Islam and punishment

[SQ8]

As the article says, the Quran is actually a far more benevolent text than the other major scriptures. And yet, it is the Muslim countries where the punishments are the more strict and indeed horrific. So it must be the cultural interpretations, as you put it, that are contributing to this situation. The question to ask is this: Should this be changed, and if so, how?

How can you is the big question. Interestingly as a matter of more relevance to us, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan for all his good efforts to bring Muslims to modernity made a mistake as he inadvertently encouraged the dissolution or rather irrelevance of many Madressas that were providing the service of passing on religious knowledge based on that of the original preachers in the subcontinent. So much so that only Deoband and Bareilvi survived as proper schools. That led to a loss of what was nearly a 1000 year development process of knowledge that began with the Prophet and culminated in the preachers who arrived here and understood local customs and ideals. What was left then were uneducated( lest we continue to confuse a paper degree awarded as education) or less than astute individuals who with their lack of knowledge and the continued feeling of being isolated and beaten(by infidels) resorted to extreme ideals and greater control over society. That permeated out to Deoband too.

Had Sir Syed incorporated that system instead of rejecting it outright there may not have been a such a large base ready to promote extremism in Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

Agreed. But we need to corner some and squeeze and dribble some of that hypocracy out of them .... ha ha ha

No. What they do is their problem. We need to create a better narrative so that others may see them for the frauds that they are, that is all.

Had Sir Syed incorporated that system instead of rejecting it outright there may not have been a such a large base ready to promote extremism in Pakistan.

Good point, but now that we are here, the answers we seek must be relevant to the 21st century. Given what we have in Pakistan today, how do we attempt to do this?

 

[SQ8]

Good point, but now that we are here, the answers we seek must be relevant to the 21st century. Given what we have in Pakistan today, how do we attempt to do this?

Essentially we do not. What we need is more of this.

Sounds horrible yes. But sometimes a drunken person has to experience a liver failure before they realize their folly(or not).
Because when addiction reaches the point it has in Pakistan for these extreme ideals then either the addict is dragged onto rehab( read invasion and serious culling, which no sane power would like to do) or is allowed to rot away in the hopes that it has a epiphany and takes itself to rehab.
It is also likely that it does not take itself to rehab and eventually dies away or turns into a hobo. The former may provide fertile grounds for a very new entity whilst the latter continues to be miserable until some good fortune comes to it(which means another sinusoidal positive peak before returning to old habits) or good Samaritan shoots it in the head.

And Im waxing analogies for a good reason here.

 

[VCheng]

Essentially we do not. What we need is more of this.

Sounds horrible yes. But sometimes a drunken person has to experience a liver failure before they realize their folly(or not).
Because when addiction reaches the point it has in Pakistan for these extreme ideals then either the addict is dragged onto rehab( read invasion and serious culling, which no sane power would like to do) or is allowed to rot away in the hopes that it has a epiphany and takes itself to rehab.
It is also likely that it does not take itself to rehab and eventually dies away or turns into a hobo. The former may provide fertile grounds for a very new entity whilst the latter continues to be miserable until some good fortune comes to it(which means another sinusoidal positive peak before returning to old habits) or good Samaritan shoots it in the head.

And Im waxing analogies for a good reason here.

I understand you analogies and your reasons for using them.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @Oscar

I don't know about you guy's but I feel the increasing shadow of China over Pakistan will create ripples that could help to stear us in the correct direction. In other words that might act as a catalyst for change.What do you guy's think of that?

External influences helped to get us where we are today. Of course I am not in denial that forces inside Pakistan also played a hand but the Cold War helped to decimate leftists in Pakistan and instead fortified the Mullah.

Now we might have external geopolitics aligning in such a way as to create enabling environment to role back the forces of medievalism.

 

[SQ8]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @Oscar

I don't know about you guy's but I feel the increasing shadow of China over Pakistan will create ripples that could help to stear us in the correct direction. In other words that might act as a catalyst for change.What do you guy's think of that?

External influences helped to get us where we are today. Of course I am not in denial that forces inside Pakistan also played a hand but the Cold War helped to decimate leftists in Pakistan and instead fortified the Mullah.

Now we might have external geopolitics aligning in such a way as to create enabling environment to role back the forces of medievalism.

There will be positive influence but nothing that will change Pakistani society outright unless the Chinese invade and do a repeat of their great cultural revolution here in Pakistan.
Any change in mindset has to come via intelligentsia, and what is needed is a Sir Syed Ahmed Khan(or more people) for today. It is clearly not Imran Khan so lets put that out there, nor is it Tahir-ul-Qadri. What is needed is a massive movement in society to cleanse Pakistan of these fake Islamic ideals once and for all regardless of the brutality and callous attitude it takes towards human life.

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @Oscar

I don't know about you guy's but I feel the increasing shadow of China over Pakistan will create ripples that could help to stear us in the correct direction. In other words that might act as a catalyst for change.What do you guy's think of that?

External influences helped to get us where we are today. Of course I am not in denial that forces inside Pakistan also played a hand but the Cold War helped to decimate leftists in Pakistan and instead fortified the Mullah.

Now we might have external geopolitics aligning in such a way as to create enabling environment to role back the forces of medievalism.

He said it very well here:

There will be positive influence but nothing that will change Pakistani society outright unless the Chinese invade and do a repeat of their great cultural revolution here in Pakistan.
Any change in mindset has to come via intelligentsia, and what is needed is a Sir Syed Ahmed Khan(or more people) for today. It is clearly not Imran Khan so lets put that out there, nor is it Tahir-ul-Qadri. What is needed is a massive movement in society to cleanse Pakistan of these fake Islamic ideals once and for all regardless of the brutality and callous attitude it takes towards human life.

The Chinese effect on Pakistani society will be minimal. All they will care for is that we do not sully Xinjiang. Nobody is going to touch us with a barge pole unless we ourselves make the effort to bring our society in the here and now instead of pining for the seventh century.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

He said it very well here:



The Chinese effect on Pakistani society will be minimal. All they will care for is that we do not sully Xinjiang. Nobody is going to touch us with a barge pole unless we ourselves make the effort to bring our society in the here and now instead of pining for the seventh century.

No. I don't of course expect anybody to come and clean our house. That is absurd. However would you agree external influences can effect what going on inside Pakistan. For example take a look at the number of Madaris in Pakistan. I think we all would agree that these Madaris are just hatcheries adding to the swamp of medievalism that has increasingly gained in our society.

The numbers of madaris and in particular the most radical madaris grew exponentially during the Afghan jihad. That architecture of jihad built over decade in the 1980s has been strangling Pakistan ever since. In the same way I am hoping the Chinese economic interests will create synergy between local progrssive forces and act as a leverage that begins the change. It took us over half a century to get us here and prpbably take another generation for any change to feed through.

If CPEC takes off expect huge interaction by Chinese with Pakistan. PA is already raising a division to protect Chinese workers. For CPEC to go anywhere will need open access and free flow of peoples from China to Pak and vice versa. This will lead to clashes of two contradictory cultures and I cannot see Pakistan going anywhere unless that contradiction is resolved. I think this will force minds at the top to focus on the issue in hand.

 

[VCheng]

No. I don't of course expect anybody to come and clean our house. That is absurd. However would you agree external influences can effect what going on inside Pakistan. For example take a look at the number of Madaris in Pakistan. I think we all would agree that these Madaris are just hatcheries adding to the swamp of medievalism that has increasingly gained in our society.

The numbers of madaris and in particular the most radical madaris grew exponentially during the Afghan jihad. That architecture of jihad built over decade in the 1980s has been strangling Pakistan ever since. In the same way I am hoping the Chinese economic interests will create synergy between local progrssive forces and act as a leverage that begins the change. It took us over half a century to get us here and prpbably take another generation for any change to feed through.

If CPEC takes off expect huge interaction by Chinese with Pakistan. PA is already raising a division to protect Chinese workers. For CPEC to go anywhere will need open access and free flow of peoples from China to Pak and vice versa. This will lead to clashes of two contradictory cultures and I cannot see Pakistan going anywhere unless that contradiction is resolved. I think this will force minds at the top to focus on the issue in hand.

The Chinese will come and stay in their own protected bubbles, build their projects and leave. That is all that will happen, and there will be no open access or free flow of any extent that you hope for. So I guess your possibility of Pakistan not going anywhere is the one more likely.

 

[syedali73]

And here I thought religious debates were not allowed

Apparently selected people are allowed to open and discuss or bash

Religious debates initiated for the purpose of maligning and ridiculing Islam are whole heartedly allowed because they are allowed under social issues etc. However, if someone gives a reference of Quran and Hadiht and challenges the ultra-liberal views of certain ignorants and Islamophobes, then all of a sudden it becomes proselytization and posters are warned and threads closed. Remember what happened to Malaysian gymnast thread? More interestingly, such threads are opened and then discussed or debated by those who have nothing to do with Islam, they might have never prayed all their life, fasted, paid zakat, learnt Arabic to read Quran, tafseer, hadith, nothing but they present their views on Islam and Islamic jurisprudence as great scholars of all time. People are talking about punishments in Islam without knowing let alone understanding the concept of Hadd and Taazeer, what a joke. You ask them if they have read Tafseer Kabir an they'll have no idea what is Tafseer Kabir and yet they have audacity to vomit about Islamic jurisprudence. Imagine a rikshaw driver telling me about medicine.

Rasool (PBUH) aur baaqi tamam khulafa (khulafa e salasa) ney tou jhak maari hey, asal Islam tou inko pata hey.

I could not find the name of the scholar saheb who put together 'Why harsh punishments are more prevalent in the Muslim world', was he too ashamed of putting his name just like the OP who doesn't display the flag of the country he disgraces from?

1. Why harsh punishments? Why not harsh punishments? What is the sole purpose of punishment? To encourage criminals to do again what they were punished for initially?

2. More prevalent in Muslim world? Which Muslim world? There are 52+ Muslim countries; how many of those exercise Hadd? Only KSA and perhaps Iran. Does this scholar saheb know the meaning of prevalence?

This great scholar saheb of Islam cant even distinguish between 'K' and 'Q' and he is commenting on Islamic jurisprudence and someone wants us to read and take this joker seriously. Only on PDF.

@TankMan @Gufi @Slav Defence @WAJsal

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The Chinese will come and stay in their own protected bubbles, build their projects and leave. That is all that will happen, and there will be no open access or free flow of any extent that you hope for. So I guess your possibility of Pakistan not going anywhere is the one more likely.

Indeed they will while CPEC is built up. However once the physical infrastructure is built trade outlet for all of Western China will be CPEC to Karachi/Gwadar port. That will entail massive amount of trade movement and with it comes open borders and movement of people. Please refer below.

China–Pakistan Economic Corridor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the economic imperative will act as a driver for change over the long term. Much as the last 50 years external geopolitics acted to foster the environment we have now in Pakistan. The coming dynamic will push toward undoing this. The Chinese are not investing $46 billion into the CPEC to then just walk away after building the corridor. That is being built as a a future trade routes.

Strangely this very trade route over 2000 years ago carried Buddhism into China from Gandhara what is now Pakistan and was centred near Taxila near Islamabad. Maybe the modern Silk road will blow in fresh ideas only this time in the other direction.

Silk Road transmission of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Important part of belief is to put our own desires and prejudices beneath God's.I personally see nothing wrong with Islamic punishment system but its just lack of due process which is objectionable. Every Tom, dick and harry should not have this right to punish people on street based on his personal judgement or interpretation of sharia as there should be proper procedure and trial system

 

[VCheng]

Indeed they will while CPEC is built up. However once the physical infrastructure is built trade outlet for all of Western China will be CPEC to Karachi/Gwadar port. That will entail massive amount of trade movement and with it comes open borders and movement of people. Please refer below.
..............

A good highway link will move a small volume of containerized goods, most months of the year, but this level of transport will not create the sort of extensive interaction that you are hoping for. This link will be important for Pakistan, no doubt, but nothing will be "massive" in terms of its impact on Western China.

Important part of belief is to put our own desires and prejudices beneath God's.I personally see nothing wrong with Islamic punishment system but its just lack of due process which is objectionable. Every Tom, dick and harry should not have this right to punish people on street based on his personal judgement or interpretation of sharia as there should be proper procedure and trial system

The important question to ask is whether beliefs are by choice, and whether the majority has the right to impose its practices on all under their control, with the authority of the State, including punishments. The OP raises this question in a very direct way, ans it is an important consideration for a country like Pakistan, given what is going on in the country right now, and its implications.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Important part of belief is to put our own desires and prejudices beneath God's.I personally see nothing wrong with Islamic punishment system but its just lack of due process which is objectionable. Every Tom, dick and harry should not have this right to punish people on street based on his personal judgement or interpretation of sharia as there should be proper procedure and trial system

Would you support secularism in Pakistan?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

The important question to ask is whether beliefs are by choice, and whether the majority has the right to impose its practices on all under their control, with the authority of the State, including punishments. The OP raises this question in a very direct way, ans it is an important consideration for a country like Pakistan, given what is going on in the country right now, and its implications.

well its democracy so majority should have right to make a government or to implement laws irrespective of source of these laws

when we claim to be Muslim then we willingly accept the laws of Allah so Islamic laws should be applicable on us unless we become non Muslim or follow selective Islam in our lives