Islam and punishment

[VCheng]

well its democracy so majority should have right to make a government or to implement laws irrespective of source of these laws

when we claim to be Muslim then we willingly accept the laws of Allah so Islamic laws should be applicable on us unless we become non Muslim or follow selective Islam in our lives

But that is the question: Should the State have any role in implementing such religious laws and the punishments for breaking them?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Would you support secularism in Pakistan?

Secularism is second best option if you could not put proper correct and fair Islamic system in place and if there is no clear majority of one religion but you know Islam want Muslims to run all affairs of their lives and state according to Islamic principles whether its politics, banking, judiciary, education,social welfare system etc so that's where secularism is not compatible to Islam because it limit Islam in just your private life

 

[VCheng]

Secularism is second best option if you could not put proper correct and fair Islamic system in place and if there is no clear majority of one religion but you know Islam want Muslims to run all affairs of their lives and state according to Islamic principles whether its politics, banking, judiciary, education,social welfare system etc so that's where secularism is not compatible to Islam because it limit Islam in just your private life

Which then begs the million dollar question: Just what is this "correct and fair" Islamic system and who gets to determine how its gets implemented?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Secularism is second best option if you could not put proper correct and fair Islamic system in place and if there is no clear majority of one religion

What your saying above does not fit with what you say below - in red.

but you know Islam want Muslims to run all affairs of their lives and state according to Islamic principles whether its politics, banking, judiciary, education,social welfare system etc so that's where secularism is not compatible to Islam because it limit Islam in just your private life

No I don't know. I asked you a simple question. Are you saying Islam requires Muslim's to run their affairs according to Sharia? Yes or No would do nicely. Please no prevarication.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Which then begs the million dollar question: Just what is this "correct and fair" Islamic system and who gets to determine how its gets implemented?

App tu sirf hujatein aur baal ki khaal nikalteyy ho

Proper Islamic system is based on teaching of Islamic sources and agreed by scholars and implement by legitimate state or government and should be applicable to all Muslims fairly whether they are poor or rich, powerful or weak

what I said was that no random guys or some group should have this right to impose their version of islam on people or punish them on street without any trial proper procedure and lac of evidences etc. It should be only legitimate state elected by Muslims to run their country not just few self proclaimed reformers

What your saying above does not fit with what you say below - in red.


No I don't know. I asked you a simple question. Are you saying Islam requires Muslim's to run their affairs according to Sharia? Yes or No would do nicely. Please no prevarication.

I said secularism is best option for a society where there is no clear majority of one religion unlike in Pakistan where majority claim to be Muslims

and second yes Islam ask Muslims to run all affairs of their country and their personal lives according to teaching of Islam thatswhwere it differ to secularism because in secularism state or its polices are independent of any religion so they may approve those things which Islam forbid . I cannot change Islam according to my wishes or my secular principles

 

[TankMan]

@TankMan @syedali73 You both have more knowledge on the issue at hand. Inputs?


Under the Ottoman Caliphate, even homosexuality was decriminalised long before Western liberals had any idea what happened. Its demise is the main reason why we have to deal with radical extremist nutcases today:

The Ottoman empire's secular history undermines sharia claims | Tehmina Kazi | Comment is free | The Guardian

The general idea behind Islamic punishments was always to deter crimes. Punishments were to be kept severe so as to show how severe the crimes were, and to deter people from committing them. They weren't intended to be widespread - punishments are supposed to be rare. So if the Ottomans punished very few people, they had the right idea there.

But it is important to realize that the Islamic system is based on justice and also requires a welfare system - so that no one is driven to commit crimes by desperation.

As for homosexuality, the condition of being homosexual can never be criminalized - in Islam, it was always homosexual acts (i.e intercourse) that were criminalized since it falls under the category of zina. That obviously does not mean the state needs to worry about keeping an eye on homosexual people so that they can be punished when they do it, what it means is that being homosexual is not something to be encouraged or made public.

Are you saying Islam requires Muslim's to run their affairs according to Sharia? Yes or No would do nicely.

Yes. Islam requires Muslims to run their affairs according to Islamic principles and Sharia. Obviously, a religion would require you to actually follow it.

The problem we have nowadays is that nobody has any idea what Shariat is and what it entails. People constantly mix Fiqh and Fatwas with Shariat, and the confusion is so great that trying to implement this 'version' of Shariat results in injustice. Therefore, in order to prevent injustice, it is better from an Islamic perspective if we don't run our affairs according to this corrupted form of Sharia.

Today adultery is punishable by stoning, whereas the Koran prescribes 100 lashes—and 80 lashes for falsely accusing another.

This is a good example of this corrupt version of Shariat we nowadays have to deal with.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

but you know Islam want Muslims to run all affairs of their lives and state according to Islamic principles whether its politics, banking, judiciary, education,social welfare system etc

Please refer to what you say in red. You state what Islam wants. You are quite explicit about this. This is not a opinion you express but what you think Islam requires. In other words Islam requires Sharia law. If this is the case why are you choosing to live in a country that does not accept any precept of Sharia?

Please don't impress me by the oft repeated excuse of education, jobs or some other temporal reason. If you or your parents or their parents could move you certainly are in better position to move out.

so that's where secularism is not compatible to Islam because it limit Islam in just your private life

If this is the case why are you living in UK? By mere fact of you living in UK your provide ample evidence by default that secularism is compatible with Islam. You are living proof of that.

* @Syed.Ali.Haider Read this thread Racist Uygur Mob violently attacks single woman in Turkey. | Page 3

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Please refer to what you say in red. You state what Islam wants. You are quite explicit about this. This is not a opinon you express but what you think Islam requires. In other words Islam requires Sharia law. If this is the case why are you choosing to live in a country that does not accept any precept of Sharia?
Please don't impress me by the oft repeated excuse of education, jobs or some other temporal reason. If you or your parents or their parents could move you certainly are in better position to move out.

There are many secular principles or values which may be compatible to Islamic principles or laws. I am not choosing to live in Britain because i love western culture but i said it before that although i am living n Britain which is multicultural society so secularism is best option for such society . I as a Muslim believe that Islam want Muslim to run state according to Islamic principles or laws but its not practical to demand sharia laws in uk because we don't have Muslims in majority to elect government who establish Islamic sharia for us . Such demand from british Muslims will be naïve in a country where they are in minority and we don't have any such perfect model of Islam in any country right now so you don't have any option

If this is the case why are you living in UK? By mere fact of you living in UK your provide ample evidence by default that secularism is compatible with Islam. You are living proof of that.

I can follow Islam in my personal life in uk but state of uk, its foreign policies and how they run their country is based on principles of secularism while Islam want you to run it according to Islamic principles. Islam say wine is haram but uk say its fine if people want to drink it. Islam say interest is haram but UK government say its fine. Islam say prostitution/homosexuality is immoral thing but uk may give license to people to do prostitution etc. Islam may say polygamy is fine but uk government may oppose it. Islam may ask Muslim country/ruler to not take the side of aggressor while uk may join war adventure of US for political interests and thats where conflict arise. You see i cannot twist Islam based on my personal like or dislike. Islam is what it is

 

[Norwegian]

I as a Muslim believe that Islam want Muslim to run state according to Islamic principles or laws but its not practical to demand sharia laws in uk because we don't have Muslims in majority to elect government who establish Islamic sharia for us .

Exactly. That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Why on earth would British Muslims demand Sharia in Britain when the Muslim majority states such as Saudi Arabia and Iran have effectively become shitholes for their people following Sharia-based laws? Even if Muslims once become a majority in Britain, they would still have no right to demand Shariah in a multicultural, multiethnic society of UK.

You see i cannot twist Islam based on my personal like or dislike. Islam is what it is

Islam doesn't demand anything other than humans to become pious and saint-like beings. If Shariah laws as they are practiced in Saudi Arabia, ISIS or Iran have turned people into satanic monsters, what's the point of following such laws anyway?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Exactly. That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Why on earth would British Muslims demand Sharia in Britain when the Muslim majority states such as Saudi Arabia and Iran have effectively become shitholes for their people following Sharia-based laws? Even if Muslims once become a majority in Britain, they would still have no right to demand Shariah in a multicultural, multiethnic society of UK.


Islam doesn't demand anything other than humans to become pious and saint-like beings. If Shariah laws as they are practiced in Saudi Arabia, ISIS or Iran have turned people into satanic monsters, what's the point of following such laws anyway?

Democracy is rule of majority. Problem is people judge sharia based on inhuman acts of ISIS or talibans..that's not how sharia should operate.. Saudia arbia is running by dictators and these Saudi prince who have one laws for themselves and different for others are not Islamic leaders.

 

[Norwegian]

Democracy is rule of majority.

There cannot be any democracy unless there are inalienable basic human rights present for all citizens. Such human rights should be freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to vote and so on. Therefore all the best democracies are liberal democracies:
Liberal democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An Islamic democracy cannot be a liberal one as it would run counter to the above said principles such as freedom of speech.

 

[VCheng]

Proper Islamic system is based on teaching of Islamic sources and agreed by scholars and implement by legitimate state or government and should be applicable to all Muslims fairly whether they are poor or rich, powerful or weak

So please tell us just where does such an Islamic Nirvana exist in the world today? Nowhere? Then why not?

The problem we have nowadays is that nobody has any idea what Shariat is and what it entails. People constantly mix Fiqh and Fatwas with Shariat, and the confusion is so great that trying to implement this 'version' of Shariat results in injustice. Therefore, in order to prevent injustice, it is better from an Islamic perspective if we don't run our affairs according to this corrupted form of Sharia.

You have described the problem well, but what could be a possible solution to this situation? How does a society begin the deal with the demons it itself has unleashed?

 

[Norwegian]

You have described the problem well, but what could be a possible solution to this situation? How does a society begin the deal with the demons it itself has unleashed?

He already gave you the solution: Complete reformation of Islam.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

So please tell us just where does such an Islamic Nirvana exist in the world today? Nowhere? Then why not?

because they are not united among themselves and are busy in killing each others and are financially weaker as well and depend on secular forces. You have to be powerful and independent in order to establish your own system of government otherwise you will be dictate by others

 

[Norwegian]

You have to be powerful and independent in order to establish your own system of government otherwise you will be dictate by others

You imply Saudis, ISIS and Iranians are following current messed up form of Shariah because it is "dictated" by other secular powers?