Israeli export 15K times greater than in 1948

[somebozo]

That's a fantastic achievement but I am not surprised. Jewish people back in 1942 were much more industrious, traders and farmers compared to many many other groups in the region.

This is true for almost entire part of Arab vs Jews history. The Jews of Khayber were unrivaled for their industrial and metallgury capabilities. After the Islamic conquest, Khayber just faded into the backdrop as a backward agrarian village which it continues to be today. I think we all need a good disillusionment session about History.

2. Our convoy just crossed Jordan. Now we are driving through desert studded with beautiful farms. It turns out that all of them are owned by Jewish families. In many of these farms, young boys and girls are frolicking in the swimming pools. Beautiful girls wave at us and we all wave back.

3. Our convoy stops and we are surrounded by Arab kids begging for cigarettes. I feel sad to see how Arabs are behaving like beggars while Jewish people are so full of life, so hard working.

Reality hasnt changed much. Desire of easy money still runs in Arabs mind. Yesterday they were begging the tourist and soldiers today they are begging the UN and dozen or so Palestinean Aid agencies active in Arab countries.

Compare this with resource starved and boycotted Israel which has become a major industrial power house of the world.

For trade you need open and friendly societies that are fully connected in global connections. And that's why Arabs or other tribal societies cannot do well in trade. No way. Off course there are tiny exceptions like Dubai.

Exceptions because of free zones where 100% of the trade is owned by expats.

 

[Mercenary]

Exchange equivalent lands between the two countries, they take the Arabs that call themselves as Palestinians(They are prominent) and no more settlements, the line is finally defined.

I agree with that. Thats the best way to do it.

But with the continuing Israeli settlement activity, how do you propose to divide West Bank when the settlements are penetrating deep into the West Bank?

And besides it was so much trouble to dismantle the Gaza Strip settlements....how will Israel ever start dismantling the West Bank settlements?

And what about the IDF's Office Corps, around 50% come from West Bank settlers, how will that work?

Instead of wasting time on PLO, shouldn't Israel start a unilateral withdrawal process already?

What are they waiting for? Atleast Sharon had the foresight to realize to withdraw from Gaza Strip, shouldn't Netanyahu do the same in West Bank?

 

[PteX]

I agree with that. Thats the best way to do it.

But with the continuing Israeli settlement activity, how do you propose to divide West Bank when the settlements are penetrating deep into the West Bank?

And besides it was so much trouble to dismantle the Gaza Strip settlements....how will Israel ever start dismantling the West Bank settlements?

And what about the IDF's Office Corps, around 50% come from West Bank settlers, how will that work?

Instead of wasting time on PLO, shouldn't Israel start a unilateral withdrawal process already?

What are they waiting for? Atleast Sharon had the foresight to realize to withdraw from Gaza Strip, shouldn't Netanyahu do the same in West Bank?

Netanyahu learned from Sharon's mistakes, since he too believed if we just withdrew unilaterally(Like we did in South Lebanon) then the rockets would start firing.

It happened when we did it with Lebanon, it happened with Gaza and if we come out of the West Bank without security guarantees it will happen in the West Bank as well since Israel is protecting Abbas from HAMAS takeover.(Which will happen as it happened in Gaza in 2006)

 

[Mercenary]

Netanyahu learned from Sharon's mistakes, since he too believed if we just withdrew unilaterally(Like we did in South Lebanon) then the rockets would start firing.

It happened when we did it with Lebanon, it happened with Gaza and if we come out of the West Bank without security guarantees it will happen in the West Bank as well since Israel is protecting Abbas from HAMAS takeover.(Which will happen as it happened in Gaza in 2006)

Rockets were a nuisance but they were not a strategic threat.

And Israel has deployed the Iron Dome System which destroyed 90% of all incoming Hamas rockets in the recent conflict. Overtime that system will only get better.

Look, I am 100% sure that if you unilateral withdraw from West Bank, Hamas, or PLO, or Islamic Jihad or even Al Qaeda will set up base and start firing rockets at Israel.

Then Israel has every right to hit back and destroy them and Israel would be justified in doing so.

But their attacks will be a nuisance and not a strategic threat.

Israel continuing to occupy the West Bank with a growing Arab population is a bigger strategic threat than any attacks launched from West Bank after Israel vacates that territory.

Thats the strategic paradigm Israel faces.

Israel might need to absorb these rockets for a while but they can be dealt with militarily. And besides after the punishment that Hamas and Hezbollah received in 2006 and 2009, violence has really died down in those regions.

Similar can be applied in West Bank.

If these Arabs start firing at Israel from territory vacated in West Bank, then Israel using its superior firepower will destroy them and they will be much more wary of any future adventures.

 

[PteX]

Rockets were a nuisance but they were not a strategic threat.

And Israel has deployed the Iron Dome System which destroyed 90% of all incoming Hamas rockets in the recent conflict. Overtime that system will only get better.

Look, I am 100% sure that if you unilateral withdraw from West Bank, Hamas, or PLO, or Islamic Jihad or even Al Qaeda will set up base and start firing rockets at Israel.

Then Israel has every right to hit back and destroy them and Israel would be justified in doing so.

But their attacks will be a nuisance and not a strategic threat.

Israel continuing to occupy the West Bank with a growing Arab population is a bigger strategic threat than any attacks launched from West Bank after Israel vacates that territory.

Thats the strategic paradigm Israel faces.

Israel might need to absorb these rockets for a while but they can be dealt with militarily. And besides after the punishment that Hamas and Hezbollah received in 2006 and 2009, violence has really died down in those regions.

Similar can be applied in West Bank.

If these Arabs start firing at Israel from territory vacated in West Bank, then Israel using its superior firepower will destroy them and they will be much more wary of any future adventures.

That is where the problem lies, creating another Gaza and Hezbollah.

1.Those rockets kill yearly 10-20 people, the lives of our citizens are very dear to us as one can see when we exchanged a 1000 murderers for just one soldier. 10-20 dead to be quadrupled and even more, during any future conflict is unacceptable.

2.Imagine all the fronts being open to all of our enemies, they would have a direct capability to bombard every major city in Israel just by simple and ancient rockets, this would essentially become a war of survival like in the 6 day war.

3.The Jordan valley must remain under Israeli control in order to protect our borders from jets that can literally bombard Tel Aviv in crucial minutes that we would not have if we gave up the entire West bank.

Things are much more complicated than a bunch of Arabs claiming to be a nationality when before Israel they were either from Lebanon, Syria or Egypt.

The only solution is a Palestinian state that does NOT jeopardize Israel, nothing else can be accepted.

P.S

Let's not forget the ever beloved Europeans and all the oil-dependent nations that would only too gladly support any and every action against Israel if it did what you are suggesting, even if it were justified.

This is the world we live in, the world of hypocrisy where it is beneficial(Extremely beneficial) to blame all the woes on Israel.

 

[Mercenary]

That is where the problem lies, creating another Gaza and Hezbollah.

1.Those rockets kill yearly 10-20 people, the lives of our citizens are very dear to us as one can see when we exchanged a 1000 murderers for just one soldier. 10-20 dead to be quadrupled and even more, during any future conflict is unacceptable.

The rockets did kill 10-20 people, but they haven't killed anyone in a while. Israel has deployed the Iron Dome system which has neutralized this threat. Besides, Hamas will not launch any more rockets as it knows the punishment it received during the 2009 attack and Hezbollah as well in 2006. If some trouble does brew up in West Bank, Israel can launch a major air-ground campaign and decimate them.

2.Imagine all the fronts being open to all of our enemies, they would have a direct capability to bombard every major city in Israel just by simple and ancient rockets, this would essentially become a war of survival like in the 6 day war.

You are assuming the range of those rockets won't change. What if Hamas introduces a new rocket that can reach Tel Aviv from Gaza. Does that mean Israel should re-occupy Gaza Strip. That calculus does not make sense.

What if some Terrorist group sets up camp in Jordan and has rockets that could reach Tel Aviv? What then?

So Israel cannot continue to occupy those territory for the sake of security. If the time comes that that area is used to launch rockets, Israel will send its forces and deal with them and deploy the Iron Dome System to shoot them down.

As for the 6 day war, Israel was surrounded but under no danger of being destroyed. Israeli forces were far stronger than the combined Arab forces. If Arab forces had attacked first, Israel would have won in 2-3 Weeks, if Israel attacked first, they would have won in 1 week. This was a Pentagon War Study presented to Abba Eban when he flew to Washington DC to get American support for Israel.

3.The Jordan valley must remain under Israeli control in order to protect our borders from jets that can literally bombard Tel Aviv in crucial minutes that we would not have if we gave up the entire West bank.

That doesn't make strategic sense because militants could deploy rockets which have longer range and reach Tel Aviv. Israel has to deal with these threats as they materialize and not have a permanent hold on that territory.

Things are much more complicated than a bunch of Arabs claiming to be a nationality when before Israel they were either from Lebanon, Syria or Egypt.

Thats true but since Arab countries except Jordan refused to grant them nationality, they have a seperate identity of Palestinian and thus they need a homeland.

The only solution is a Palestinian state that does NOT jeopardize Israel, nothing else can be accepted.

P.S

Let's not forget the ever beloved Europeans and all the oil-dependent nations that would only too gladly support any and every action against Israel if it did what you are suggesting, even if it were justified. This is the world we live in, the world of hypocrisy where it is beneficial(Extremely beneficial) to blame all the woes on Israel.

With such conditions, there will never be a Palestinian state. Arabs will never accept Israel's right to exist. Israel will exist due to its ingenuity, and the power to defend it self. But that is in mortal danger if a Palestinian population becomes the majority in Israel and thus it is necessary to create a Palestinian state on West Bank to retain Jewish majority.

The status quo spells doom for Israel.

 

[IbnAlwaled]

Well when the Jews arrived there in 1880's they bought the land from the Arabs.

Tel Aviv was founded on territory purchased by Jews from Arabs. Much like New York City's Manhattan Island was purchased by the Dutch from the natives.

In 1948, there were 600,000 Jews living in British mandate of Palestine. 500,000 were in Tel Aviv, 50,000 were in West Jersualem and rest were scattered all over. They did not displace the Arab population.

Its only after the 1948 War, in which Palestinians fled which created the Palestinian refugees.

And besides, Jordan and Egypt controlled West Bank and Gaza Strip for 19 years. Why didnt they create an independent Palestinian state on those lands?

The fact of the matter is this, if Israel had never existed, there would be no Palestine, it would be nothing more than a Province of Jordan.

They were expelled. They didn't just pick up and leave. Obviously

 

[IbnAlwaled]

Unlike the Manhattan deal the Jews paid very high prices - one American historian, Will Durant I think it was, wrote after his 1920s visit to Palestine that the price a Jew paid for land was forty times greater than the price an Arab would pay for the same plot.

It seems this huge disparity attracted Arabs who preyed on their weaker fellows to sell them land that they then sold to Jews at great profit, and a small portion of such profits was used to propagate the idea that it was the Jews who "stole" land from their terrorized victims!

The spiritual claim is religious, that G-d commanded the Hebrews, former slaves in Egypt, to migrate to the lands of Canaan and settle there. ("Palestine" is a Roman name, not a Jewish or Arab one.) The moral claim is, of course, that Jews had their own state and were expelled their 2,000 years ago and that still being recognized as a distinct people by themselves and their enemies the "Jewish Question" could best be solved, like other peoples, through achieving their own nation-state.

This was not an uncommon attitude after WWI when three empires were broken up into nation-states. The Romanians, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Iraqis, Egyptians, Poles - they all got their own nation-states.

It's not the Israelis that are "hostile to all neighbors". The historical record clearly shows that it was the decision of the neighbors to maintain hostility towards Israel. As the Arab League put it," No peace with Israel; No recognition of Israel; No negotiations with Israel."

Funny, if native American decided to kick you whites out, then based on what you say, they have a moral claim. The Jews were kicked out from Madena 1400 years ago, if they decided to resettle the city, would that go well with international community or UN? more importantly, do they have a moral claim to it? If Jews exterminated all Palestinians except for a thousand who moved to Jordan, would their offspring 7 centuries later have a moral claim on Palestine?

The only law/morality/ethic in international relations is power, that's way despite they world tireless effort to resolve the issue 45 times, Israel and the US rejected because they have power(veto). The simple fact of the matter is that Muslims consider Al-Quds(Jerusalem) holy(because Al-Aqsa (Masjid). Unsurprisingly, Jews claim that the exact site is the location of their long lost temple, which puts them in a collision course with ALL Muslims. Because of that there will never be permanent peace in the ME, that's why Israel prefers secularists like Mubarak and Bashar, because they hold no value for Al-Aqsa masjid, while all religious Muslims do, we know that and Israelis know that.
Just like the Qur'an said 1400 years ago that Jews will return to their "homeland" it is said that Muslims will kick them out of it, just like we did to the Christian crusaders, but I would bet all of my money that it wont take as long.

 

[RayKalm]

I think there was another hidden blessing the article missed: the Arab and Muslim world's official boycott of trade with Israel. At first the Jews nearly starved because after '48 the Arab countries kicked their Jews into Israel while refusing to supply food; the country nearly starved but the advanced agricultural techniques developed under such pressure were the foundation of many technologies as well as Israel's agricultural exports.

In the 1970s and 80s the official boycott meant that Israel could export arms quietly to "hostile" governments with the assurance that such trade would remain secret - and because it was secret could probably export, or re-export, weapons to both sides in a conflict. (It's hard to tell for sure; while the Afghan mujaheddin's arms were said to be Soviet weapons captured by Israel there is Congressional testimony that weapons were sold by Communist Poland to irritate its Soviet master.)

Israel getting aid from the US since day one of it's existence obviously doesn't have to do anything with how successful it is now.

 

[IbnAlwaled]

With such conditions, there will never be a Palestinian state. Arabs will never accept Israel's right to exist. Israel will exist due to its ingenuity, and the power to defend it self. But that is in mortal danger if a Palestinian population becomes the majority in Israel and thus it is necessary to create a Palestinian state on West Bank to retain Jewish majority.

The status quo spells doom for Israel.

Arabs in greater Israel(Israel+west bank+Gaza) are already 90% of Jews, with current birth rate they will the exceed the number of Jews very soon.

 

[RayKalm]

That's a fantastic achievement but I am not surprised. Jewish people back in 1942 were much more industrious, traders and farmers compared to many many other groups in the region.

Here are some excerpts from a book (I read long time ago so I may not be exact on some of the details/dates) by a young Pakistani captain (who back then was part of the mighty British-Indian army deployed in the Middle East).

1. It is January 17 1942, Our convoy is moving from Baghdad to Cairo tomorrow. We have pacified Iraqis and brought peace here. The cafes are filled with good looking Iraqi women. My fellow captain Scott is enjoying their company. Too bad I can't participate. I am married.

2. Our convoy just crossed Jordan. Now we are driving through desert studded with beautiful farms. It turns out that all of them are owned by Jewish families. In many of these farms, young boys and girls are frolicking in the swimming pools. Beautiful girls wave at us and we all wave back.

3. Our convoy stops and we are surrounded by Arab kids begging for cigarettes. I feel sad to see how Arabs are behaving like beggars while Jewish people are so full of life, so hard working.

4. We are staying close to Haifa. Someone says everyone must visit the local bars in Haifa. I don't drink, but my fellow officer says don't worry we are going their to enjoy the best freshly squeezed orange juice in the world. In the evening I visit one of the bars with my fellow officers. Orange juice was remarkable. Haifa is truly heaven on earth.

5. Our convoy is now driving to Cairo. I am going to miss Haifa.


This was a short trip through modern day Israel that left lifelong impression on the young captain.

I hope you guys now realize this thread should only focus on the achievements of Jewish people. It is unfair to compare them with the Arabs.

For trade you need open and friendly societies that are fully connected in global connections. And that's why Arabs or other tribal societies cannot do well in trade. No way. Off course there are tiny exceptions like Dubai.

Peace to all.




Source: Colonel (retired) Mohammad Khan in his book "War cometh" (Bejang Aamad - a story of the second World War).

Not to sound selfish, but Dubai's success is thanks to a bunch of Pakistanis, and Iranians, as well as Indians to some extent.

 

[IbnAlwaled]

I agree with that. Thats the best way to do it.

But with the continuing Israeli settlement activity, how do you propose to divide West Bank when the settlements are penetrating deep into the West Bank?

And besides it was so much trouble to dismantle the Gaza Strip settlements....how will Israel ever start dismantling the West Bank settlements?

And what about the IDF's Office Corps, around 50% come from West Bank settlers, how will that work?

Instead of wasting time on PLO, shouldn't Israel start a unilateral withdrawal process already?

What are they waiting for? Atleast Sharon had the foresight to realize to withdraw from Gaza Strip, shouldn't Netanyahu do the same in West Bank?

They are not going to withdraw. Continue settlement expansion and strangling of Palestinians until they decide to leave which well never happen.

This is true for almost entire part of Arab vs Jews history. The Jews of Khayber were unrivaled for their industrial and metallgury capabilities. After the Islamic conquest, Khayber just faded into the backdrop as a backward agrarian village which it continues to be today. I think we all need a good disillusionment session about History.

Can you provide a single source for that?

 

[clmeta]

Yes Sheldon Cooper.

That spelling is very much deliberate, it is intended as a form of mockery.

I didn't know that. But yes, Israelis,Japanese,Koreans and now I may add Chinese are all hard working people.
On the other hand, South Asians:="Aaj kare so kal kar, kal kare so parson. Itni bhi jaldi kya hai, jab jeena hai barson."

Just my perception, don't ask me to prove it please.

Israel has made some big contributions around the world.

The software that is used to power is forum is written in PHP. Which was invented in Israel.

The donations which is used to fund this site, the security software to verify the transactions was developed in Israel as well.

Israelis are smart, dynamic and educated people. Is it any wonder why even being surrounded by so enemies, they have managed to not only survive but thrive.

Pakistan should learn some lessons from Israel.

 

[Mercenary]

They were expelled. They didn't just pick up and leave. Obviously

Bro, there are refugees in every war fought in civilian populated areas. Palestinians are not the first and they won't be the last. They fled with the re-treating Arab Armies. As did 10 million Germans during World War II when the Russians were approaching, as did 3 Million Koreans during the Korean War, as did the thousands of Vietnamese during the Vietnam War, etc.

Israel had a 30,000 Man Army in 1948 War. You mean to tell me that it was successfully fighting 5 Arab Armies and had enough man power to forcefully expel 600,000 Palestinians as well?

So they did indeed picked up and left out of fear what will happen when they run into Israeli forces.

 

[Mercenary]

Israel getting aid from the US since day one of it's existence obviously doesn't have to do anything with how successful it is now.

Its obvious you know next to nothing about this conflict with your insightful post. So please let the educated people discuss this topic.