Is Turkey a bad model for Arab states? Or is it a good model?

[Shapur]

I know the situation in Afghanistan. And Afghanistan is destined to stay as "Afghanistan" because of his multi ethnic multi cultural background. You and the other sides will continue to kill each other in the decades to come. that's not a model which I desire for Turkey.

For Kurds in Turkey, check your numbers. There is no 30 million Kurds. The number is often shown 12 million with Zazas included. Zazas are not Kurds, they are pro state different ethnic group.

30 million is estimated in four countries, Turkey 15-20 million, iraq 5-7 million, Iran 5-7 million, syria 2 million.

I didn't say just in Turkey.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

If you are going to discuss , please be polite. don't make fun of Islam and local traditions.

 

[Amolthebest]

Turky has secular values and have seeds of liberalization of western societies apart from they are democratic. But again they are not morally corrupt and broken kike western societies.They have best of both worlds. Actually they are true roll model for Islamic countries which are exact opposite.Leave aside Muslim countries they are roll model for every developing nation including India.

 

[RayKalm]

Oh come on guys, argue, but don't insult each other.

As I've said before, in terms of DEMOCRACY, the Turks, while the government is unIslamic, is an example for the Arabs because they have been suffering from dictatorship and human rights violations for decades. They look just a little north or northeast on the map, and wonder, how can a country so close to us that is Muslim be so much more free than what we are?

Now, that said, Turkey isn't the perfect example, but it is an example. There's a record of human right violations in Turkey, and according to statistics, Turkey is getting less free under the current government everyday.

Also, Quasar, I must add, the Turkish soldier in Afghanistan may actually be thought of in a good way if the Turks weren't helping the westerners and NATO forces in Afghanistan to begin with.

But that said, the Turks are doing much to help the Afghan people, being the only Muslim nation aside from the Albanians to be in NATO, and sharing a rich culture with the Afghans, the Turks are actually benefiting the Afghan people with their addition into Afghanistan rather than not.

NATO in Afghanistan - A Turkish civilian solution - YouTube

Afghanistan Kabul NATO - ISAF Turkish Peacekeeping Force - YouTube

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Deno recently you were making a scene because some members criticized certain politics of Ataturk. But now you are mocking certain religious clothing, what a shame. Just because you do not agree with certain people does not grand you to mock their belief.

And no, Ottoman was not a colonial power. It was an Islamic power period.

 

[Shapur]

^
There is no doubt Turkey and Afghanistan are brother countries. Actually Afghanistan was the first country to recognize the Turkish republic. The Ottomans and Afghan royalty are related by marriage. There is no doubt deep ties between the Turkish and Afghans people and We appreciate the help of Turkish people.

When I criticize Turkey, don't take it the wrong way. I only criticize the government and army's bad decisions in my opinion. I love Turkish people, culture and everything. So don't be offended if I criticize the government or army of Turkey.

 

[silko]

Turkey hasn't been the best to give Kurds right, we dont say we are the best either. but... we are improving, instead of talking to us and saying Kurds want a separate country go look at some polls and research and you will be surprised that many Kurds actually dont want a separate country, it is only pkk, bdp and some extremist Kurdish/marzist communist Kurds that wants it.

instead of talking to us about the rights of Kurds, you should look at other countries and how they look at Kurds, Syria for example doesnt recognize Kurds as an ethnicity. Iraq bombed and gassed them, Iran doesn't give them as much right as we do.

the more we keep giving them the more they will want from us... try to understand that. we came and we took it, there is people who gave their blood for that land. it's not something to vote over.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Oh come on guys, argue, but don't insult each other.

As I've said before, in terms of DEMOCRACY, the Turks, while the government is unIslamic, is an example for the Arabs because they have been suffering from dictatorship and human rights violations for decades. They look just a little north or northeast on the map, and wonder, how can a country so close to us that is Muslim be so much more free than what we are?

Now, that said, Turkey isn't the perfect example, but it is an example. There's a record of human right violations in Turkey, and according to statistics, Turkey is getting less free under the current government everyday.

Also, Quasar, I must add, the Turkish soldier in Afghanistan may actually be thought of in a good way if the Turks weren't helping the westerners and NATO forces in Afghanistan to begin with.

But that said, the Turks are doing much to help the Afghan people, being the only Muslim nation aside from the Albanians to be in NATO, and sharing a rich culture with the Afghans, the Turks are actually benefiting the Afghan people with their addition into Afghanistan rather than not.

Can you provide those statistics. As far as i know Turkey has leaped positively in democracy index since the AKP took over.
Freedom House which is the most known and academically accepted index for democracy says Turkey has increased its democracy considerably. Yes, in the recent years many journalists have been jailed. But wo don't know the verdict (funding, propogading PKK)etc. Even this Ece from the debate tried to show the fight against PKK as illegitimate by giving the example where 34 Kurds were unfortanutaly killed as a mistake (they were thought to be PKK members). The biggest terrorist organization is acting against Turkish civillians, and those who do not wear their uniform and fight cowardly from the mountains, write and try to recruit members with their writings. So you can't compare European countries (who do not have a threat like PKK) with Turkey. Turkey need to take certain radical steps in order to remove this threat from our soils.

 

[forummurat]

Most of the photos are gruesome but the last one is awesome!!!

You know if I wear a ninja clothes like these womens I would claim I have visited every country on this earth. Wjo can claim otherwise? I would just show them photos of ninja womens in Paris, New York, Shangai... Only thing that can be seen is Eyes...

This is a muslim clothing and ideal for protection.. It was a popular clothing in Ottoman Empire. Probably your grandmothers also wore that clothing

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

people need to understand something here....

there's a difference between ''copying'' versus simply implementing ''best practices'' approach


there is much to learn from Turkiye while on the other hand, there are some aspects of ''Arab societies'' which are worlds apart from aspects of Turkish society.


by the way, what is ''Arab society'' anyways; the Arab world is so extremely diverse. They each have their own sub-cultures. Even the language is quite different from country to country (except written). Ways of doing business are different.


i guess the main goal is -- end corruption, fight bureaucracy and promote business-friendly and investment-friendly policies....on the social side, allot sufficient funds towards education and human capital --which is what the Turks have done (and in some regions, still have work remaining to do)


how did the Turks do it? Well, taxes in Turkiye are high as hell.....cost of living is high. The government has the money to spend on human development; whereas many countries in the Arab world, especially in the Gulf, are welfare states. Things like fuel and wheat are subsidized. Subsidies cost a lot -- for e.g. Egypt spends almost 7% of its budget on subsidies!

 

[Deno]

This is a muslim clothing and ideal for protection.. It was a popular clothing in Ottoman Empire. Probably your grandmothers also wore that clothing

No they didn't my fathers side is Georgian Muslim and they never insisted on even scarf... Most I have seen was villiger type of scarf if woman wants to put it on herself... My grandfather was an Imam and he always said it is upto womens if they wantto wear it or not. A little piece of cloth does not decide who is muslim or who is moral...

My mother side was Horosan settlers in Tunceli whose head of family was persived as sheikhs and they never loosed their cultural clothes as Turkic people....

So no my forefathers never wear that stuff.. And I was not making fun of muslim women I was making fun of that idiot who was talking about ''Turks see Arabs as slaves'' ''Turks are infidels because they are tolerent people''....

 

[Karachiite]

Turkey should be a model for all Muslim majority countries not just the Arab countries.

 

[RayKalm]

Turkey should be a model for all Muslim majority countries not just the Arab countries.

Why so?

Can you provide those statistics. As far as i know Turkey has leaped positively in democracy index since the AKP took over.
Freedom House which is the most known and academically accepted index for democracy says Turkey has increased its democracy considerably. Yes, in the recent years many journalists have been jailed. But wo don't know the verdict (funding, propogading PKK)etc. Even this Ece from the debate tried to show the fight against PKK as illegitimate by giving the example where 34 Kurds were unfortanutaly killed as a mistake (they were thought to be PKK members). The biggest terrorist organization is acting against Turkish civillians, and those who do not wear their uniform and fight cowardly from the mountains, write and try to recruit members with their writings. So you can't compare European countries (who do not have a threat like PKK) with Turkey. Turkey need to take certain radical steps in order to remove this threat from our soils.

I've seen the statistics a few months back, I forgot where I've seen it, I'll try to search it up.

 

[agentny17]

Unfortunately, the Arabs of today are far removed from the Arabs during the time of the Sahaba of the Prophet (PBUH). I mean no disrespect to anybody but the truth is, the more and more I interact with all types of Arabs who live in Arab countries and Arabs who live abroad, my respect for the Arabs of today declines. Do you know how the Turks view you as inferior and their slaves because of the Ottoman empire? Do you know what the USA UK and all Western countries think of Arabs?

Not wanting to divert this thread, if there is even a passing thought amongst Arabs that Turkey is a model of some sort for the Arab world, then it goes to show the sheer level of underdevelopment of the Arab world, nothing more, nothing less. And this is coming from a Bangladeshi who would love to see the Islamic Khilafat revived. There is a serious, major, undeniable intellectual crisis in the Arab world (as well as in the rest of the Muslim world) which makes you people think of an infidel country like Turkey, where all sorts of debauchery is legal and admired, as a model. Sorry to say, if Arabs and Muslims do not have the brains to develop based on morality, based on the rules of Islam, then it is only us (Muslims and/or Arabs) who should be blamed.

If our knowledge, analysis, perception does not allow us to see beyond Turkey - a country which is officially completely infidel, and merely tries to copy Europe but does so very poorly - then the troubles that befall us can not be blamed on others. Parties like Hizb ut Tahrir (that call for the establishment of the Khilafat) are banned in Turkey, in Pakistan, in Bangladesh and many other so called "Muslim" countries because they are "slaves " of USA and the West. In Indonesia, as an example, the party's rally could attract over 100,000 followers.

Now, that was just an EXAMPLE. That does not purport to show either my support for/against Hizb-ut-Tahrir. It only goes to shows that Turkey that allows "gay parades" and "nudity" and "alcohol" in public just like any infidel country of Europe (those countries are masters of Turkey because Turkey imported these ideas from Europe, so nobody can deny that those countries are masters of Turkey) does not allow many other things, only one such example was given by me.

Of course, no country on earth today is perfect, but how is Turkey a model for all Arab or Muslim countries? If you think Turkey - an infidel country that is a member of NATO, that sent soldiers to Afghanistan at American orders, but that bans any trace of Islamic practise in real life in Turkey - is a model for the Arab world, then I can only say, with great regret and disappointment, the Arab world will be ruled by the West for one more century, at least.

Sorry if any of it sounded harsh, I had great respect for Arabs, the Prophet (PBUH) was Arab, the Sahaba of the Prophet (PBUH) were also Arabs but today's Arabs, from the actions of today's Arabs including your comments, seem to like being slaves of Turkey, or the West. When the Arabs return to Islam, I will respect Arabs again.

So, Turkey is bad. Freedom is bad. Arabs are bad... I have a question for you, you are a Muslim and you have to pray 5 times a day, what would you do if someone prevents you from praying in your country ? You would hate your country... Same applies to gay people, or people who drink. It is a life style choice, you don't decide what they do. You are not God to decide their fate. A country should treat people equally. Its only fair, and thats what Islam calls for fairness.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the question you people need to ask yourselves is not ''what the country does for its people'' --but also ask what the ''people can do for the country''

Turks are nationalistic people, very proud of their country. They work hard for their country. For a country that is situated in a strategic location (and despite lacking oil or other significant sources of domestic energy) they've done pretty well.

problem with some of the Muslim countries --- the literacy rates are below average; quality of education is not good; other social indicators show that there are wide income gaps; and corruption is endemic. In that scenario, there is less inclusiveness of mass majority of citizens in the economy. Informal sector of economy plays a dominating role over formal sectors of the economy.


well one thing Turkiye has which we have and which many other Muslim countries have --- we have young-aged populations. this is a huge assest. We need to pool our resources together and cooperate closely; but first we need to INVEST in the people


and to do that, you HAVE to enact education reforms. Education should be readily available, the curriculum/quality should be rich and it should be free --- or at least affordable to all.

Education is so important. You cannot put a price on education, education, education.