Is the Navy Planning on procuring replacements for P3-Cs?

[Heinz Guderian]

for example?

You know how many AShM you needed to saturate the Indian Navy defences?

 

[New World]

whatever jf-17 has to offer is enough for us, it can carry two anti-ship missiles, and will be able to patrol at enough range to keep the indian navy away from gwadar and karachi, i.e at about 500km from both. our navy is a small one and its role is area denial not area control. two squadrons of jf-17s will be enough for the navy. and from a range of 500km, indian navy cant do much against PN.

So, you want to repeat the 65 and 71 wars by denying suitable fighter for PN, that it didn't need more lethal fighter..

 

[S.Y.A]

So, you want to repeat the 65 and 71 wars by denying suitable fighter for PN, that it didn't need more lethal fighter..

a repeat of 71 you say? do you know that in 71 navy did not possess a fighter. if the paf had been kind enough to spare even 5 fighters when navy called for help, the situation would have been entirely different. jf-17 will be enough for now.

You know how many AShM you needed to saturate the Indian Navy defences?

do you know of any IN missile that strike beyond 500km?

 

[ares]

whatever jf-17 has to offer is enough for us, it can carry two anti-ship missiles, and will be able to patrol at enough range to keep the indian navy away from gwadar and karachi, i.e at about 500km from both. our navy is a small one and its role is area denial not area control. two squadrons of jf-17s will be enough for the navy. and from a range of 500km, indian navy cant do much against PN.

1.You do know India Navy operates two aircraft carriers , along with 45 Mig 29 Ks(which is far better than JF-17 in almost every aspect) and 12 sea Harriers.

Unlike PN, IN does not need IAF assistance for dealing PAF Jf-17s. Though IAF will also be bombing Pakistani Naval bases...how many threats will your JF-17 manage at once?

2. JF-17 is a small aircraft, with little endurance, it will be unable to remain at stations for long.

It has a small/ mediocre radar...It will not be able to utilise the full capability of the Chinese AShM it carries...Nor will it be able to detect Naval targets at ranges, where a MSI aircraft should.

 

[S.Y.A]

1.You do know India Navy operates two aircraft carriers , along with 45 Mig 29 Ks(which is far better than JF-17 in almost every aspect) and 12 sea Harriers.

Unlike PN, IN does not need IAF assistance for dealing PAF Jf-17s. Though IAF will also be bombing Pakistani Naval bases...how many threats will your JF-17 manage at once?

2. JF-17 is a small aircraft, with little endurance, it will be unable to remain at stations for long.

It has a small/ mediocre radar...It will not be able to utilise the full capability of the Chinese AShM it carries...Nor will it be able to detect Naval targets at ranges, where a MSI aircraft should.

your aircraft carriers do not use a catapult system, they use a ski-jump, so the aircrafts launched will not be loaded to their full capacity(fuel and weapons both), this limits whatever advantage your mig 29 has. 2ndly we were talking about PN acquiring jet fighters, not relying on PAF's support, so PAF will be free to deal with IAF. 3rdly P3s will be the ones detecting IN ships at long ranges and maybe they are linked with jf-17, so they will be able to utilize the full potential of chinese Anti Ship missiles. 4th point- you are forgetting about our submarines. 5th point - do you really believe that IN will be able to put all 45 aircrafts at once in the air? Last point - PN is looking for area denial, not area control.

1.You do know India Navy operates two aircraft carriers , along with 45 Mig 29 Ks(which is far better than JF-17 in almost every aspect) and 12 sea Harriers.

Unlike PN, IN does not need IAF assistance for dealing PAF Jf-17s. Though IAF will also be bombing Pakistani Naval bases...how many threats will your JF-17 manage at once?

2. JF-17 is a small aircraft, with little endurance, it will be unable to remain at stations for long.

It has a small/ mediocre radar...It will not be able to utilise the full capability of the Chinese AShM it carries...Nor will it be able to detect Naval targets at ranges, where a MSI aircraft should.

oh, and i forgot, the AWACS bought from china are also based at Karachi. we will have plenty of early warning believe me.

 

[New World]

jf-17 will be enough for now.

Sir, jf-17 is enough for Air Force, but not enough for Navy.. jf-17 can't compete with Mig-29k..

 

[ares]

your aircraft carriers do not use a catapult system, they use a ski-jump, so the aircrafts launched will not be loaded to their full capacity(fuel and weapons both), this limits whatever advantage your mig 29 has. 2ndly we were talking about PN acquiring jet fighters, not relying on PAF's support, so PAF will be free to deal with IAF. 3rdly P3s will be the ones detecting IN ships at long ranges and maybe they are linked with jf-17, so they will be able to utilize the full potential of chinese Anti Ship missiles. 4th point- you are forgetting about our submarines. 5th point - do you really believe that IN will be able to put all 45 aircrafts at once in the air? Last point - PN is looking for area denial, not area control.


oh, and i forgot, the AWACS bought from china are also based at Karachi. we will have plenty of early warning believe me.

1. Unlike Russian Navy and Chinese Navy which use Sukhois on the aircraft carriers..Indian navy decided to use Mig 29s.
Mig 29s are lot lighter than sukhois, they can carry full load of fuel in addition to full air to air load out ..when taking off.

For strike missions..Mig 29s have buddy buddy refueling pods...i.e .they can take off with complete strike load out and minimum fuel and once in air they can be refueled by another Mig 29 with a buddy refuelling pod and continue on the mission.

2. Pakistan Navy has never operated any jets even the current mirage 5s are operated by PAf but are at the disposal of Pakistan Navy ..

3. So if P-3s are the ones detecting the ships and then you do need them ..since this thread is about PN needing more P3c
You only have 7 P3- c remaining that too of 1980s vintage.

American aircrafts data linked with Chinese aircrafts..not happening.

4. And you are from forgetting about our submarines ..they can fire LACM from 300 Km away and Ballistic missiles from 3500 Km away(though these will be most likely nuclear)

5. 24 Air crafts will stationed on INS Vikramaditya.. rest Mig 29s will be stationed on Indian Naval bases near Pakistan border.

One Carrier Battle Group will blockade Gwadar...lets say Vikramaditya.

Second carrier Battle group will blockade Karachi INS Viraat/ ViKrant(once it is completed)..Mig 29s from Gujrat can also provide air cover/strike Karachi.

6. Pakistani navy severely outmatched in both surface , sub surface as well air fleets. At present it does not have the area denial abilty against India Navy.

A single Kolkatta class destroyer under air cover from Indian Navy Mig 29s can pump 16 Brahmos in to Karachi/Gwadar from 300 Kms away..completely obliterating these ports. similarly Kilo/Akula class can do the same with Club missile.

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

One Carrier Battle Group will blockade Gwadar...lets say Vikramaditya.

Second carrier Battle group will blockade Karachi INS Viraat/ ViKrant(once it is completed)..Mig 29s from Gujrat can also provide air cover/strike Karachi.

IN cannot blockade Karachi let alone gawader which is too far away from your naval bases......Imagine even a few JF17`s armed with a mixture of CM400 AKG and C803`s.....WIth datalink from ZDK 03,these missiles can be launched at their maximum ranges.............And this is only naval aviation.I`m not counting the entire PN....SO dont expect a blockade of any of Pakistan`s port.

 

[Last Samuri]

Indian Navy is the largest and most formidable in Asia bar China & Russia.

Pakistan is in comparison almost a coastal force.

Pakistan Navy operate at such extreme financial conditions I think they would struggle to fuel and arm half a dozen ships.

Something ridiculous like $700 million a year.

Let me just put this into perspective for you War Khan Indian Navy Budget was over $8 billion ie 11 times as much.

One indian stealth guided missle destroyer built in india by Indians below costs $ 1 billion

In a war most USA war simulations see Pakistan navy falling first the gap by the Indians is huge in naval; firepower and technology.

You people have invested nothing in your navy.

Indians can dominate the indian ocean & Arbian Sea with 2 seperate carrier battle groups

This is a indian battle group NOT USA that lead ship is the Vikrant carrier coming home being escorted by Indian WESTERN FLEET

Indian Navy is the largest and most formidable in Asia bar China & Russia.

Pakistan is in comparison almost a coastal force.

Pakistan Navy operate at such extreme financial conditions I think they would struggle to fuel and arm half a dozen ships.

Something ridiculous like $700 million a year.

Let me just put this into perspective for you War Khan Indian Navy Budget was over $8 billion ie 11 times as much.

One indian stealth guided missle destroyer built in india by Indians below costs $ 1 billion

In a war most USA war simulations see Pakistan navy falling first the gap by the Indians is huge in naval; firepower and technology.

You people have invested nothing in your navy.

Indians can dominate the indian ocean & Arbian Sea with 2 seperate carrier battle groups

This is a indian battle group NOT USA that lead ship is the Vikrant carrier coming home being escorted by Indian WESTERN FLEET

Theses sleek sexy looking fighters are indian Navy MIG29K the most advanced and expensive MIG29 ever built

FBW
HMS
Israeli jammers

The MIG29K can go toe toe against any PAF fighter including your 18 block 52 FALCONS the cream of your air power.

INDIA HAS 45 MIG29K

 

[Archie]

IN cannot blockade Karachi let alone gawader which is too far away from your naval bases......Imagine even a few JF17`s armed with a mixture of CM400 AKG and C803`s.....WIth datalink from ZDK 03,these missiles can be launched at their maximum ranges.............And this is only naval aviation.I`m not counting the entire PN....SO dont expect a blockade of any of Pakistan`s port.

Yes,
But have you heard of counter measures
A Single Kolkata class Destroyer carries 64 SAMs, a CBG will have about 250 SAMs defending it, not to mention several dozen CIWS.
In case of a blockade, you are looking at 4 Destroyers, 8 Frigates, 4 Corvettes , 6 Submarines being deployed , divided among the two CBGs, which would have deployed significant aircrafts on air
Also Israeli MF star Radar used on board Indian carriers and Destroyers have a range of 400 km, ie
They will see you before you see them

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Indian Navy is the largest and most formidable in Asia bar China & Russia.

Pakistan is in comparison almost a coastal force.

Pakistan Navy operate at such extreme financial conditions I think they would struggle to fuel and arm half a dozen ships.

Something ridiculous like $700 million a year.

Let me just put this into perspective for you War Khan Indian Navy Budget was over $8 billion ie 11 times as much.

One indian stealth guided missle destroyer built in india by Indians below costs $ 1 billion

In a war most USA war simulations see Pakistan navy falling first the gap by the Indians is huge in naval; firepower and technology.

You people have invested nothing in your navy.

Indians can dominate the indian ocean & Arbian Sea with 2 seperate carrier battle groups

This is a indian battle group NOT USA that lead ship is the Vikrant carrier coming home being escorted by Indian WESTERN FLEET

First of all you should go through the threads about PN on PDF.You need to learn some facts some of them are as below;
1.IN is an offensive force while PN is a defensive force so it does not need lots of ships.Its just needs enough to effectively deny IN free access in Arabian sea for which PN has enough of capability.
2.The annual budget of PN may be 700$ million but the procurement budget is not included in it.(go through the threads to learn more about this)
3.Indian coastline is is 7500+ km (more than 7 times of that of Pakistan),So for effectively securing such a huge coastline,IN needs a huge force much larger than that of PN.
4.IN cannot deploy all of its fleet in Arabian sea theatre.That would leave its central and eastern coast vulnerable to PN subs.To counter PN subs,IN need to deploy a large force dispersed throughout its huge coastline due to which less ships will be available for offensive role.
5.PN` recent procurement of 4 improved F22 p frigates and 8 yuann class subs will close the gap between PN and IN capabilities.
6.THe most important point of all is that with the improvement of Pakistans economic condition(which is now going in the right direction) will see a massive increase in PN`s budget and you will see the the gap in capabilities to lessen further.
@Archie

 

[Last Samuri]

War Khan,

Massive increase in Navy Budget. ???????

From $700 million to What ?????? LOL LOL

BE RELISTIC.

No good ranting THINK WITH YOU BRAIN not your heart.

Countries loose wars like this.

HOT HEADS but no brains or muscle ..

You are so far behind in navy capability its a joke to even compare.

 

[ares]

IN cannot blockade Karachi let alone gawader which is too far away from your naval bases......Imagine even a few JF17`s armed with a mixture of CM400 AKG and C803`s.....WIth datalink from ZDK 03,these missiles can be launched at their maximum ranges.............And this is only naval aviation.I`m not counting the entire PN....SO dont expect a blockade of any of Pakistan`s port.

Lol Zdk 03 is an Awacs and not maritime patrol aircraft.
Second there is no data link capability in CM 400 or c803..they have INS for mid course guidance and active radar/ infrared seeker for terminal guidance

Even is you close your eyes and launch the missile blind at its maximum range 180 to 230 kms..in general direction of the suspected target(because JF 17-radar can not look that far) ...hoping terminal radar will lock on to some indian navy ship at least.

Then also you will have to overcome the aircraft carriers first line of defence..I.e Mig 29s- on CAP to launch those missiles.

Some how even if your IF 17s manage to evade the Mig 29s on CAP and launch their missiles...these are subsonic missiles flying high above the radar horizon can be shot down by Barak 2 or even air to air missile launched by Mig 29..provided it can track it.
CM 400- only goes supersonic in its terminal phase and not before that.
Last line of defence is obviously Barak 1 and AK 630- Guns.
So targetting carrier battle group ain't that easy.

As far as blockading Karachi is concerned ..forget about aircraft carriers ..stealth destroyers and nuclear submarines..last time Karachi was blockaded by 4 small boats.

 

[Neptune]

1. Unlike Russian Navy and Chinese Navy which use Sukhois on the aircraft carriers..Indian navy decided to use Mig 29s.
Mig 29s are lot lighter than sukhois, they can carry full load of fuel in addition to full air to air load out ..when taking off.

For strike missions..Mig 29s have buddy buddy refueling pods...i.e .they can take off with complete strike load out and minimum fuel and once in air they can be refueled by another Mig 29 with a buddy refuelling pod and continue on the mission.

2. Pakistan Navy has never operated any jets even the current mirage 5s are operated by PAf but are at the disposal of Pakistan Navy ..

3. So if P-3s are the ones detecting the ships and then you do need them ..since this thread is about PN needing more P3c
You only have 7 P3- c remaining that too of 1980s vintage.

American aircrafts data linked with Chinese aircrafts..not happening.

4. And you are from forgetting about our submarines ..they can fire LACM from 300 Km away and Ballistic missiles from 3500 Km away(though these will be most likely nuclear)

5. 24 Air crafts will stationed on INS Vikramaditya.. rest Mig 29s will be stationed on Indian Naval bases near Pakistan border.

One Carrier Battle Group will blockade Gwadar...lets say Vikramaditya.

Second carrier Battle group will blockade Karachi INS Viraat/ ViKrant(once it is completed)..Mig 29s from Gujrat can also provide air cover/strike Karachi.

6. Pakistani navy severely outmatched in both surface , sub surface as well air fleets. At present it does not have the area denial abilty against India Navy.

A single Kolkatta class destroyer under air cover from Indian Navy Mig 29s can pump 16 Brahmos in to Karachi/Gwadar from 300 Kms away..completely obliterating these ports. similarly Kilo/Akula class can do the same with Club missile.

1- For IN, as for now its about configuration and the munitions that the aircraft is going to carry.

2- It makes sense that they don't.

3- Vintage? Pakistani Orion's MAD instrument and modernization with Hawkeye 2000 AEW system will keep being a headache for Indian submarines.

4- Most forumers tend to confuse naval warfare with 'strategy games'

Of course the countries have their own choice but submarine launched nuclear missiles are generally regarded as second-strike capabilities which means let alone a nuclear attack your are talking about a nuclear retaliation after India's hit by Pakistan with nukes and his nuclear missile units are destroyed which is never going to happen so eliminate the SLBMs since when its used both India and Pakistan will burn each other. SLBMs are not weapons but a must have deterrence until WW3 is started.

So what is Pakistan, a no-mads land? Perception of ASW/MPAs are detection and reconnaissance (attack if the aircraft is armed) so they won't be flying just off the beaches. They are tasked to perform their duties hundreds of miles away.

5- Indian Navy has a significant superiority over PN and they know how to use that. But a CBG is very expensive to operate and requires vast logistic support. And seriously how do you think they are gonna;

"One Carrier Battle Group will blockade Gwadar...lets say Vikramaditya.

Second carrier Battle group will blockade Karachi INS Viraat/ ViKrant(once it is completed)..Mig 29s from Gujrat can also provide air cover/strike Karachi." ??

6- It's about budget. For India; the more you spend on the Navy more superior you'll become.


There's a reason why we humans are never and will be able to predict the progress of a battle and its results on a tactical scale. Because it's complex and a lot of factors are on display. In naval warfare the environment, training of staff, agility, strategies and many more facts are on the desk. Even one second can save an entire ship or it can cost the lives of hundreds.

So one can only be a fool to understand that IN has a massive edge over PN but don't trust yourself too much.

 

[ares]

1- For IN, as for now its about configuration and the munitions that the aircraft is going to carry.



2- It makes sense that they don't.

3- Vintage? Pakistani Orion's MAD instrument and modernization with Hawkeye 2000 AEW system will keep being a headache for Indian submarines.

Ya.. Hawkeye 2000 was destroyed in Mehran attacks.

4- Most forumers tend to confuse naval warfare with 'strategy games'

Of course the countries have their own choice but submarine launched nuclear missiles are generally regarded as second-strike capabilities which means let alone a nuclear attack your are talking about a nuclear retaliation after India's hit by Pakistan with nukes and his nuclear missile units are destroyed which is never going to happen so eliminate the SLBMs since when its used both India and Pakistan will burn each other. SLBMs are not weapons but a must have deterrence until WW3 is started.

So what is Pakistan, a no-mads land? Perception of ASW/MPAs are detection and reconnaissance (attack if the aircraft is armed) so they won't be flying just off the beaches. They are tasked to perform their duties hundreds of miles away.

5- Indian Navy has a significant superiority over PN and they know how to use that. But a CBG is very expensive to operate and requires vast logistic support. And seriously how do you think they are gonna;

"One Carrier Battle Group will blockade Gwadar...lets say Vikramaditya.

Second carrier Battle group will blockade Karachi INS Viraat/ ViKrant(once it is completed)..Mig 29s from Gujrat can also provide air cover/strike Karachi." ??

6- It's about budget. For India; the more you spend on the Navy more superior you'll become.


There's a reason why we humans are never and will be able to predict the progress of a battle and its results on a tactical scale. Because it's complex and a lot of factors are on display. In naval warfare the environment, training of staff, agility, strategies and many more facts are on the desk. Even one second can save an entire ship or it can cost the lives of hundreds.

So one can only be a fool to understand that IN has a massive edge over PN but don't trust yourself too much.

Indian Navy currently has two aircraft carriers, while two more are different stages of construction/planning. Within a decade..Indian navy plans to have three operational aircraft carriers.

In any hypothetical war against Pakistan alone..Indian navy will have at least two aircraft carriers deployed on our western seaboard, even if one aircraft carrier remains in the east to deter the Chinese.

Pakistan as of now only has one principal port of Karachi..if and when Gwadar comes online..blockade of Gwadar would be essential to India navy's plans.

Yes, now Indian navy has massive advantage over PN, but it was always not so.

In our Last Naval war..Pakistan had 26 principal combatants including 11 submarines while India had one...where as IN had 31 principal combatants.

Even then Indian Navy managed to sink one third Pakistani fleet, laid waist to Pakistani harbours Karachi and Chittagong. Both East and West Pakistan were completely blockaded. Fires burnt in Karachi harbour for almost entire duration of the war, cause more than $3 Billion damage to Pakistan economy.( in 1971)

Pakistani losses at the end of the war were.

2 Destroyers
1 Minesweeper
1 Submarine
3 Patrol vessels
7 Gunboats
18 Cargo, Supply and Communication ships
3 Merchant Navy ships captured

While India lost one frigate.

It was not because IN numerical superiority or qualitative superiority that India won the war..but simply because of audacious planning and fearless execution.