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It is time for Navy Air Arm to take over from PAF and start flying JF-17's

How many Navys in the world have fighter jets as part of their armada that DONT operate aircraft carriers?

I can't think of any actually. Even countries with much larger navies and maritime borders don't see the need for jets. These include, Japan, Turkey, Australia, Iran, Indonesia, Egypt, Taiwan, S Skorea, etc.

That tells me that there is no empirical evidence that shows it is a requirement for most countries, and some of these have actual blue water capability (unlike Pakistan). The air forces of these countries would seem to suffice in providing them with the air power they would need against potential threats. All these navies operate their own maritime patrol and anti-ship/sub airplanes of course, just like PN.

But here is where I see a fallacy in the arguments presented in favor of PN having fighter jets. It is like somehow, they would be able to perform a function that PAF operated jets can not. That somehow there will be better coordination because they will be operated by PN. Even if you give in to this idea, I don't see why this coordination can not extend between PAF & PN, given that the any maritime minded PAF squadrons are based basically in Karachi. And if there is a gap in such, that should be what is improved as a practical solution.

The blue-on-blue incidents from 40 years ago is a poor example to use, not only because in war, such incidents can occur, but it also flies in the face of the professionalism of both arms. Are we to believe that they have not studied past mistakes and not taken any remedial action to address them in the future? This does not even include the fact that technology has changed over the years as well and having radars, IFF, secure comms etc, identification is not going to happen with pilots flying over a ship to get a visual. Their antiship missiles are of course going to be used from standoff ranges.

This all ignores the cost factor of course ... can PN actually afford to buy, operate and maintain fast jets or are those resources better used on increasing and updating its surface ship capability.

Now, here is another argument I can think of ... is a PN operated fighter squadron going to be only concerned with the IN? A: No. Are they going to face off against IAF and their aircraft in a conflict? A: Yes. If operating these expensive multirole aircraft, are they not going to take part in offensive missions against IA if PA is under threat in their sector? A: No, of course they will. So that means any potential squadron of PN would have the exact same roles as a PAF squadron.
So what will be different exactly from the role that is being filled by PAF at the moment. PAF is still going to provide top cover to the Navys P-3Cs and ATRs, and using its AShMs against IN ships.

Can any of the proponents offer any substantial benefits that maybe I am not seeing or are not able to be performed by PAF?
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On a side note, these following countries have figther jets in their naval air arms but all of them also operate air craft carriers. Did I miss any?
United States (F-18s, F-35s),
United Kingdom (none until F-35 comes on)
China (Flankers),
France (Rafale),
India (Mig-35),
Russia (Flankers,
Italy (Harries, then F-35 later)
air war is different than naval war. Navy operational requirements are different. either give few squadrons of PAF under naval command or give navy its own fighters. We can't repeat 71 mistake again where air force got busy in its own war and navy was left alone.
 
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air war is different than naval war. Navy operational requirements are different. either give few squadrons of PAF under naval command or give navy its own fighters. We can't repeat 71 mistake again where air force got busy in its own war and navy was left alone.

Okay, fine I give in. You have my permission to take however many squadrons for the Navy from the Air Force
 
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PAF wont be able to defend Pakistan airspace effectively if war continues, forgot about giving navy anything for offensive missions. During the 71 war i believe PAF hit their own boat due to lack of proper coordination between the two sides. I dont expect similar instances to happen now as technology has matured enough but PN does need its own squadron and if i may add that Squadron should not consist of JF-17.
 
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PAF wont be able to defend Pakistan airspace effectively if war continues, forgot about giving navy anything for offensive missions. During the 71 war i believe PAF hit their own boat due to lack of proper coordination between the two sides. I dont expect similar instances to happen now as technology has matured enough but PN does need its own squadron and if i may add that Squadron should not consist of JF-17.

Hi,

JH7 is still the best and the cheapest bet for Pak navy---. Based on the F111 design---this aircraft can fly low with a heavy load that other J series aircraft cannot do---.

Young pakistani kids don't even know that PAF destroyed its own frigate---and killed hundreds of pakistani sailors---.

It was not one pass by the Paf mirages on that pakistani ship but multiple passes---.
 
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Young pakistani kids don't even know that PAF destroyed its own frigate---and killed hundreds of pakistani sailors---.

It was not one pass by the Paf mirages on that pakistani ship but multiple passes---.
when did that happen?
 
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Hi,

The system is a problem---that is the reason something like that happened---.

The system breeds a certain attitude---and that attitude is reflective in a visual manner in the posture of almost all of the pictures of fighter pilots of Paf---.



Hi,

Where does Vendetta come in---.

I am not making any of those things up---it is a documented historic fact---of Paf---.

And I have not quoted what ACM RETD Asghar Khan told his counter part in India---.
So basically arrogance.

But aren't all (if not most) fighter pilots in any air force in any country guilty of such attitude?
 
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If we have some of these beautiful Ships Type054D/Type054A
The Marine Time Air Support Role could be delegated to Airforce 100%

If we inducted 4 / 4 combination at Sea , we really would not have a need for Mirage Marine Time seperate wing as the same role can be done by the Powerful Type054D/Type054A

A Traditinal Air support can be requested from Airforce
2-3 Squadrons based around Coastal Areas
A92UA.jpg

Type_054A_frigate_0.jpg



Maintaining 2 seperate airforces are unnecessary in my opinion
 
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Anyone old enough to remember “the defense of the East lies in the West”
 
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The situation of 1971 are not application in 2018, due to various options Pakistan has now.

The Airforce , and communication mechanism is Advance enough to ensure Airforce can device a strategy to protect Navy Assets


However the Navy must develop it's own Mandate to defend it self from all Threats

a) Sea to Sea threats
b) Threats from Air
c) Threats from Sub Sea Level dangers


The workarounds, or patches , or temporary measures are not idea long term solution


Pakistan needs to field a Dominent Presence in our Own Coastal Zone


8 To 10 Ships are sufficient , number to enhance Pakistan Sea , and National interest independently
 
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Other than JF-17 what is the best option you people think for PN:
Grippen
Rafael - If France allows
EF-2000
SU-35
J-31
 
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Let us see what is available and what capability they offer for a maritime role.

Saab Gripen ... Out of contention as Swedes won't sell us offensive weapons (maybe they will now as we are a 'democracy' but I would rule them out. Besides, its not much of a jump from JF-17 so redundant.

Dassault Rafale ... French are desperate for buyers for their local industry. They will absolutely sell to Pakistan regardless if what Indians might think. It offers nice range and payload and can carry Exocets.

Eurofighter EF-2000 ... Can only carry Italian MBDA Marte (smaller then Exocet/Harpoon/RBS-15) or the RBS-15 (Swedes won't sell us again). It has not been integrated with Harpoons or Exocet, so makes no sense buying this jet for Naval operations.

Sukhoi Su-35 ... Can carry Kh-35, similar to Exocet. No idea how good this weapon is. Yakhnot, the other option is based on Brahmos, so unlikely would be offered to Pakistan.
Shenyang J-31 ... Still in prototype phase and has no anti-ship capabilities.

F-16C/D ... PAF F-16s can not use these but if they were to be updated down the line under better political climate, the jet can carry two missiles.

So the best jet might be the Rafale from this list. However, realistically JF-17 fits the bill as it can carry C-802AK and CM-400AKG, both weapons in PAF arsenal, and we produce the aircraft locally.
 
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Other than JF-17 what is the best option you people think for PN:
Grippen
Rafael - If France allows
EF-2000
SU-35
J-31
add one more JH-7 which is the best option available for Pakistan:pakistan::china:
Let us see what is available and what capability they offer for a maritime role.

Saab Gripen ... Out of contention as Swedes won't sell us offensive weapons (maybe they will now as we are a 'democracy' but I would rule them out. Besides, its not much of a jump from JF-17 so redundant.

Dassault Rafale ... French are desperate for buyers for their local industry. They will absolutely sell to Pakistan regardless if what Indians might think. It offers nice range and payload and can carry Exocets.

Eurofighter EF-2000 ... Can only carry Italian MBDA Marte (smaller then Exocet/Harpoon/RBS-15) or the RBS-15 (Swedes won't sell us again). It has not been integrated with Harpoons or Exocet, so makes no sense buying this jet for Naval operations.

Sukhoi Su-35 ... Can carry Kh-35, similar to Exocet. No idea how good this weapon is. Yakhnot, the other option is based on Brahmos, so unlikely would be offered to Pakistan.
Shenyang J-31 ... Still in prototype phase and has no anti-ship capabilities.

F-16C/D ... PAF F-16s can not use these but if they were to be updated down the line under better political climate, the jet can carry two missiles.

So the best jet might be the Rafale from this list. However, realistically JF-17 fits the bill as it can carry C-802AK and CM-400AKG, both weapons in PAF arsenal, and we produce the aircraft locally.
And how about this one Bro
JH-7
jh-7a-and-its-weapons.jpg

gkittinger-160321-56f0032e628c1.jpg

PLAAF_Xian_JH-7A_at_Chelyabinsk_Shagol_Air_Base.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_JH-7
 
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