Is the Pakistan army martial?

[Icarus]

Dude, you are calling castes as tribes.

Castes are sub-tribes that align to a central tribe.

 

[Armstrong]

Does anyone know if the Buttts were remotely militant in nature ?

 

[INDIC]

Castes and tribes are different.


My tribe is Arain.

The reason for this is because If I meet another Arain chances are that we will be related in some way from distance.


Do you understand now?

A Punjabi tribe, awesome.

 

[RazPaK]

Does anyone know if the Buttts were remotely militant in nature ?

I think they just made everyone else fight.

 

[INDIC]

I think they just made everyone else fight.

Hey, do you have elected Panchayat system in Pakistan.

Does anyone know if the Buttts were remotely militant in nature ?

Bhutts were exploring knowledge like the great Aryabhatt or Bana Bhatt who wrote biography of King Harshvardhan.

 

[Desert Fox]

As one member on this very thread stated, martial was the title given to casts and ethnicities who fought for the British invaders against their own people or other people of the subcontinent. The Bangalis too were once "martial", that is until they resisted the britishers and thus become "un-martial".

In my opinion those who fought under Tipu Sultan (the first Muslim/indian subcontinental leader to have humiliatingly defeated the british invaders) were of Martial race status. The Afghans, who resisted the british every time they tried to occupy Afghanistan, and thus defeated the British during all three Anglo-Afghan wars, were Martial.



Tipu Sultan, a man whom the britishers feared even after his death.

And of course, the Anglo-Afghan wars:

My sword I grit upon my thigh. To guard our nation's ancient fame; It's champion
in this age am I, The Khattak Khan, Khushal my name.

 

[Dushmann]

Insecure troll.

it was fairly logical argument. though you could have easily countered it by naming few missiles and weapon systems named after Punjabi Muslims.

 

[humanfirst]

Does the martial tribes of pakistan-awans,arains,sethis etc have any particular martial art forms like kung fu..?

 

[xyxmt]

I think that gem was from none other than the great defence analyst and strategist (Sic), Zaid Hamid. Check out the portion where he mentions that a ghost army brandishing glittering swords descended on the battlefield to help Pakistani soldiers. The Indians on seeing them, ran away screaming!!! Wooot!

if you are referring a nut case in support for your arguments then you are a nut case yourself

 

[FaujHistorian]

Is the Pakistan army martial? – The Express Tribune


Are Punjabi Muslims martial? Do they have a history of war and conquest or at least of resistance to conquest? I ask because there’s no evidence of their martial character in our history. No general, no subedar, no thanedar, no wazir, no bakhshi of the Mughal empire was a Punjabi Muslim so far as I know.
I might be wrong about this but there are only two Punjabi Muslims named in Mughal texts. The first is Kamaal Khan Gakkhar, who submitted (without fighting) to Akbar in 1576, according to Akbarnama. The second is Jalal Khan Gakkhar, an old man named among the victims by Jahangir in a skirmish with Afghans in 1620. A third reference is indirect, the name of the author of Shah Jahan’s Padishahnama is Shaikh Abdul Hamid “Lahori”. The Ain-e-Akbari has one joint reference to Janjuas and Awans, calling them tribes conquered by Afghans. There are of course Punjabi Hindus (mainly Khatris) who fought for the Mughals with distinction. Like Todar Mal, who led the sapping at the siege of Chittorgarh against the Sisodiya Rajputs, and also settled the revenue system for Akbar. Maathir ul Umara says Todar Mal was born in Lahore, though British scholars thought this was Laharpur in Awadh.
Where are the Punjabi Muslims? The fact is that the Punjabi Muslim is a convert mainly from the peasantry (Jat) which is not martial. General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is Gakkhar, a caste that claims Rajput ancestry. The second Rohtas fort was built by Sher Khan Suri to pacify the Gakkhars. In his Tuzuk, Jahangir makes the remark in passing that the Gakkhars are warlike, but adds that they only fight among themselves. Meanwhile Rajput, Afghan, Maratha, Sikh, Jat (Hindu) and tribal Hindu generals all fought for and against Mughal armies. Rajputs had to be continually submitted by force, except for the loyal Kachwahas of Ambar (Jaipur). Right down to Aurangzeb, according to Maasir-e-Alamgiri, Mewar’s Sisodiyas and Marwar’s Rathors resisted the emperor. I clarify here that Muslims other than Punjabis fought the Mughals, and some very well.
Uttar Pradesh’s Rohilla Afghans were enemies of the Mughals and one of them (Najibud Daulah) ruled from Mughal Delhi for 10 years. Turkish-speaking Turani Sunnis and Farsi-speaking Irani Shias were the most important parties in the Mughal court. The former ranked as better fighters than the latter, who were better administrators. The fiercest Indian-origin Muslims were Shias, the Syeds of Barha (in Uttar Pradesh). The Maratha light cavalry was devastating and ended Muslim rule over India. The Sikhs captured Punjab and raided west up to Kabul and east up to the Doab. The Jats south of Delhi made life miserable for the later Mughals. Even the Baniya general Hemu showed martial character, almost ending Mughal rule before falling at the second battle of Panipat.
What exactly did the Punjabi Muslim do? Invaders who got past Peshawar could then only be stopped at Karnal or Panipat because they went through Punjab undisturbed. It is true that the armies of both Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali were harassed in Punjab on their return with Mughal booty, but their attackers were Sikhs, not Muslims. Punjab was a quiet state. Punjabi Muslims neither rebelled against Mughal Delhi nor fought any invader whether Afghan or Persian. Was this because the Punjabi did not want to fight other Muslims? Not really, because he did not even resist being conquered easily by Sikhs.
It is the Englishman who 150 years ago gave the Punjabi Muslim a rifle and taught him how to use it. But this did not require any martial background. The British Bengal army was full of UP Brahmins (like Mangal Pandey). It is only after this formation of the modern regiments, that Punjabi Muslims are called martial by writers like GF MacMunn. After the English left, the record of Punjabi Muslims at war under their own generals is not sterling. I count one draw and one loss and I’m being charitable. Against the Pashtun Talib the record is not encouraging, despite the thousands of martyrs. Nadir Shah said of Indian Muslims after the battle of Karnal that they “know how to die, but not how to fight”.
This is fine and many states of India are not martial. Few soldiers were produced by Bengal’s Hindus for instance, and not many by Gujarat even today. But they don’t have the militant bombast of the Punjabi Muslim (who apparently equals 10 Hindus). I’m just wondering what this bombast is based on because I cannot figure it out.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 30th, 2012.

This is another sign of absolute $tupid logic, and total disregard and ignorance of history and geography of Punjab.
People like this author come out of 3rd rate Sarkari school history books, and then show their moronic @rse brains to the whole wide world.

Now that I have gotten this absolute dismay about the OP, let me help clarify things a bit.

The OP asks the question.


Are Punjabi Muslims martial?

The answer is NO!

But not for the demented arguments put forward by the OP.


Even an amateur historian of the past 200 years can see that Punjab supplied the largest pool of soldiers and policemen.

Were they all Muslim? No.
Were they from all over Punjab? No

Most of these soldiers came from Punjab hill country and sorrounding lowlands that is the area between the following cities

1. Gujranwala (Maharaja Ranjeet Singh's birthplace if I am not mistaken),
2. Gujrat,
3. Jehlm
4. Pindi
5. Chakwal


KPK supplies soldiers from Peshawar and Charsaddah area.


Tribes living in these areas were not fierce fighters. Heck no. You don't need fierce fighters since the time of modern armies of Romans, No siree, you instead need "disciplined fighters".

the question is. Are these people "Martial", well in racial sense no.

But if you consider military or police as a "profession", then yes, these people are martial.

The areas listed above provide professional law enforcement agents who joined military or police or other related branches.

Were they all Muslim? As I answered earlier. No. They came in all of the religions from this area including Muslims who dominated due to their numbers, Sikhs who earned the most medals of bravery as a percentage of their population, and off course Hindus.

Modern armies need a specific set of mindset and people from these areas fullfilled those requirements and in really really large numbers.

Most recent examples of modern armies come from British East India company and then British-Indian army.

British empire was vast, where sun never set, but they found English speaking soldiers in such large numbers only from one region of British India.

No wonder they were full of praises and thus could call them Martial people. With the division of Punjab when Indian and Pakistan got created, these professional soldiers got split between the two countries. Early Indian army was dominated by the non-Muslim soldiers from the same West Punjab region.

This is something to be proud of, for all the people of the region Indians and Pakistanis and not just Punjab or Muslims. And anyone including the author who want to make it racial, I say shame on you.

Pak army hasn't won that many wars. Well modern warfare includes logistics, industrial might, munition and electronics.

You can have the best soldier in the world, who without proper support system will lose in no time. When OP jokes about Pak army, he is simply an ignoramus nincompoop who doesn't know any thing about military or its history.



peace

 

[xyxmt]

Us Punjabis has been fighting for centuries to protect our lands. It comes hand in hand with farming.

It was a matter of survival, when you live next to lawless land then you must be willing to fight to protect yourself. So fighting came natural to Punjabis, put the ploughs down and pick up the swords.

Yes they are martial races but only superior fighter given same means to fight.

in my ancestor village in Chukwal, you turn a stone and you find a nameless shaheed's grave. Havent been there for 30 years but when i was in my teens we would sit around elders and all we hear is stories about wars. Its common to see guys tall as 6'2 6'3 and i dont think anyone in old times wouldnt pay handsome money to hire them in their armies. Imagine a regiment of men 6'2 tall reigning over south Indians...lol

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
In my opinion those who fought under Tipu Sultan (the first Muslim/indian subcontinental leader to have humiliatingly defeated the british invaders) were of Martial race status. .....]

TIPU had Punjabi-Hindko blood.

His ancestors (his dad Haider Ali, correct me if I am wrong) was from the North Wester Punjab.


peace

 

[Desert Fox]

TIPU had Punjabi-Hindko blood.

His ancestors (his dad Haider Ali, correct me if I am wrong) was from the North Wester Punjab.


peace

Whether if he was or not, I never claimed otherwise.

 

[DARKY]

It was a matter of survival, when you live next to lawless land then you must be willing to fight to protect yourself. So fighting came natural to Punjabis, put the ploughs down and pick up the swords.

Yes they are martial races but only superior fighter given same means to fight.

in my ancestor village in Chukwal, you turn a stone and you find a nameless shaheed's grave. Havent been there for 30 years but when i was in my teens we would sit around elders and all we hear is stories about wars. Its common to see guys tall as 6'2 6'3 and i dont think anyone in old times wouldnt pay handsome money to hire them in their armies. Imagine a regiment of men 6'2 tall reigning over south Indians...lol

Interestingly South Indians owned one of the most ancient form of Martial arts.. they still practise it there.

Kalari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or even something similar to the recent one we have on our side of Punjab.

Gatka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW.. what is your village and what form of martial arts do you follow for being a martial race.

 

[RazPaK]

Does the martial tribes of pakistan-awans,arains,sethis etc have any particular martial art forms like kung fu..?

Actually there is a martial art. It is now dying, but I think some Sikh baba is trying to revive it.

By grandfather had told me about it. It was called Gatka.