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J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

American Superiority Complex? There is no complex, we are holding this globe down and we run this shiit :lol: :enjoy:. But you also see the American superiority? We shared our wealth with China, India, the Europeans, etc? We shared our defense equipment with a ton of countries to strengthen their defenses. We build schools, colleges, comes help the Pakistanis in their dark hour when the Earthquakes strike? We don't have any superiority complex, just if you didn't know, the American nation donates the MOST out of any other nation on the planet.

How many other countries including India, Pakistan, China, KSA, etc, etc, can show me a thriving minority inside of them that consists of Africans, Chinese, their internal minorities like Muslims and Sikhs in India, etc, etc??

God gave us the command for the mother land (planet Earth) for a reason. We give and help everyone. Almost everyone persecuted from their countries, wanting peaceful life and safety, somehow lands in America. It was the American greatness that brought Capt. Late, Khan's parents to the US, resulting in them producing a fine young man who would one day lead with example and will lay his life down for the love and safety for his country :usflag: (while being from minority). Don't tell me we have superiority complex. Ask our citizens and residents, including Pakistani-Americans (or Chinese Americans for that matter). The truth will hurt you for sure!!
stay on the topic you stupid, don't overestimate yourself:hitwall::blah: i am just asking to you that why you beleive that China just steal, copy and paste and does not invent and innovate something new?
 
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Hi,

The questions needs to be asked is---what the heck is the pilot going to do after doing 11G's---.

And in what format will an aircraft with a battle load do 11 G's----. If 11G's was possible---it would be with clean configuration---minimal fuel---and not external tanks---if it was ever---.

The term 11 G's is that the structure may take 11 G's---.

Thanks, you elaborated it very well. Also most AG munitions do not only have g limits but also speed limits at which they can be safely droped.
 
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stay on the topic you stupid, don't overestimate yourself:hitwall::blah: i am just asking to you that why you beleive that China just steal, copy and paste and does not invent and innovate something new?

I don't "believe" China just steals and copies. Their industry and products and history will tell you that. Thee Russians aren't giving them their new SU-35 even with full cash offer to cash starved Russia...why? because they don't want the Chinese to do what they did with their SU-27 (Chinese J-11)!!! From Cars to Jets to Space stuff, everything is copied. Everyone knows it.

And why is it? At this point, the creativity only comes from the US and some other Western countries and spreads throughout the globe. But someone buying innovative products and someone just stealing them are two different things.
 
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I don't "believe" China just steals and copies. Their industry and products and history will tell you that. Thee Russians aren't giving them their new SU-35 even with full cash offer to cash starved Russia...why? because they don't want the Chinese to do what they did with their SU-27 (Chinese J-11)!!! From Cars to Jets to Space stuff, everything is copied. Everyone knows it.

And why is it? At this point, the creativity only comes from the US and some other Western countries and spreads throughout the globe. But someone buying innovative products and someone just stealing them are two different things.

lol.
So you think thats a bad thing?
Did you forget where china was decades ago?
If they did things themselves it'd take half a century for them to get to pace.
and by then, they'd be ruined by the likes of "warmongers" if you know what i mean.

So from their point.
I find it a very feasible and very clever way to catch up with the world.
They simply go the pay to win way for experience and knowledge ;)
 
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We are not looking for j10 in the long run fc 31 is our main goal which we will induct by 2020

Believe it or not, when you wrote the above post, it was true. It has changed since yesterday (the Pentagon stopping the military aid). So as of yesterday, the J-10C or D variant (with miniaturized J-31 tech) is on the cards again. I won't be surprised if a contract to purchase 36-40 is signed very soon, in the next few months.

The quantity would be a 36-40 (stop gap) to supplement the -16's to last, till either J-31's are procured. A JFT stealth-optimized variant is also on the cards, the JFT block IV.


lol.
So you think thats a bad thing? Did you forget where china was decades ago?

Yes, its a bad thing. In fact, its a terrible, terrible thing. You won't understand because sadly speaking, Pakistan doesn't really have creativity and trademarks for anything. When you have an internal industry and a few Pakistani companies spent $ 1 trillion on building multiple new technologies. And let's say, I stole those from your computers so we can build them in the US or Mexico, that's considered a global theft and it is a violation of international copy right laws, as it gives unfair advantage to thieves, vs. the people who spent years in research to come up with something.

I don't think any of the above will make sense to you. So instead of silly posting back and forth, I won't respond to your next post.
 
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Pakistan doesn't really have creativity and trademarks for anything
What do you said..??
I think you don't know the most creative things in the world are from Asia and Pakistan is the Land of most creative persons..
 
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Russia has never transferred any stealth technology to China to assist it with its J-20 Black Eagle fifth-generation stealth fighter prototype, Russian plane maker MiG said on Friday.
Do you really think that some one will admit to news channel to this criticalities ,Please dont mind i am not taking credit from Chinese (they are our brothers and we are very happy for them since they developed some thing) but on the side note you cant ignore the fact Russian ,ISraeli ,UK companies collaboration in Chinese Aviation specially after 1990`s .
 
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Do you really think that some one will admit to news channel to this criticalities ,Please dont mind i am not taking credit from Chinese (they are our brothers and we are very happy for them since they developed some thing) but on the side note you cant ignore the fact Russian ,ISraeli ,UK companies collaboration in Chinese Aviation specially after 1990`s .
I think its more of you can't accept the rise of Chinese technology? China has very powerful world class wind tunnel and world fastest supercomputer. By modelling a mock up prototype based on general data available(like dimension and shape) , couple with our supercomputer managing data. China can quickly obtain large number of aerodynamic data to help us decide what is the best aerodynamic shape and design for China aviation. We dont even need to steal or ask other for helps.

Even Israel and Russian do not have supercomputer as powerful as ours. They are not able to obtain the advance aerodynamic we have. You do not realise how important supercomputer is? There is a reason why China pour huge amount of money into supercomputer which can help design space rocket, minature nuclear MIRV and big passenger airplane.

Chinese_J-10_Fighter_With_Conformal_Fuel_Tanks_CFT_.jpg


http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-05/26/content_25476137.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...-fastest-supercomputer-without-u-s-chips.html

Super computer is like a silver bullet for advance technology.
 
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I think its more of you can't accept the rise of Chinese technology? China has very powerful world class wind tunnel and world fastest supercomputer. By modelling a mock up prototype based on general data available(like dimension and shape) , couple with our supercomputer managing data. China can quickly obtain large number of aerodynamic data to help us decide what is the best aerodynamic shape and design for China aviation. We dont even need to steal or ask other for helps.

Even Israel and Russian do not have supercomputer as powerful as ours. They are not able to obtain the advance aerodynamic we have. You do not realise how important supercomputer is? There is a reason why China pour huge amount of money into supercomputer which can help design space rocket, minature nuclear MIRV and big passenger airplane.

http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/...s/ChineseAerospaceIndustryDiscussionPaper.pdf

Reverse engineering, the usual way to fill in technology gaps, has its limits where engine development is concerned. China’s historical links to the Russian aerospace industry would not have helped much either — engines are also a Russian relative weakness. Collaboration with Israel has also helped Chinese fighter development.12 Other limitations are in Chinese military transport capability, where the armed forces are still dependent on Russian or Ukrainian equipment. A domestic product, the four-engined Y-20, equivalent to the US C-17, flew last year but series production is some way off. The Y-9, equivalent to the US C-130, was a co-development with the Ukrainian company Antonov, with indigenous turboprop engines. Antonov is also involved in Y-20 development. Domestic helicopter designs are also based on Russian or western types. China still relies on Russian built air defence missiles.

This is a nice read paper Cheers ! money pouring is the first step and its fruits are time dependent ,the argument is not for 2025 + but 1990 to till date .
 
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http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/...s/ChineseAerospaceIndustryDiscussionPaper.pdf

Reverse engineering, the usual way to fill in technology gaps, has its limits where engine development is concerned. China’s historical links to the Russian aerospace industry would not have helped much either — engines are also a Russian relative weakness. Collaboration with Israel has also helped Chinese fighter development.12 Other limitations are in Chinese military transport capability, where the armed forces are still dependent on Russian or Ukrainian equipment. A domestic product, the four-engined Y-20, equivalent to the US C-17, flew last year but series production is some way off. The Y-9, equivalent to the US C-130, was a co-development with the Ukrainian company Antonov, with indigenous turboprop engines. Antonov is also involved in Y-20 development. Domestic helicopter designs are also based on Russian or western types. China still relies on Russian built air defence missiles.

This is a nice read paper Cheers ! money pouring is the first step and its fruits are time dependent ,the argument is not for 2025 + but 1990 to till date .

You using an western publication to try judge real China aviation development? Seriously how much do these western reports know? I bet most who wrote those report hardly understand a word of Chinese. And I think I do not need to remind you the amount of negative news about China generate by the western which some simply rubbish to level of slandering. It laughable you can depend on those news as genuine?

Then maybe I can start to believe those western news report of Pakistan supporting terrorist activities worldwide or ISI involve in harboring of osama bin laden?
 
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I think its more of you can't accept the rise of Chinese technology? China has very powerful world class wind tunnel and world fastest supercomputer. By modelling a mock up prototype based on general data available(like dimension and shape) , couple with our supercomputer managing data. China can quickly obtain large number of aerodynamic data to help us decide what is the best aerodynamic shape and design for China aviation. We dont even need to steal or ask other for helps.

Even Israel and Russian do not have supercomputer as powerful as ours. They are not able to obtain the advance aerodynamic we have. You do not realise how important supercomputer is? There is a reason why China pour huge amount of money into supercomputer which can help design space rocket, minature nuclear MIRV and big passenger airplane.

View attachment 323976

http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-05/26/content_25476137.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...-fastest-supercomputer-without-u-s-chips.html

Super computer is like a silver bullet for advance technology.
This plane is a good alternate for F 16,s but two new platforms(j 31 being our target) will be very expensive to induct over the long run
Though this plane in many cases is superior to f 16
 
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J-10 vs F-16 Technical Comparison




The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day.
TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived).

The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines.

The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles.

BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
 
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What do you said..??
I think you don't know the most creative things in the world are from Asia and Pakistan is the Land of most creative persons..


Care to show me your Trade mark details for such "creative things"? Having a trade mark would be great.
 
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Believe it or not, when you wrote the above post, it was true. It has changed since yesterday (the Pentagon stopping the military aid). So as of yesterday, the J-10C or D variant (with miniaturized J-31 tech) is on the cards again. I won't be surprised if a contract to purchase 36-40 is signed very soon, in the next few months.

The quantity would be a 36-40 (stop gap) to supplement the -16's to last, till either J-31's are procured. A JFT stealth-optimized variant is also on the cards, the JFT block IV.




Yes, its a bad thing. In fact, its a terrible, terrible thing. You won't understand because sadly speaking, Pakistan doesn't really have creativity and trademarks for anything. When you have an internal industry and a few Pakistani companies spent $ 1 trillion on building multiple new technologies. And let's say, I stole those from your computers so we can build them in the US or Mexico, that's considered a global theft and it is a violation of international copy right laws, as it gives unfair advantage to thieves, vs. the people who spent years in research to come up with something.

I don't think any of the above will make sense to you. So instead of silly posting back and forth, I won't respond to your next post.

What you're saying is.
Whatever one make should not be used for the beneficial for the rest of humanity, giving unfair advantage to one side while leaving the other in the dark.

GOT IT!
 
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J-10 vs F-16 Technical Comparison




The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day.
TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived).

The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines.

The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles.

BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
The author is blind to the fact that even the BVR combat is not a one time afair.J-10 may make a one time instantaneous dash like mirage, but in the process would drain enormous amount of energy and may very likely not have left juice enough for sustained combat.
Israeli Mirages owned Arab aircrafts not in horizontal turnning fights but in vertical fights where Mirages outperformed the Arab aircrafts due to superior climb rates (MIG 21 was a different story for which IAF purposefully trained).
Once the J10 makes such tight turns, it decends to subsonic realm where the canards lose their effectiveness. J-10 can perform better at high speeds than F-16 which can only fly straight but at trans and subsonic realms, J-10 will most likely get owned by the Falcon.
So what I can think of as a strategy is that the J-10 take a BVR shot at supersonic speed and A) Make a run for the home B)Continue to engage the adversary at supersonic speed which means fuel consumption is enormous and thus not sustainable as well.
So either way, I don't see any significant boost J-10 brings to the table vs the Falcons.
 
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