the best AIP submarine at that time. it was better than scorpion subs, and if i remember right, it was the Germans that blocked the sale to Pak. Let me know if my memory is correct?

Also whats done in the past, is in the past. What do you think should be the move forward for PAF?

 

[ghazi768]

very very lolx at your analysis...
this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..
and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..
if rafale was selected instead of F-16, right now we were not discussing to counter rafale..
AIM-120-C5 can be integrated in rafale along with mlued F-16..
there will be not any hurdle for subsystem for F-17 and there will be similarity in subsystems between F-17 rafale, which will eventually reduced the maintenance hurdle for them...
and sale of F-17 will not be any issue because france will be the partner with F-17, and they have more influence in MENA region... where most of the countries operate Mirages and F-17 would be their replacement...
there is not any such issue with Mica, and in Pak-Ind war scenario, there is not any much need for Long Range AAM..

My apologies to differ with you.

this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..

This is not true. I suspect that most guys here read some lists on internet about top fighter or go read some stuff on marketing sites of these fighters, or may be view few YouTube videos and than start having some opinion or a sort of a rave on some fighter.
This is not the case, First fighter platforms are part of a big system which needs to work all together, operations and tactics all get streamlined according to the whole system. the picture is far more complicated than looking at two different jet fighters on one on one.

But even than give me some solid reasons why an F-16 bulk 52+ will not be able to counter a Rafale whether on one to one or in team fight in BVR or WVR and than we can discuss this further.

and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..

It is not about having some love affair with F-16s, this is just misinformation spread around. It was a cold and hard decision. Give me a reason why you think it was a love affair.

AIM-120-C5 can be integrated in rafale along with mlued F-16..

But why, why US will give us AIM-120s, will china be ready to export one of their best AAMs to another country without a fighter platform even if we request them to do so?
These things do not work like this, IAF is now getting Rafales let us see if they can also get AIM-120s without buying a US fighter platform.

there will be not any hurdle for subsystem for F-17 and there will be similarity in subsystems between F-17 rafale, which will eventually reduced the maintenance hurdle for them...

Why not? you never explained this.
Basically french balked at allowing Chinese near their systems. First hurdle will be that if you are going to use mission control system with chinese assistance than how will you persuade french to allow them access to their radar and spectra's subsystems to help us integrate it into JF-17. On the other hand if we just give up to having source code for mission control systems and subsystems than we also give up any chance to integrate chinese systems and weapons. Also we'll always be beholden to French when ever we need to integrate anything in Jf-17 avionics or even modify it. It will practically be an 'indigenous' fighter only in name, nothing more.

and sale of F-17 will not be any issue because france will be the partner with F-17, and they have more influence in MENA region... where most of the countries operate Mirages and F-17 would be their replacement...

No, I do not agree with this, this is just wishful thinking. Why would french allow a much cheaper jet to have same avionics as their own and very expensive jet. This would have lynched any chances of sales of Rafale. If you can remember, Rafale was in the works in late 90s and I think started getting inducted by 2002 in France but had lot of trouble finding sales and did this in from I think 2015 onward.

there is not any such issue with Mica, and in Pak-Ind war scenario, there is not any much need for Long Range AAM
Why? why there is not an issue with its range. Although I do know very well about Ropt,Rtr,Rmin ranges of atlas our systems or competing ones but give me a solid reason in terms of figures or if you have a new doctrine about BVR than please elaborate.

 

[The Diplomat]

I know changing platforms or introducing a new platform from the base up is not an easy task. The air force has to be willing to put a lot of man hours and money into the project but what is the current plan?
US rejected to sell F-16's to us on a affordable price and later pulled out of the deal. We have JF-17's that are not as advanced as the F-16's we have.
Soon we will be retiring our F-7PG's.
Personally I think it is time for a new platform and this time away from the US manufactured aircraft because of the following:
- Advanced aircraft (the type we are looking for) are too advanced and that makes it very expensive.
- If relations deteriorate they might stop the sale of spare parts and cancel current orders placed.

Personally I though we had placed orders for J-10 in 2012 or 2013?

What platform do you think we should go for or should we continue with the current and buy used F-16's?

 

[New World]

Car sales people mean deal makers---people who can see the situation---think on their feet---find the golden nugget---own it and run with it.

sir, i will second you on car salesmen but only for sales of JF-17 and other products, as we have already seen a car dealer is in the sales of F-17 to SL..
but for purchase we need typical old minded man who can bargain until he gets what he want to at his own conditions..

here you have TOT of French systems----you have the most advanced sub in the region---you have one of the most proven sub in the region and yet you are falling for the German sub.

and after 2-3 year when Germans got to know that PN just fooling her nation on subs deal.. they show middle finger to PN and said get lost we don't have time to waste..

Our colleague Ghazi786 seems to be a fighter jock---and we appreciate his presence---.

difference is good for positive growth..

After the 2nd world war---for the israelis to consolidate their positions---they found all the junk weapons in europe and paid exorbitant prices and made excellent use of it---because their backs were to the sea---do or die---.

there is the difference between Israelis and Pakistanis, israelis migrated from all over world to israel, so they have only one option-- do --or-- die..
but Pakistanis(high ranks) migrated to all over the world from Pakistan and actually they also have only one option --- collect as many as you can to migrate-- or -- you have to live in Pakistan..

But even than give me some solid reasons why an F-16 bulk 52+ will not be able to counter a Rafale whether on one to one or in team fight in BVR or WVR and than we can discuss this further.

F-16 has been prohibited by its creature to go to east, if it went ahead without it's creatures will, F-16 will die..

It is not about having some love affair with F-16s, this is just misinformation spread around. It was a cold and hard decision. Give me a reason why you think it was a love affair.

a sane person will never repeat his same mistake which has almost kill him... but... but.. but.
Lover will repeat his mistakes until he gets his love or die..
there is a saying in Sindhi for the lover.."ashiq majboor aa bhaly kedo be kandhar hujy" in english "Romeo is helpless even though he is powerful".

But why, why US will give us AIM-120s, will china be ready to export one of their best AAMs to another country without a fighter platform even if we request them to do so?
These things do not work like this, IAF is now getting Rafales let us see if they can also get AIM-120s without buying a US fighter platform.

i think you should have to read again my comment.. i clearly say with MLUed = upgraded F-16..

Basically french balked at allowing Chinese near their systems. First hurdle will be that if you are going to use mission control system with chinese assistance than how will you persuade french to allow them access to their radar and spectra's subsystems to help us integrate it into JF-17. On the other hand if we just give up to having source code for mission control systems and subsystems than we also give up any chance to integrate chinese systems and weapons. Also we'll always be beholden to French when ever we need to integrate anything in Jf-17 avionics or even modify it. It will practically be an 'indigenous' fighter only in name, nothing more.

i think you don;t know that French were happy to sell their radars and missiles for F-17 but MMRCA did her magic..
and as for French and chinese cooperation, Airbus is making her helicopter in china , and there are lots of JV between French companies and Chinese companies...

No, I do not agree with this, this is just wishful thinking. Why would french allow a much cheaper jet to have same avionics as their own and very expensive jet. This would have lynched any chances of sales of Rafale. If you can remember, Rafale was in the works in late 90s and I think started getting inducted by 2002 in France but had lot of trouble finding sales and did this in from I think 2015 onward.

F-17 and rafale are from different categories. F-17 is light-weight and is used for interception and air defence.. but rafale is medium-weight and is very near to heavy-weight and is used for SEAD, DEAD, deep-strike, etc. there is not any comparing between them.. ..
rafale had hard time because at initial years, from 2002-2007 most countries in MENA has already ordered for F-16 because of WoT..and then global recession comes in 2008 and from 2010 to 2013 whole MENA region was struggling with Arab Spring.uprising...
almost every country in MENA region still 3rd gen fighter and they are more than 30+ years old and that needs replacements.. French are businessmen they won;t mind because they would be earning money on radars and weapons from F-17 sales..

Why? why there is not an issue with its range. Although I do know very well about Ropt,Rtr,Rmin ranges of atlas our systems or competing ones but give me a solid reason in terms of figures or if you have a new doctrine about BVR than please elaborate.

if i'm not wrong mica has range of 50+km and that is more than ok for indo-pak war scenario...

 

[MastanKhan]

My apologies to differ with you.

this is the very same rafale which we reject 10 years ago, now we are searching to other jets to counter it, because our F-16 blk52 are not going to counter it..

This is not true. I suspect that most guys here read some lists on internet about top fighter or go read some stuff on marketing sites of these fighters, or may be view few YouTube videos and than start having some opinion or a sort of a rave on some fighter.
This is not the case, First fighter platforms are part of a big system which needs to work all together, operations and tactics all get streamlined according to the whole system. the picture is far more complicated than looking at two different jet fighters on one on one.

But even than give me some solid reasons why an F-16 bulk 52+ will not be able to counter a Rafale whether on one to one or in team fight in BVR or WVR and than we can discuss this further.

and choosing F-16 in 2005 was not a strategic decision but it was a love affair..

It is not about having some love affair with F-16s, this is just misinformation spread around. It was a cold and hard decision. Give me a reason why you think it was a love affair.

Hi,

It is a misleading statement----. After 9/11---Paf assessed that there is not going to be any war or hostilities with India anymore----. So they decided not to buy any fighter aircraft.

That is why there was the drama of testing the Grippen and the rafale---because paf had already decided that for a WHITEWASH---they will have a smaller potent aircraft---the JF17--and everyone will be happy.

After they had blown all the money on the earthquake---( the money that was meant for the defense of pakistan---) they found out----that India is still hostile and the reason for war is stronger. Now---that they have given all the money away---and the enemy is still there---paf has loose motions now---so in desperation and not 'cold hearted' decision it went for the f16's---because by that time---Rafale was gone.

Paf is was so stupid---that it fell for the Indian ruse---. India knew that paf would get aircraft after the sanctions came off----that why the peace drama was started and pushed hard thru all meansand they snared Paf into that web.

 

[barbarosa]

When we look at the face full countries of the world such as Switzerland Denmark etc they have strong air forces while they have no threat with any country. We have an enemy in our neighbor why PAF negligence during that time.Enemy always waiting for time,PAF should learn.

 

[Syed Hussain]

After they had blown all the money on the earthquake

Hi,
Sir can you be more specific? I have never came across any such information, which earthquake and how much?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,
Sir can you be more specific? I have never came across any such information, which earthquake and how much?

Hi,

The order was for I believe 72 F16's---and the earthquake was in 2005---and the air chief later admitted to giving the money for the relief work----this is on record---.

The issue here is all about the delay from the date the sanctions came off to the date of the earthquake---.

The earthquake happened on 8th oct 2005---so from the date they got the call from the U S for alliance against WOT----it becomes 4 years---- from sept 11th 2001---oct 8th 2005---the call might have gone in a day or two later.

That is what my beef is---4 years---that is where the Paf became deceitful and treasonous to the nation of pakistan---.

They were given full access to the Gripen---they were given full access to the Rafale---they were given full access to the F16 BLK 52's---if you don't have funds and the resource to pay for them---they just let you look at them and no more---.

 

[volatile]

It is not about having some love affair with F-16s, this is just misinformation spread around. It was a cold and hard decision. Give me a reason why you think it was a love affair.

Care to explain what hold and cold decisions criteria it was .Gripen we understood too many foreign parts but Rafale rejection why .Ok on papers F16 for example was so good why we are looking for something to counter .Ok I agree with you F16 for a min is better then Rafale but my friend where are the F16 wait they are blocked congrats what a strategy .In finance and in business and similarly for any principle you dont put all your eggs in a single basket .F16 are potent but we are not Israel . We should have learned the lesson while we can 65/71/90/2015 history repeating it self

Hard to get ,sanctioned prone ,in time of war No wonder what will happened .

 

[ghazi768]

72 brand new F16s!
rumours, hearsay and nonsense you have to throw..nothing more

Care to explain what hold and cold decisions criteria it was .Gripen we understood too many foreign parts but Rafale rejection why .Ok on papers F16 for example was so good why we are looking for something to counter .Ok I agree with you F16 for a min is better then Rafale but my friend where are the F16 wait they are blocked congrats what a strategy .In finance and in business and similarly for any principle you dont put all your eggs in a single basket .F16 are potent but we are not Israel . We should have learned the lesson while we can 65/71/90/2015 history repeating it self

Hard to get ,sanctioned prone ,in time of war No wonder what will happened .

Gripen was not just about spare parts.
Case of south african airforce as point, bought I think 26 original Gripens, got fed up with very expensive service contract with Saab, decided to do it themselves, now they have put all of these in storage after just trying to keep about 8 in air.
A friend once joked that europeans have converted their jets into trojan horses, you let one in and out comes a legion of service personnel.
How are european less likely to impose sanctions during a war, historically they have imposed sanctions as fast as US, this is the lessons we learnt from 65/71, german even during peacetime keep showing moods, why should it be different in next war? in case of F-16 we can keep servicing it on our own and may have backdoor supply channels in case of war as well.. less said the better.

Now the real question is why do you consider Rafale better than F-16, I am hoping for intelligent answers or questions. Please avoid gibberish like kill switches or F-16 unable to fly towards east etc.

How are we ending up putting eggs in one basket?
We have F-16s, for which we have a strategy to fight off sanctions.
We have Mirages, which will keep getting cannibalised until retirement but independent of any influence.
F7s, no chance of supply issues even if war start now.
JF-17s which are also free from any sanctions issues and will replace most of F-7s and some of Mirages.

How inducting Gripen, Rafale or EF will lessen the chances of sanctions?
They are not only highly sanctions prone but also even servicing them requires relying heavily on their manufacturers and their availability (because of problems servicing them on our own) in case of war will go down the drain very quickly.