Italian Marines Going Home For X-MAS

[Gandhi G in da house]

Italian govt. has done its job of protecting Italian citizens...

The point is about Indian Govts diligence in protecting Indian citizens.

Two Kids near Mumbai posted something in Facebook and prima facie evidence was found by the court and was released on Bail with the strict condition of reporting to the nearest Police station every week , till the case was settled (which would take anything between 3-7 years)

Two Italian murdered two Indians in cold blood and admitted to the killing. In spite of prima facie evidence Indian court found it reasonable to grant them bail and let them leave the country.


I guess we are used to being second class citizens in our own country, not to see the irony in this.

@ bold part-Facebook post on Thackeray: Charges dropped against Palghar girls - Times Of India


On topic-No one has forgiven anyone, i will lose faith in this country if those marines aren't brought back and trial is continued.

 

[Bang Galore]

In that case why the sham of keeping them in jail and all the hullabuloo for the trial..Why not they were released immediately and sent home ?

Actually I have no grievances with the Italian Govt..they are just doing their job of securing their citizens and I respect them for that..but I have no words to express the anger at the judge, the frustration at the Govt and most importantly the disgust at the archbishop who has said that the philosophy of the church is to forgive and hence they have "forgiven" them. Will the church forgive Dara Singh ?

I'm not aware of the Archbishop's statement but that is pathetic if true. The Indian government has been taking this line soon after the initial arrest, for precisely the reasons I have said. Just that once this case became political, the GoI was very wary of seeming to be insensitive to local feelings especially with those marines being Italian(you know what follows). This case was always one of compensation and that was given though I wish the GoI was upfront about it. I do understand their hesitation because opposition parties who would do the same if they were in power seem to have now gotten into an extremely destructive habit of mindlessly opposing everything the government is doing.

 

[zaxcolix]

You are being too harsh. Look at this case. The men were acting on orders of the Italian government in as much they were on official duty. Even if they were guilty of shooting the fishermen within Indian jurisdiction, it is still a matter between the two governments unless of course, Italy disclaimed any responsibility. The marines were acting on behalf of their government. Prosecuting them will set a dangerous precedence, one that might well come & bite us on our backsides.The fact that this case has gone this far is itself extraordinary. No easy answers here.

Inside Indian jurisdiction Italians marines or pakistanis soilders don't get to shoot Indians. They are required to follow Indian Law.

Unless foreign citizens have 'diplomatic immunity' they are prosecutable for crime committed even if they do so in direct order of their government.

Your defence of their action is extra ordinary. Their case is in Supreme Court. If they are non prosecutable then the SC will dismiss the case, it has not done so till now. (Unless you know something the SC doesn't)

As for dangerous precedence being set ....that has been set ..but for something other that what you have suggested.

@ bold part-Facebook post on Thackeray: Charges dropped against Palghar girls - Times Of India

On topic-No one has forgiven anyone, i will lose faith in this country if those marines aren't brought back and trial is continued.

That was due to media pressure and public opinion...no thanks to the government. .... much earlier somebody was arrested for writing something against Sharad Pawar in facebook !

 

[Bang Galore]

Inside Indian jurisdiction Italians marines or pakistanis soilders don't get to shoot Indians. They are required to follow Indian Law.

Unless foreign citizens have 'diplomatic immunity' they are prosecutable for crime committed even if they do so in direct order of their government.

Your defence of their action is extra ordinary. Their case is in Supreme Court. If they are non prosecutable then the SC will dismiss the case, it has not done so till now. (Unless you know something the SC doesn't)

As for dangerous precedence being set ....that has been set ..but for something other that what you have suggested.

Not really, there is some doubt, always has been, on jurisdiction. It has never been cut & dry. I have not said that their actions could not be prosecuted, merely that it was primarily a matter for the two governments to get into. I'm defending what action? That of the marines?(I'm not) Or of the court that set them free? You seem to have forgotten who exactly set them free. As for your suggestion of another dangerous precedence having been set (if they don't come back) that too is unfortunately true. Which is why I said that there were no easy answers here.

 

[zaxcolix]

I'm not aware of the Archbishop's statement but that is pathetic if true. The Indian government has been taking this line soon after the initial arrest, for precisely the reasons I have said. Just that once this case became political, the GoI was very wary of seeming to be insensitive to local feelings especially with those marines being Italian(you know what follows). This case was always one of compensation and that was given though I wish the GoI was upfront about it. I do understand their hesitation because opposition parties who would do the same if they were in power seem to have now gotten into an extremely destructive habit of mindlessly opposing everything the government is doing.

Ah ...I get it ......Indian lives are valued in $ ......Justice is a concept for higher evolved civilized nations, not Indians.

 

[Bang Galore]

Ah ...I get it ......Indian lives are valued in $ ......Justice is a concept for higher evolved civilized nations, not Indians.

Don't overdo it. unnecessary.

 

[gslv mk3]

Bullshit. The marines aint coming back. Vatican knows which strings to pull to get them to safety. The local church has a big share of the blame in this..All I can say is traitors. More vaticanos than vaticanos.

Not to forget that Catholic church here played a crucial role for the poor Family of fisherman to get a compensation of 10,000,000 rupees.

For us its all about nationalism...for the families it is about survival without the only income-earning memmber of their family

We have forgiven Italian naval guards, archbishop Susaipakiyam - Times Of India


The Archbishop maybe talking about 'forgiven' at the 'court of god' and not our judicial system



''The archbishop said though the legal course of action demanded a trial and pronouncement of judgment to complete the procedures in the case, he preferred to take a theological perspective on the issue. "They have undergone imprisonment for some time. They say they didn't fire at the fishermen purposefully. They too have families and it is only proper that they were given a chance to celebrate Christmas with their families," he said, adding "Let the law take its course. But, granting bail to an accused is also permitted under our law.

Recalling his recent visit to Italy, Susaipakiyam said there is a lot to learn from the solidarity that the Italians have shown with the marines.

"A number of innocent Indian fishermen are in the Sri Lankan and Pakistani prisons. Are we doing anything to secure their release? In fact, this episode should open our eyes to see their plight and work for their welfare," he said.''

 

[nair]

They wont come back....First they will celebrate X mas... Then new year.... Then easter...... List goes on.....

Not to forget that Catholic church here played a crucial role for the poor Family of fisherman to get a compensation of 10,000,000 rupees.

For us its all about nationalism...for the families it is about survival without the only income-earning memmber of their family

We have forgiven Italian naval guards, archbishop Susaipakiyam - Times Of India


The ArchBishop maybe talking about 'forgiven' at the 'court of god' and not our judicial system

In that court Archbishop is a lawyer... not the judge.... do lawyers forgive convicts?????

 

[zaxcolix]

Don't overdo it. unnecessary.

Nothing to over do ...just stating facts/posts as I see them.

The whole problem as per you seem to be that since the marines was 'Italian' the govt. of India was on the backfoot (poor Sonia Gandhi).

So they went to extra ordinary measure to sooth 'local feelings' by deciding to prosecute them. How Noble of Man Mohan singh.

 

[nair]

If celebrating X'mas is the case... They would have brought the family back to kerala and celebrated.... Kerala do celebrate X mas quite well.... ( i remember even court asked this question)

 

[rockinghealer]

Don't know wht **** diplomacy took place behind the scene but this is the genorisity of Indian government should be harshly condemned. dnt know what kind of signal government is trying to send

 

[Bang Galore]

Nothing to over do ...just stating facts/posts as I see them.

The whole problem as per you seem to be that since the marines was 'Italian' the govt. of India was on the backfoot (poor Sonia Gandhi).

So they went to extra ordinary measure to sooth 'local feelings' by deciding to prosecute them. How Noble of Man Mohan singh.

There is no problem. I'm stating facts as I see them. Since I do not claim to be the sole repository of knowledge, I might be wrong & this incident might have a completely different background. Just that everything I have read & seen suggests that I'm probably right in that assessment. You are free to disagree, just as long as you don't stoop to misconstrue my points, deliberately or otherwise. Move on.

Recalling his recent visit to Italy, Susaipakiyam said there is a lot to learn from the solidarity that the Italians have shown with the marines.
''

What he pity he had to go to Italy to learn a lesson he should have been responsible for passing on to his church. Learn solidarity indeed...... Got to be an archbishop without learning anything, I guess.

 

[gslv mk3]

What he pity he had to go to Italy to learn a lesson he should have been responsible for passing on to his church. Learn solidarity indeed...... Got to be an archbishop without learning anything, I guess.

Did he went to italy or Vatican???

 

[zaxcolix]

Not to forget that Catholic church here played a crucial role for the poor Family of fisherman to get a compensation of 10,000,000 rupees.

I was not aware it was the Vatican who paid that amount. I was misinformed that the Italian govt. paid it to soften local feelings and make their 'bail' more edible to Indians.

For us its all about nationalism...for the families it is about survival without the only income-earning memmber of their family

Yes...brutal Hindoo majority Indians who screw them with 'nationalism' as against the Noble Church who provide Blood Money.

....It was rather sad that Bajrang Dal did not offered 'Blood Money' to release Dara Singh (..who used to fight against cow slaughter) and our secular govt. made the CBI pursue Death Sentence for him right up the Supreme Court. (after being rejected by the Orissa high court). Finally the SC had to say there was 'forced conversion' going on in Orissa.

Recalling his recent visit to Italy, Susaipakiyam said there is a lot to learn from the solidarity that the Italians have shown with the marines.

...its 'nationalism' only when Indians do it ...when the white man does it ..its 'Solidarity'

"A number of innocent Indian fishermen are in the Sri Lankan and Pakistani prisons. Are we doing anything to secure their release? In fact, this episode should open our eyes to see their plight and work for their welfare," he said.

..which was my point in the first place.

 

[gslv mk3]

I was not aware it was the Vatican who paid that amount. I was misinformed that the Italian govt. paid it to soften local feelings and make their 'bail' more edible to Indians.

Nah...it was local priests who mediated to Italian government...it happened long before 'bail' thing

Yes...brutal Hindoo majority Indians who screw them with 'nationalism' as against the Noble Church who provide Blood Money.

No need to mix this with up with religion,Even I thought the same like you....
But then the family of fisherman withdrew the petition when paid the compensation.....
I dont think the Italians or the Church was not trying to make them do this-This wont affect the case as its marines vs the state(India)

It was rather sad that Bajrang Dal did not offered 'Blood Money' to release Dara Singh (..who used to fight against cow slaughter)

Killing of a cow is a big crime against humanity.Killing a man and his 2 pre-teen sons by burning doesn't count as a crime????

our secular govt. made the CBI pursue Death Sentence for him right up the Supreme Court. (after being rejected by the Orissa high court).

Justice done

Finally the SC had to say there was 'forced conversion' going on in Orissa.

Christians are only 2.4% of total Orissa population.What about killing and raping Christians as in Kandamal??I dont know much about protestent Churches there though.

its 'nationalism' only when Indians do it ...when the white man does it ..its 'Solidarity'

Are we doing that????