Islam and punishment

[TankMan]

So what you are saying is that a certain number of scholars having an honest dialogue will solve these problems?

That would be the first step towards a solution. The intricacies of theology can be handled easily, the intricacies of dishonesty can not.

Is it really as simple as this?

There will obviously be resistance from political mullahs, extremists and outlying sects like the Ahmadis, but as long as the mainstream scholars are fine with it, yes, it is really that simple.

Keep in mind that religion wasn't meant to be complicated - it is people that have complicated it. As long as people want to keep it simple, it will remain simple.

Can you suggest a list of such scholars that a majority would be willing to accept as the arbitrators of defining this common core?

I can spend a long time compiling a list of scholars that will be accepted by the majority, that isn't difficult, if tedious. The problem is getting them to sit down and have an honest dialogue. Alternatively, I can compile a list of scholars who already are honest and willing to have honest dialogue - but then the problem will be getting the majority to accept them.

It's entirely possible if someone with a decent amount of followers was to take the initiative.

And if that cannot be realistically achieved, then my suggestion of separating matters of religion from matters of state remains the only viable way forward.

It can be realistically achieved, but it is difficult and requires initiative.

Your solution isn't a solution at all, it's simply running away from the problems by absolving states' governments from the responsibility of solving them, as I have explained in my previous post. The issues will remain. The disunity will remain. The political conflicts will remain. All the actual problems will remain, only the symptoms of those problems, i.e a broken version of Islamic Law on a governmental level, will be hidden.

@Syed.Ali.Haider the problem with your argument is that you fail to recognize the fact that the issues being faced by states with their ''Islamic Law'' are the symptoms of the problems - not the actual problems.

It's not a question of either 'fixing' Islamic Law or abandoning it. It's a question of fixing the social and political issues of the Muslim world. Abandoning Islamic Law on a governmental level does absolutely nothing to solve those issues.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

What about Islam and eternal punishment & reward after we are dead and gone?
That would be more interesting.

 

[JonAsad]

What about Islam and eternal punishment & reward after we are dead and gone?
That would be more interesting.

Most of us will go to hell- so no Its not interesting at all-

 

[VCheng]

It's not a question of either 'fixing' Islamic Law or abandoning it. It's a question of fixing the social and political issues of the Muslim world. Abandoning Islamic Law on a governmental level does absolutely nothing to solve those issues.

Can you give any examples since the fall of the Ottoman Empire whether any Muslim country has been able to solve these issues relating to implementing "true" Islam? If no one has been able to do it, what makes one believe any of your proposed solutions are realistically achievable now? You are right, it is not a matter of fixing Islamic Law or abandoning it, it is more a matter of implementing it. And if it is unimplementable by all Muslim countries over a century, it pretty much can not exist, except in the imagination of a diehard few, or a a private matter of citizens with nothing to do with the State.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Most of us will go to hell- so no Its not interesting at all-

Except homosexual Muslims? Liberal interpretation these days is that practicing muslims gays have nothing to fear!
The Secular society & great secular minds who know everything have informally annulled the direct commandments and guarantees compliance of its 21st century opinion on such matters even in hereafter.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Syed.Ali.Haider I have been observing the debate and chuckling away. Ever tried grabbing bar of soap in bath with suds?

@Raja.Pakistani I am going to ask you a very, verry simple question. Please answer it without obfuscating. Is there anything preventing you from being a good Muslim in UK?

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider I have been observing the debate and chuckling away. Ever tried grabbing bar of soap in bath with suds?

For one like you chuckling, there are tens more who are fuming at my audacity to dare question their self-righteous religious and moral authority.

After all, this was said by a TTA above: ".....those who have nothing to do with Islam, they might have never prayed all their life, fasted, paid zakat, learnt Arabic to read Quran, tafseer, hadith, nothing but they present their views on Islam and Islamic jurisprudence as great scholars of all time. People are talking about punishments in Islam without knowing let alone understanding the concept of Hadd and Taazeer, what a joke. You ask them if they have read Tafseer Kabir an they'll have no idea what is Tafseer Kabir and yet they have audacity to vomit about Islamic jurisprudence. Imagine a rikshaw driver telling me about medicine."

Now excuse me, I have to go outside and wash my Qingqi.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Syed.Ali.Haider Well this is about debate. To win an argument with logic and reason. If one is so sure then you let your thoughts get dissected.

As for as rest you said all I will say is "shove it". We ain't sat in some Madaris in some mountain somewhere where you have choice of saying "yes" or "yes".

It is called freedom of expression that I must admit PDF delivers in comparison to so many other so called discussion fora. Credit where credit is due.

 

[VCheng]

@Raja.Pakistani I am going to ask you a very, verry simple question. Please answer it without obfuscating. Is there anything preventing you from being a good Muslim in UK?

The straight answer is dangerous, for it means admitting that state enforcement of Islam is not a requisite for being a good Muslim, thereby undermining the whole demand for a State enforced religion.

It is called freedom of expression that I must admit PDF delivers in comparison to so many other so called discussion fora. Credit where credit is due.

Agreed. The fact that members like me are tolerated is a testament to this credit.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The straight answer is dangerous, for it means admitting that state enforcement of Islam is not a requisite for being a good Muslim, thereby undermining the whole demand for a State enforced religion.

Bingo. Syed you earn a pos+ rating for that golden nugget. The truth is simple. It is so simple that I want to pull my finger nails out in frustration.

If you can live in UK or any other Western secular country then how the hell can you *bleep* *bleep* look me in the eye and with a *bleep* straight face say "secularism" is bad?

Ever heard the *bleep* saying "voting with your feet"?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

@Raja.Pakistani I am going to ask you a very, verry simple question. Please answer it without obfuscating. Is there anything preventing you from being a good Muslim in UK?

I think I have been explained it before. Let me give you a short answer this time.

Can I follow Islam in secular country?
at personal level : Answer is yes
at state level : Answer is NO

Islam prefer boht as it want you to run all economic, social, political affairs of a country according to Islamic principles while secularism have different concept of halal or haram or have different concept of morality. Since there is no option of Islamic laws at state level in multi-faith country where Muslims are in tiny minority so you can only apply Islam to yourself and you can not stop immoral things which are legal but you can stop yourself doing these things

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think I have been explained it before. Let me give you a short answer this time.

Can I follow Islam in secular country?
at personal level : Answer is yes
at state level : Answer is NO

Islam prefer boht as it want you to run all economic, social, political affairs of a country according to Islamic principles while secularism have different concept of halal or haram or have different concept of morality. Since there is no option of Islamic laws at state level in multi-faith country where Muslims are in tiny minority so you can only apply Islam to yourself and you can not stop immoral things which are legal but you can stop yourself doing these things

We are talking to you as a person or as a individuel. Do you think you can practice Islam to it's fullest that you think your required to by Islam in UK? This is a simple binary question with yes or no.

 

[Norwegian]

Essentially, adopting secularism isn't a solution, it's just running away from the problem by taking away the responsibility states and governments have in solving it.

It is NOT the responsibility of the state to meddle with its citizen's religion. How long would it take for you to understand that?

But, some people do argue that modesty is a core aspect, they the conflate Burkas with modesty, therefore making Burkas a part of the core of Islam, even though they're not. That's how we end up with people saying that women ''can't be good Muslims unless they wear a Burka''.

Again, modesty is a social construct. It can only be imposed by state in public. What its citizens do in private is none of its concern!

So what you are saying is that a certain number of scholars having an honest dialogue will solve these problems? Is it really as simple as this? Can you suggest a list of such scholars that a majority would be willing to accept as the arbitrators of defining this common core? Who can put together such a trustworthy group?

Simple answer: You can't. Its impossible to have a brand of clergy or Islamic scholars that millions of Muslims would agree on.

And if that cannot be realistically achieved, then my suggestion of separating matters of religion from matters of state remains the only viable way forward.

It is the only solution.

What about Islam and eternal punishment & reward after we are dead and gone?
That would be more interesting.

If you are gonna get punished for all your sins after death, why even worry about punishment in the current world?

Most of us will go to hell- so no Its not interesting at all-

The straight answer is dangerous, for it means admitting that state enforcement of Islam is not a requisite for being a good Muslim, thereby undermining the whole demand for a State enforced religion.

Exactly!

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

We are talking to you as a person or as a individuel. Do you think you can practice Islam to it's fullest that you think your required to by Islam in UK? This is a simple binary question with yes or no.

again you are just repeating same thing as you are limiting Islam to just your private lives

Is concept of morality of secular countries compatible with Islamic concept of morality? Do they share same opinions about allowing freedom of homosexuality, prostitution, drinking wines and about polygamy, age of consent, abortion divorce and inheritance laws etc ?

simple yes or no will be enough

 

[Indus Pakistan]

again you are just repeating same thing as you are limiting Islam to just your private lives

Is concept of morality of secular countries compatible with Islamic concept of morality? Do they share same opinions about allowing freedom of homosexuality, prostitution, drinking wines and about polygamy, age of consent, abortion divorce and inheritance laws etc ?

simple yes or no will be enough

No. I don't find any of these contradicting or in any way reducing my beliefs. Now what is your answer to the same question?