J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[New World]

Supposedly---the millitary has 10 division of Al Khalid Tanks and 10 divisions of T55 tanks----20 divisions all---just an example.

Now here is what the poster is saying---if the 10 divisions of T55 tanks are replaced with 10 divisions more of Al Khalid tanks---and as the do not bring anything new to the table---because we already have 10 divisions of al Khalid tanks---and making them 20 divisions of Al Khalid tanks will have no effect on the power projection---and it will bring nothing new to the table.

this is the scene with PAF. she has F-16 but in small numbers and she does not want to induct another type of jet from same class..

 

[Lucky Breeze]

Powerplant: 1 × Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or WS-10A turbofan

Why two different engines? I think the J10 is suffering with a lack of dedicated engine problem. AL 31 FN is not giving the desired performance thats why they change the engine which leads to change in aircraft design. Perhaps thats one of the reasons PAF rejected J10.
Hope so we can see J10 in green color. Because Super-10 is the only interceptor which can deal with our twin engine phobia. I love PAF but somehow I realize they are an enigma.

 

[araz]

Sir,

All these numbers sound wonderful---. The JF17 is an excellent aircraft on its own merit---there is no doubt about that.

It has its own utility and place---and no one is denying that.

But it will always stay at a lower tier due to its weight class and size.

Secondly---what most people are forgetting is that the production capabilities of the JF17 are limited.

You have aircraft for the use of Paf---and you also want to sell them to other countries as well---and not enough can be built to fill in the hole that the Paf has created for itself.

So---there have to be aircraft that need to be procured to fill up the coming empty spots.

And the most important thing of all---the J10 is china's baby---they will keep investing on it to make it better---so Paf could have just tagged along for the ride---for the JF17---every thing that needs to be done and upgraded will have to be out of the pocket of Paf---.


Where the poster is gettiung confused is the term used over here " it brings nothing new to the table "---.

The question here is---does the poster really understand the term ' nothing new to the table ' and comprehends it as well.

So---let me re-state what the poster is saying in a different manner---.

Supposedly---the millitary has 10 division of Al Khalid Tanks and 10 divisions of T55 tanks----20 divisions all---just an example.

Now here is what the poster is saying---if the 10 divisions of T55 tanks are replaced with 10 divisions more of Al Khalid tanks---and as the do not bring anything new to the table---because we already have 10 divisions of al Khalid tanks---and making them 20 divisions of Al Khalid tanks will have no effect on the power projection---and it will bring nothing new to the table.

View attachment 324568




@hadeer khalid

Hi,

Learn to raise your standards of thinking and reasoning and use better language---rather than getting upset at me and using vulgar comments.

Any debate has parameters and a frame of reference in which one finds a solution. You have not given me a single decent argument in support of your argument. Now I printed this table out just so we could use some tangible data to prove or disprove a point. But as always you have gone on another tangent which is totally irrelevant to the point of the debate. I keep fooling myself again and again that one can have a sane argument with you but it is impossible. So sorry to have wasted your time and I bid you a good day.
A

 

[volatile]

Why two different engines? I think the J10 is suffering with a lack of dedicated engine problem. AL 31 FN is not giving the desired performance thats why they change the engine which leads to change in aircraft design. Perhaps thats one of the reasons PAF rejected J10.
Hope so we can see J10 in green color. Because Super-10 is the only interceptor which can deal with our twin engine phobia. I love PAhF but somehow I realize they are an enigma.

Oh Please there are more than 400 copies active in PLA ,Engine issue is not a big problem considering its the same class as SU series AL-31 which is already massed produced and considering RD 93 experienceone can bet AL series is much more refiner so there are other factors other than engine

 

[araz]

Why two different engines? I think the J10 is suffering with a lack of dedicated engine problem. AL 31 FN is not giving the desired performance thats why they change the engine which leads to change in aircraft design. Perhaps thats one of the reasons PAF rejected J10.
Hope so we can see J10 in green color. Because Super-10 is the only interceptor which can deal with our twin engine phobia. I love PAF but somehow I realize they are an enigma.

Look at the numbers posted again. Albeit old they give you a very clear idea as to why J10 is not upto the mark. Compare numbers and formulate an answer.
Your supposition about AL31 and WS 10 are way off the mark. The ws10 is still in its initial phases. We dont know how it will perform and it may yet be years before we do. The chinese are just beginning to use it in J10 but we need to see how things come along.
A

Oh Please there are more than 400 copies active in PLA ,Engine issue is not a big problem considering its the same class as SU series AL-31 which is already massed produced and considering RD 93 experienceone can bet AL series is much more refiner so there are other factors other than engine

On the contrary it wtill remains the achilles heel of the Cuinese aviation industry. There have been problems with earlier version of Ws10s with serious breakdowns. You need to give things time before you can say that a certain technology has matured. The ws 10 is not quite there.
A

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

this is the scene with PAF. she has F-16 but in small numbers and she does not want to induct another type of jet from same class..

Probably because of limited funding, i kinda feel like paf is stuck with Jf17, it is a potent cost effect platform but not capable as J10, i think they will opt for limited numbers of J31 post 2020. goodday

 

[Lucky Breeze]

so there are other factors other than engine

May be JF 17 3rd block will give us the final answer, why PAF is not going for J 10.

 

[New World]

Probably because of limited funding, i kinda feel like paf is stuck with Jf17, it is a potent cost effect platform but not capable as J10, i think they will opt for limited numbers of J31 post 2020. goodday

there was not any issue of Funding, whenever PAF wants to buy anything they get funds. but the thing is that they don't want to buy anything other than F-16.

 

[MastanKhan]

Any debate has parameters and a frame of reference in which one finds a solution. You have not given me a single decent argument in support of your argument. Now I printed this table out just so we could use some tangible data to prove or disprove a point. But as always you have gone on another tangent which is totally irrelevant to the point of the debate. I keep fooling myself again and again that one can have a sane argument with you but it is impossible. So sorry to have wasted your time and I bid you a good day.
A

@araz

You misunderstood me---I made a statement---I don't debate.

Hiding behind numbers is an old ploy----.

 

[ziaulislam]

@araz

You misunderstood me---I made a statement---I don't debate.

Hiding behind numbers is an old ploy----.

i think there is one think we are forgetting...i will surprised that with current amount funding PAF would be able to even acquire all the thunders and maintain, let alone talking about another plateform

there has to be a change in pak army , navy and air force to become more lean and lethal, pak army has to shed some men, and useless spending

 

[hadeer khalid]

Not sure where you were called "illiterate" ... but I didn't search thoroughly enough ... but my advice to you is not to loose your cool and your dignity in such situations. But all I can do is to offer a suggestion. The rest is up to you.
Like i said i didnt meant to impose my view on him..he can persuade me by using cool words..rather he tried to show himself..and called me ignorant, illiterate.
Well now i am ok with it.thanks for your suggestion..

In all honesty he was actually encouraging you to use your logic and common sense about the fact the J-31 is now a reality and TFX is still on the proverbial drawing board.

Not sure where you were called "illiterate" ... but I didn't search thoroughly enough ... but my advice to you is not to loose your cool and your dignity in such situations. But all I can do is to offer a suggestion. The rest is up to you.

In all honesty he was actually encouraging you to use your logic and common sense about the fact the J-31 is now a reality and TFX is still on the proverbial drawing board.

And also...i didnt said that leave the j31 aside..i was saying we should invest in TFX...because it will have more potential than j31.

 

[MastanKhan]

Any debate has parameters and a frame of reference in which one finds a solution. You have not given me a single decent argument in support of your argument. Now I printed this table out just so we could use some tangible data to prove or disprove a point. But as always you have gone on another tangent which is totally irrelevant to the point of the debate. I keep fooling myself again and again that one can have a sane argument with you but it is impossible. So sorry to have wasted your time and I bid you a good day.
A

Hi,

If all you know are the spec sheets---then you are talking to the wrong person.

Maybe you should ask the U S defence dept to send the spec sheets of their aircraft to china and russia---and maybe india should send the spec sheets of their aircraft to pakistan---and the one without w weaker spec sheet should kow tow to the one with a stronger spec sheet---and all the problems will be solved.

There is no harm is discussing---but when you don't have the understanding---it is better to ask.

 

[DJ_Viper]

How do U know this when other seem don't? Are U an insider or predicting it because of recent development? In any cases, U are disseminating info to Indians as well for them work on Chinese not to sell it. Do U have anything to protest?

What are you saying?? . I've told you before. Let the Pakistanis speak to me about Pakistan. When I give a da-yum about your country, you can debate with me. Thanks!

I think it is useless talking in riddles and conjectures. The reason J10 brings nothing new on to the table lies inb a comparison of the tables of performances. You have to understand that p[eople are projecting J10 as a medium weight long range fighter.The ferry range goes against that supposition.
It has more hardpoints but the belly hardpoints are mostly reserved for dumb bombs of 250 Lbs. So effectively it will end up with as many hardpoints usable for BVR/WVR as JFT.

The last point pertains to the potential weapons which can be mounted on JFT vs the J10.
Now if you want to carry on the debate pleas e do so. lastly figures presented are those of Block 1 of both fighters so if you want to upgrade figures please do so. Regards

The J-10 A (specs you defined) aren't what Pakistan is interested in. Pakistan is interested in the C and D version (D is "classified" as of now, but it has stuff from the J-31, and will be stealth optimized).

The J-10B and then the C versions are built on rules of inter-operational ability, learned from the JFT. These are just software and avionics modifications that tell the KLJ radar to guide an AIM Sidewinder or Piranha to its destination, vs. the Magic-550 copy, the PL-7/8.

Also remember, both the JFT and the F-16 do about Mach 1.6-1.8 (with some weapons on). But for the SU-30's and the Mig-25's, and Mig-29's higher speed,thrust ratio on escort duties, won't be chased away by the F-16's or the JFT's. So you'll need an interceptor for it, high speed, delta winged, wired with 4-6 AAM's. That's the role the J-10C or D would play. The PAF was hoping for the SU-35's so they can be used in multirole ops but its still in talks. While the Chinese will provide the J-10B right away and the J-10C in about a year (J-10D is about 2 years away from mass production).

So consider the J-10's role in the PAF focused on supplementing the F-16's and act as escort and interceptor aircrafts. For strike, the PAF has multiple other options. Including converting the K-8's to light ground attack fighters armed with short range AAM's. More than likely, these will be attacking the Indian columns right at the border or inside the Pakistani borders, so the load-out and the range would work perfect. These can also serve as a point defense fighter too.

 

[araz]

Hi,

If all you know are the spec sheets---then you are talking to the wrong person.

Maybe you should ask the U S defence dept to send the spec sheets of their aircraft to china and russia---and maybe india should send the spec sheets of their aircraft to pakistan---and the one without w weaker spec sheet should kow tow to the one with a stronger spec sheet---and all the problems will be solved.

There is no harm is discussing---but when you don't have the understanding---it is better to ask.

Mastan Khan
I would love to ask from someone who knows somnething---- ANYTHING. But when I am speaking to some one with the intellect of a brick wall it is better not to ask for all you will get is the drivel that you are currently spewing out.Look at your last 10 posts and tell me whether there is even one post which has any facts associated with them.
regards
A

 

[volatile]

May be JF 17 3rd block will give us the final answer, why PAF is not going for J 10.

JF17 and J10 are different planes all together J10 is mature and already incorporates many tech which JF17 lacks and may have in 3rd block .In terms of evolution JF17 in my view nears block 40 of F16 and J10 nearer to F16 block 60 interms of avionics lets see what happens