Israeli export 15K times greater than in 1948

[Solomon2]

Tel Aviv was founded on territory purchased by Jews from Arabs. Much like New York City's Manhattan Island was purchased by the Dutch from the natives.

Unlike the Manhattan deal the Jews paid very high prices - one American historian, Will Durant I think it was, wrote after his 1920s visit to Palestine that the price a Jew paid for land was forty times greater than the price an Arab would pay for the same plot.

It seems this huge disparity attracted Arabs who preyed on their weaker fellows to sell them land that they then sold to Jews at great profit, and a small portion of such profits was used to propagate the idea that it was the Jews who "stole" land from their terrorized victims!

But how did they lay their "moral and spiritual" claim that way?

The spiritual claim is religious, that G-d commanded the Hebrews, former slaves in Egypt, to migrate to the lands of Canaan and settle there. ("Palestine" is a Roman name, not a Jewish or Arab one.) The moral claim is, of course, that Jews had their own state and were expelled their 2,000 years ago and that still being recognized as a distinct people by themselves and their enemies the "Jewish Question" could best be solved, like other peoples, through achieving their own nation-state.

This was not an uncommon attitude after WWI when three empires were broken up into nation-states. The Romanians, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Iraqis, Egyptians, Poles - they all got their own nation-states.

That too, by being hostile to all neighbours?

It's not the Israelis that are "hostile to all neighbors". The historical record clearly shows that it was the decision of the neighbors to maintain hostility towards Israel. As the Arab League put it," No peace with Israel; No recognition of Israel; No negotiations with Israel."

 

[Mercenary]

Then frankly I don't see why are Muslims so wary of Israel. If they really bought the land from Arabs, they have the right to reside there. Why try to destroy them by waging wars on Israel?

But from what I've seen in some documentaries, they do carry out oppressive policies on the Palestinians who are living in the outskirts. The settler jews that is.

Arabs waged war on Israel in 1948 because they believed they were weak people who were persecuted by the Nazis and thus had no chance of victory.

Muslims are not wary of Israel. Its just that Muslims are majority uneducated people who wrongly looked up to Arabs as the leaders of Islam. If Arabs are at war with Israel and Jews and thus other muslims must be at war with Israel too.

Smart educated Muslim countries like Turkey established relations with Israel.

Israel has a right to exist. But the territories occupied during the 6 Day War need to be returned to the Palestinians so they can establish their own country.

Israel by continuing to build settlements on West Bank is signing its own death warrant, because the Arab population will in a few years be larger than the Jewish population. And Jews will be a minority in Israel + Occupied Territories. And those settlements will be very hard to dismantle because settlers supply 50% of Israeli Officers in the IDF. They could mutiny or not take orders from IDF.

It is best for Israel to leave the West Bank so that it can preserve its Jewish majority.

Morons like Netanyahu are too stupid to see the writing on the wall.

 

[somebozo]

Unlike the Manhattan deal the Jews paid very high prices - one American historian, Will Durant I think it was, wrote after his 1920s visit to Palestine that the price a Jew paid for land was forty times greater than the price an Arab would pay for the same plot.

It seems this huge disparity attracted Arabs who preyed on their weaker fellows to sell them land that they then sold to Jews at great profit, and a small portion of such profits was used to propagate the idea that it was the Jews who "stole" land from their terrorized victims!

The spiritual claim is religious, that G-d commanded the Hebrews, former slaves in Egypt, to migrate to the lands of Canaan and settle there. ("Palestine" is a Roman name, not a Jewish or Arab one.) The moral claim is, of course, that Jews had their own state and were expelled their 2,000 years ago and that still being recognized as a distinct people by themselves and their enemies the "Jewish Question" could best be solved, like other peoples, through achieving their own nation-state.

This was not an uncommon attitude after WWI when three empires were broken up into nation-states. The Romanians, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Iraqis, Egyptians, Poles - they all got their own nation-states.

It's not the Israelis that are "hostile to all neighbors". The historical record clearly shows that it was the decision of the neighbors to maintain hostility towards Israel. As the Arab League put it," No peace with Israel; No recognition of Israel; No negotiations with Israel."

Somewhere I read that the corrupt Hashmite clan made is a rule that any Jew wanting to purchase a land must accquire it from an Arab and this motivated tens of nomads to migrate from Transjordan and Former Ottoman territories in Jerusalem and neighboring areas with the sole purpose of occupying land and selling it at high price to rich jews immigrating from Europe.

The Arabs banked on the strong Pan-Arab Nationalist sentiments led by the corrupt Hashmite clan supported by the British hoping to one day..kick or starve the jews out and have their lands back in the name of Nationalism. The British initially had many anti-israeli policies including supporting the Hashmites for shelling of Israel. The game became a failure due to rise of Al Saud faction back in Najd who would grow strong enough to invade and threat then British occupied Iraq and take over the region of Hejaz. This forced the British to be in alliance with Al Saud and recognize them as the powerhouse while abandon the Hashmite clan. This effectively changed the rules of game in the Arab world as well rendered hundred thousand of Palestinians homeless.

 

[Solomon2]

Israel has a right to exist. But the territories occupied during the 6 Day War need to be returned to the Palestinians so they can establish their own country.

This is the part I'm not so sure about. As near as I can tell the Arabs inhabiting Palestine in 1917 had no sense that they were a Palestinian nation; indeed, a group of villages sent a letter or delegation to the League of Nations explaining they considered themselves southern Syrians. Until 1960 or so the label "Palestinian" was synonymous with "Israeli".

It is the U.N. Relief Works Agency which is charged with perpetuating the "refugee" situation and today claims responsibility for propagating Palestinian nationalism in the schools it runs. The gunmen of the P.A. and Hamas enforce anti-Israel attitudes. This strikes me as a very artificial and shaky form of nationalism, even weaker than that of Pakistan.

While I'm sure it's right for Israel to exist, I'm not so sure that "Palestine" is the right solution for the Palestinian Arabs. The Greeks and Turks exchanged populations and with the separation of nationalities the conflict between them was sharply reduced, flaring up today only over Crete or sea boundaries. Other parts of Europe were similarly divided to their benefit in the past 100 years. It's worth exploring why a solution that worked elsewhere isn't worth applying to the Middle East.

 

[PteX]

Arabs waged war on Israel in 1948 because they believed they were weak people who were persecuted by the Nazis and thus had no chance of victory.

Muslims are not wary of Israel. Its just that Muslims are majority uneducated people who wrongly looked up to Arabs as the leaders of Islam. If Arabs are at war with Israel and Jews and thus other muslims must be at war with Israel too.

Smart educated Muslim countries like Turkey established relations with Israel.

Israel has a right to exist. But the territories occupied during the 6 Day War need to be returned to the Palestinians so they can establish their own country.

Israel by continuing to build settlements on West Bank is signing its own death warrant, because the Arab population will in a few years be larger than the Jewish population. And Jews will be a minority in Israel + Occupied Territories. And those settlements will be very hard to dismantle because settlers supply 50% of Israeli Officers in the IDF. They could mutiny or not take orders from IDF.

It is best for Israel to leave the West Bank so that it can preserve its Jewish majority.

Morons like Netanyahu are too stupid to see the writing on the wall.

Some points you are right, some points you are wrong.

Israel said it would be the first to recognize a Palestinian state and it will be, whether the Palestinians want it or not.

The peace process is dead when these Arabs demand Jerusalem as the their capital when everyone knows that Jerusalem is the holiest place in Judaism and giving it up would be the end of Israel(Which they made clear is their eventual goal).

 

[somebozo]

Some points you are right, some points you are wrong.

Israel said it would be the first to recognize a Palestinian state and it will be, whether the Palestinians want it or not.

The peace process is dead when these Arabs demand Jerusalem as the their capital when everyone knows that Jerusalem is the holiest place in Judaism and giving it up would be the end of Israel(Which they made clear is their eventual goal).

well Jerusalem is also Holy to the Muslims and its not like they will give it up so easy. Shared administration or mutual recognition of freedom of access to holy places could be the answer here. By being a bit lenient on Jerusalem, Israel can turn a majority of Muslim countries into its favour because then the conflict will no more be about Judaism vs Islam but Israel vs Arabs.

 

[Mercenary]

This is the part I'm not so sure about. As near as I can tell the Arabs inhabiting Palestine in 1917 had no sense that they were a Palestinian nation; indeed, a group of villages sent a letter or delegation to the U.N. explaining they considered themselves southern Syrians. Until 1960 or so the label "Palestinian" was synonymous with "Israeli".

It is the U.N. Relief Works Agency which is charged with perpetuating the "refugee" situation and today claims responsibility for propagating Palestinian nationalism in the schools it runs. The gunmen of the P.A. and Hamas enforce anti-Israel attitudes. This strikes me as a very artificial and shaky form of nationalism, even weaker than that of Pakistan.

While I'm sure it's right for Israel to exist, I'm not so sure that "Palestine" is the right solution for the Palestinian Arabs. The Greeks and Turks exchanged populations and with the separation of nationalities the conflict between them was sharply reduced, flaring up today only over Crete or sea boundaries. Other parts of Europe were similarly divided to their benefit in the past 100 years. It's worth exploring why a solution that worked elsewhere isn't worth applying to the Middle East.

The Palestinians need their own state. The current status quo cannot continue. The Palestinians are breeding in greater numbers than Jews and soon Jews will be a minority. What then?

Israelis cannot forcefully expel them, even USA won't stand for that and nor can they absorb them which will render the whole notion of Israel mute and nor can they co-exist as we have seen what happened in Lebanon during the brutal civil war between Muslims and Christians.

The only option is to create an independent country in West Bank and Gaza which was the situation before the 6 Day War and dismantle the settlements.

Historically, there have been huge population exchanges, such as India-Pakistan in 1947, Germany and Poland in 1945, Greeks and Turks in 1919. But in those cases, both sides recognized the other's right to exist. The Arabs and Muslims will never in majority recognize Israel's right to exist and Israel will need to adopt a force posture to ensure its survival.

And thus any Arab/Muslim leader who makes peace with Israel will be branded a traitor.

So Israel has to do a unilateral withdrawal from West Bank, much like it did from Gaza Strip or South Lebanon.

Dismantle the settlements, withdraw from West Bank, establish very heavy fortifications with tunnel detectors and Iron Dome Batteries placed all along to protect Israel.

Jerusalem can remain under Israeli control until the Palestinians are mature enough to administer a site which is holy to all 3 Religions and then can be shared.

 

[PteX]

well Jerusalem is also Holy to the Muslims and its not like they will give it up so easy. Shared administration or mutual recognition of freedom of access to holy places could be the answer here. By being a bit lenient on Jerusalem, Israel can turn a majority of Muslim countries into its favour because then the conflict will no more be about Judaism vs Islam but Israel vs Arabs.

The conflict is between Israel vs Arabs, as one smart commenter said, the Muslims just took up the mantle of hatred of Jews because the Prophet was Arab(So Ummah should stick together on this issue if no other kind of mentality).

The Muslim holy places are already administered by Muslims, there is no argument here. They demand Jerusalem which was liberated in the 67' war.

No Muslim was or ever will be denied the opportunity to visit and pray at their holy sites, while all Jews and other religions were denied access to Jerusalem during different times of Muslim rule over Jerusalem. Many Grand Mufti's of Jerusalem preached and still preach the slaughtering of Jews even today.

Imagine some non-Muslims demanding Mecca or Medina, this is the equivalent of Arabs demanding Jerusalem.

 

[Solomon2]

well Jerusalem is also Holy to the Muslims and its not like they will give it up so easy.

We Jews don't think the claim is equal, either on religious or historical grounds. For Jews Jerusalem is the religious and cultural center, if not also the political one. After the Crusades Jerusalem dropped in importance to Muslims. Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Koran at all.

From my point of view the Dome of the Rock was built primarily as the equivalent of a medieval tourist trap. Its primary use today is as a symbol, something like saying "as long as we Muslims have it and the Jews don't we are supreme and have G-d's blessing and can do whatever we want to non-Muslims everywhere around the world."

In short, for Muslims Jerusalem is the key symbol promoting extremism and bigotry. Why you're not in a hurry to give up such a liability is a puzzle.

Shared administration or mutual recognition of freedom of access to holy places could be the answer here. By being a bit lenient on Jerusalem, Israel can turn a majority of Muslim countries into its favour because then the conflict will no more be about Judaism vs Islam but Israel vs Arabs.

Tried and failed: the Muslim waqf already controls the Temple Mount and has since 1967. Perhaps you aren't aware of that?

 

[Mercenary]

Some points you are right, some points you are wrong.

Israel said it would be the first to recognize a Palestinian state and it will be, whether the Palestinians want it or not.

The peace process is dead when these Arabs demand Jerusalem as the their capital when everyone knows that Jerusalem is the holiest place in Judaism and giving it up would be the end of Israel(Which they made clear is their eventual goal).

First of all you have to realize any Palestinian leader recognizing Israel will be branded a traitor. And thus, Israel has to make unilateral moves. Like withdrawing from Gaza in 2005 or South Lebanon in 2000. It has to do a similar thing in West Bank.

How will sharing Jerusalem be the end of Israel?

Jerusalem was a divided city before 1967 and Israel existed just fine. Obviously Jews were barred from praying at the Temple Mount but the Temple Mount will remain under Israeli control.

The real end of Israel will be the growing Arab population which will make Jews a minority in Israel and the growing Israeli immigration to North America and Australia. In my company alone, there are several Israelis who left Israel and moved to Canada due to bad security situation.

Israel cannot continue to build settlements and expect to remain a Jewish majority state. It cannot expel the Palestinians living in West Bank and nor can it absorb them as they will destroy the whole concept of a Jewish state.

And thus, the only option left is a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from West Bank.

 

[PteX]

First of all you have to realize any Palestinian leader recognizing Israel will be branded a traitor. And thus, Israel has to make unilateral moves. Like withdrawing from Gaza in 2005 or South Lebanon in 2000. It has to do a similar thing in West Bank.

How will sharing Jerusalem be the end of Israel?

Jerusalem was a divided city before 1967 and Israel existed just fine. Obviously Jews were barred from praying at the Temple Mount but the Temple Mount will remain under Israeli control.

The real end of Israel will be the growing Arab population which will make Jews a minority in Israel and the growing Israeli immigration to North America and Australia. In my company alone, there are several Israelis who left Israel and moved to Canada due to bad security situation.

Israel cannot continue to build settlements and expect to remain a Jewish majority state. It cannot expel the Palestinians living in West Bank and nor can it absorb them as they will destroy the whole concept of a Jewish state.

And thus, the only option left is a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from West Bank.

Israel existed in a sense of half a state, since the deepest of prayers ended with "Next year in Jerusalem", which finally happened after the 6 Day war. The Jewish nation will never give up Jerusalem, even an inch.

As i said, i agree with the Palestinian state whether the Arabs like it or not. Israel, when the peace talks fail since Arabs will try to destroy us no matter how much land is given to them, and mark any leader who tries to bring peace as a traitor like you said, will draw the lines of the Nation.

The land occupied by the Arabs will be theirs to do what they will, all Jewish land will become a part of the undivided Israel and Jerusalem as her capital.
Israeli Muslims will administer the Muslim holy sites, as Israeli Christians administer the Christian holy sites.

Let them rot like Gaza for all i care.

 

[FaujHistorian]

That's a fantastic achievement but I am not surprised. Jewish people back in 1942 were much more industrious, traders and farmers compared to many many other groups in the region.

Here are some excerpts from a book (I read long time ago so I may not be exact on some of the details/dates) by a young Pakistani captain (who back then was part of the mighty British-Indian army deployed in the Middle East).

1. It is January 17 1942, Our convoy is moving from Baghdad to Cairo tomorrow. We have pacified Iraqis and brought peace here. The cafes are filled with good looking Iraqi women. My fellow captain Scott is enjoying their company. Too bad I can't participate. I am married.

2. Our convoy just crossed Jordan. Now we are driving through desert studded with beautiful farms. It turns out that all of them are owned by Jewish families. In many of these farms, young boys and girls are frolicking in the swimming pools. Beautiful girls wave at us and we all wave back.

3. Our convoy stops and we are surrounded by Arab kids begging for cigarettes. I feel sad to see how Arabs are behaving like beggars while Jewish people are so full of life, so hard working.

4. We are staying close to Haifa. Someone says everyone must visit the local bars in Haifa. I don't drink, but my fellow officer says don't worry we are going their to enjoy the best freshly squeezed orange juice in the world. In the evening I visit one of the bars with my fellow officers. Orange juice was remarkable. Haifa is truly heaven on earth.

5. Our convoy is now driving to Cairo. I am going to miss Haifa.


This was a short trip through modern day Israel that left lifelong impression on the young captain.

I hope you guys now realize this thread should only focus on the achievements of Jewish people. It is unfair to compare them with the Arabs.

For trade you need open and friendly societies that are fully connected in global connections. And that's why Arabs or other tribal societies cannot do well in trade. No way. Off course there are tiny exceptions like Dubai.

Peace to all.




Source: Colonel (retired) Mohammad Khan in his book "War cometh" (Bejang Aamad - a story of the second World War).

 

[PteX]

That's a fantastic achievement but I am not surprised. Jewish people back in 1942 were much more industrious, traders and farmers compared to many many other groups in the region.

Here are some excerpts from a book (I read long time ago so I may not be exact on some of the details/dates) by a young Pakistani captain (who back then was part of the mighty British-Indian army deployed in the Middle East).

1. It is January 17 1942, Our convoy is moving from Baghdad to Cairo tomorrow. We have pacified Iraqis and brought peace here. The cafes are filled with good looking Iraqi women. My fellow captain Scott is enjoying their company. Too bad I can't participate. I am married.

2. Our convoy just crossed Jordan. Now we are driving through desert studded with beautiful farms. It turns out that all of them are owned by Jewish families. In many of these farms, young boys and girls are frolicking in the swimming pools. Beautiful girls wave at us and we all wave back.

3. Our convoy stops and we are surrounded by Arab kids begging for cigarettes. I feel sad to see how Arabs are behaving like beggars while Jewish people are so full of life, so hard working.

4. We are staying close to Haifa. Someone says everyone must visit the local bars in Haifa. I don't drink, but my fellow officer says don't worry we are going their to enjoy the best freshly squeezed orange juice in the world. In the evening I visit one of the bars with my fellow officers. Orange juice was remarkable. Haifa is truly heaven on earth.

5. Our convoy is now driving to Cairo. I am going to miss Haifa.


This was a short trip through modern day Israel that left lifelong impression on the young captain.

I hope you guys now realize this thread should only focus on the achievements of Jewish people. It is unfair to compare them with the Arabs.

For trade you need open and friendly societies that are fully connected in global connections. And that's why Arabs or other tribal societies cannot do well in trade. No way. Off course there are tiny exceptions like Dubai.

Peace to all.




Source: Colonel (retired) Mohammad Khan in his book "War cometh" (Bejang Aamad - a story of the second World War).

This looks like a pretty interesting book, i was actually searching for a good one to read.

Too bad it's only in Urdu...

 

[Mercenary]

Israel existed in a sense of half a state, since the deepest of prayers ended with "Next year in Jerusalem", which finally happened after the 6 Day war. The Jewish nation will never give up Jerusalem, even an inch.

As i said, i agree with the Palestinian state whether the Arabs like it or not. Israel, when the peace talks fail since Arabs will try to destroy us no matter how much land is given to them, and mark any leader who tries to bring peace as a traitor like you said, will draw the lines of the Nation.

The land occupied by the Arabs will be theirs to do what they will, all Jewish land will become a part of the undivided Israel and Jerusalem as her capital.
Israeli Muslims will administer the Muslim holy sites, as Israeli Christians administer the Christian holy sites.

Let them rot like Gaza for all i care.

And what about the West Bank? What do you propose to do about that?

 

[PteX]

And what about the West Bank? What do you propose to do about that?

Exchange equivalent lands between the two countries, they take the Arabs that call themselves as Palestinians(They are prominent) and no more settlements, the line is finally defined.