Is blasphemy a pardonable offense?

[TankMan]

There are multiple sources thats why all the confusion.

That's why we need to follow a clear hierarchy of authenticity:
1- the Quran: Anything that contradicts the Quran is not authentic
2- The Sunnah (mostly from Hadiths)
- Sahih Hadiths (like Bukhari and Muslim)

Everything else is not necessarily authentic and can be challenged - thus, not a good thing to base an entire country's laws on.

 

[he-man]

That's why we need to follow a clear hierarchy of authenticity:
1- the Quran: Anything that contradicts the Quran is not authentic
2- The Sunnah (mostly from Hadiths)
- Sahih Hadiths (like Bukhari and Muslim)

Everything else is not necessarily authentic and can be challenged - thus, not a good thing to base an entire country's laws on.

I think only quran should serve as the authentic source.That would avoid any confusion.

 

[Dubious]

I think only quran should serve as the authentic source.That would avoid any confusion.

sadly many people are soo used to other religions having many books they find it a competition and bring in other books too

On a serious note that is why ONLY QURAN is authentic rest is COMPARED TO THE QURAN...if it contradicts, it is ignored COMPLETELY!

Why we need the hadith because Quran is a book of signs but it has enough information to last a lifetime reading and understanding...beauty of the Arabic language plus the way the Quran was revealed .... The hadith are like missing puzzle but the min it contradicts the Quran (meaning puzzle is not fitting) it is completely ignored....

 

[TankMan]

I think only quran should serve as the authentic source.That would avoid any confusion.

Yes, I understand, that's a pretty logical view but there is one issue: some things are not elaborately explained in the Quran.
For example, it mentions that we must pray Salah but it does not explain the way of praying, that was explained by the Holy Prophet when he (reportedly) said ''pray as you see me praying''. The hadiths explain how he prayed and, thus, how we should pray.
That's why we rely on hadiths in some cases.

Hadiths can elaborate on points mentioned by the Quran or add a few more points, BUT, they can not contradict the Quran, which is why hadiths that advocate the blasphemy law, for example, are not considered authentic by many because they are in contradiction to the Quran, which repeatedly tells us to abstain from harming others and clearly orders proportionate punishments.

 

[he-man]

sadly many people are soo used to other religions having many books they find it a competition and bring in other books too

On a serious note that is why ONLY QURAN is authentic rest is COMPARED TO THE QURAN...if it contradicts, it is ignored COMPLETELY!

Why we need the hadith because Quran is a book of signs but it has enough information to last a lifetime reading and understanding...beauty of the Arabic language plus the way the Quran was revealed .... The hadith are like missing puzzle but the min it contradicts the Quran (meaning puzzle is not fitting) it is completely ignored....

People are not that wise to understand these finer points.

Yes, I understand, that's a pretty logical view but there is one issue: some things are not elaborately explained in the Quran.
For example, it mentions that we must pray Salah but it does not explain the way of praying, that was explained by the Holy Prophet when he (reportedly) said ''pray as you see me praying''. The hadiths explain how he prayed and, thus, how we should pray.
That's why we rely on hadiths in some cases.

Hadiths can elaborate on points mentioned by the Quran or add a few more points, BUT, they can not contradict the Quran, which is why hadiths that advocate the blasphemy law, for example, are not considered authentic by many because they are in contradiction to the Quran, which repeatedly tells us to abstain from harming others and clearly orders proportionate punishments.

Its better to not think about the omitted things than following a source which is controversial.

 

[TankMan]

People are not that wise to understand these finer points.

Unfortunately, that is exactly the case. That is why we had people fighting over things like race, now its moved on to religious and political ideologies (like communism, nationalism, maoism, anarchism, Islamic fundamentalism and so on).
That's how people are. That's how we humans are.

In the future we'll probably be fighting over planets or scientific theories or whatever is 'cool' during those times.

May God save us from ourselves.

Its better to not think about the omitted things than following a source which is controversial.

Yes, exactly. That is why I say it is stupid to base a country's constitution on some controversial hadiths.

 

[Srinivas]

For verse 9:29, the verse preceding it says:
This verse and the following verses are clearly referring to one specific place, the Masjid al-Haram, and one specific time, which was the Quraysh's final year. It does not apply to every Muslim in every period of time, since not every Muslim lives near the Masjid al-Haram and it is not the final year for the Quraysh.

Thanks for mentioning the context of the verses, lets go with your reasoning.

The final Year of Qurash is the time when Arabian peninsula is almost under the control of Islam, Prophet wants to expand and stamp the authority of Islam on the adjacent regions as well. In short this verse is a motivational speech from Allah to fight the non believers and sub due them, make them pay tax once they are conquered.

This verse is like a battle cry for the expansion of Islam.

On the other hand, verse 14 of the 45th Surah (al Jathiya), has no such limitations. It is addressed to ''those who believe'', in general.

And before that, in 45:11, it is mentioned that ''this is guidance'', while addressing the believers, implying that this is being addressed to all those who follow the Quran. (again, with no time or place limits given)


So, according to all this evidence, your reasoning is incorrect.

This verse came from Allah when Prophet has no military strength and he is surrounded by Pagan Arabs. Since Islam is just beginning, Allah advised Prophet to go easy on non believers.

The two verses definitely contradict each other !!

When you quote the Sahih Bukhari, you say its an authentic source. When we quote it, you start making up excuses as to why we are wrong, even though we are quoting the EXACT SAME hadith and it CLEARLY says 'theft and murder', and not 'blasphemy'.

Lets assume that the guys are killed for murder, I leave it to you why torture is imposed on them. Torture till death is a heavy punishment reserved for highest of crimes.
But why would prophet order assassination of a lady and a hundred year old man when they wrote a poem mocking Islam and Prophet ??

Let me explain in simple terms NOTHING goes against Quran! If it does it is thrown away! Now you insisting on the opposite is sheer arrogance!

1) no one calls them AUTHENTIC - THAT title goes to Quran ONLY!
2) They are a reference guide ONLY not the main book (Quran is the main book) ! No one takes it the otherway round hence any mistake(s) in the hadith is blamed on the hadith not on Islam .....
3) The guy COLLECTED THEM...He traced people whom he "heard" had some hadith and he traced the people and wrote the narrators...He didnt have 100% resources to validate hence why behind his book it is written if any hadith contradicts the Quran throw it away...EVEN HE doesnt want any responsibility of such crap which you love to quote!
4) He wasnt a Muhadith...He was a collector not a varifier! Hadith verification is a science that is being advanced every now and then and one NEEDS to be learned in the Science to be considered a Muhadith!
The torture part was covered by @TankMan please read his post!

Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet is about practical application of Quran !!

May be there are controversies in Hadith about authentications But most of the people follow them reason why they call themselves as Sunnis.

I think I have put forward my points correctly ! I leave the argument at this point.

 

[TankMan]

Thanks for mentioning the hadith, lets go with your reasoning.

That is not a hadith. Its a verse from the Quran (9:28), directly before the verse you quoted (9:29).

The final Year of Qurash is the time where Arabian peninsula is almost under the control and Prophet wants to expand and stamp the authority of Islam on the adjacent regions as well. In short this verse is a motivational speech from Allah to fight the non believers and sub due them make them pay tax once they are conquered.

This verse is like a battle cry for the expansion of Islam.

No, this verse was revealed when the Muslims were ordered to retake Makkah. You are mistaken.

This verse came from Allah when Prophet has no military strength and he is surrounded by Pagan Arabs. Since Islam is just beginning, Allah advised Prophet to go easy on non believers.

The two verses definitely contradict each other !!

Even after I gave you clear and logical reasoning - that the previous verse (9:29) was confined to a SPECIFIC LOCATION and SPECIFIC TIME, while the second one (about forgiveness) was applicable to all Muslims, you are repeating this flawed argument.
You're wrong, like I said before, reading anti-Islam websites does not make you an expert and neither does it give you answers - all it does is blinds you from reason.
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

I leave it to you why torture is imposed on them.

I have already explained that. There are two possibilities:
1) The combination of crimes they committed deserved a greater punishment to set an example
2) They had done the same to their own victims, so they were given a proportional punishment.
Both these explanations have good enough sources to back them. Your explanation does not.

But why would prophet order assassination of a lady and a hundred year old man when they wrote a poem mocking Islam and Prophet

Which lady are you talking about? As for the poet, you're talking about Ka'b, right? I already addressed that in my reply to Zarvan,

As for the poets, Ka'b bin Ashraf and Abu Rafi, they were killed because they were actively trying to incite violence against the Muslims and politically supported the Quraysh. Here's what Ka'b bin Ashraf did:

Ka'b went to Mecca, where he wrote poems praising the Quraysh and trying to incite them to again take up arms again against Muhammad.[1] Some sources suggest that during a visit to Mecca, Ka'b concluded a treaty withAbu Sufyan, stipulating cooperation between the Quraysh and Jews against Muhammad.[7]

Musa and Ibn Ishaq stated further, “ He went to Medina where he proclaimed his enmity and INCITED PEOPLE TO GO TO WAR. He had not left Mecca before HE HAD UNITED THEM TO FIGHT THE MESSENGER OF GOD (SAAS); he then began composing amatory verses about Umm al-Fadl b. al-Harith and other Muslim women.

From ''The Life of the Prophet Muhammad, volume III'' by Ibn Kathir

He made a treaty to attack the Muslims and was actively working on destroying them (not just insulting), which is what made him wajib ul qatal. Blasphemy was not his only crime.

 

[Dubious]

Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet is about practical application of Quran !!

Hence, if it contradicts it cant stand as an application of something it contradicts!

May be there are controversies in Hadith about authentications But most of the people follow them reason why they call themselves as Sunnis.

That is their problem and for them to deal with...Why should you who now know the difference follow into other people's problems? Or do you wish to be part of a problem?

I think I have put forward my points correctly ! I leave the argument at this point.

yes indeed the point of lying esp when you didnt Highlight in the hadith the MURDER part! Why did you hide that? Is Murderer not relevant enough to be punished?

 

[Srinivas]

Hence, if it contradicts it cant stand as an application of something it contradicts!
That is their problem and for them to deal with...Why should you who now know the difference follow into other people's problems? Or do you wish to be part of a problem?
yes indeed the point of lying esp when you didnt Highlight in the hadith the MURDER part! Why did you hide that? Is Murderer not relevant enough to be punished?

The reason why I highlighted the blasphemy and leaving the faith is because you are ignoring those parts, it is not a lie.

 

[Dubious]

The reason why I highlighted the blasphemy and leaving the faith is because you are ignoring those parts, it is not a lie.

I am not ignoring but if you see a person who murders and loots people and then just does blasphemy and is begin punished with capital punishment ONLY a twisted person will IGNORE the BIGGER offense!

I already gave you examples of BLASPHEMY where prophet ignored...Urinating in a masjid ....If someone urinates in a holy place it is considered blasphemy by any religion it is different if they will punish it or not!

Prophet also got thrown rubbish daily by a Jewish lady but he didnt say anything to her in fact when she got sick and didnt throw rubbish he went to ask about her! Hell saying ill words to prophet is not as big of a crime as throwing rubbish at him daily! He didnt put her to death...

^^^ was highlighted by @PurpleButcher but still you didnt highlight murder AND looting! Now who is ignoring what is clear! Incase you are wondering which post Is blasphemy a pardonable offense? | Page 8

 

[Srinivas]

I am not ignoring but if you see a person who murders and loots people and then just does blasphemy and is begin punished with capital punishment ONLY a twisted person will IGNORE the BIGGER offense!

I already gave you examples of BLASPHEMY where prophet ignored...Urinating in a masjid ....If someone urinates in a holy place it is considered blasphemy by any religion it is different if they will punish it or not!

Prophet also got thrown rubbish daily by a Jewish lady but he didnt say anything to her in fact when she got sick and didnt throw rubbish he went to ask about her! Hell saying ill words to prophet is not as big of a crime as throwing rubbish at him daily! He didnt put her to death...

^^^ was highlighted by @PurpleButcher but still you didnt highlight murder AND looting! Now who is ignoring what is clear! Incase you are wondering which post Is blasphemy a pardonable offense? | Page 8

Let me remind you, Mosque is different to temples. Islam do not believe in idols or graves. People can pray anywhere. I think you have not read my replies and conversation completely. I mentioned the punishment of torture part, check those lines. I agree Prophet showed compassion like any other Prophets. With out compassion or mercy they cannot expand or gain the followers.

Regarding the ordering of assassinations, There is one more point I mentioned in my post regarding the change in the Prophet actions once he became head of the Madina to that of a preacher in Mecca.

 

[Dubious]

Let me remind you, Mosque is different to temples. Islam do not believe in idols or graves. People can pray anywhere. I think you have not read my replies and conversation completely. I mentioned the punishment of torture part, check those lines. I agree Prophet showed compassion like any other Prophets. With out compassion or mercy they cannot expand or gain the followers.

I have read you are more interested in proving that the torture bit was related when @TankMan has answered that bit maybe you are not reading his replies or you are waiting for us to make a slip or to agree with you?
Do you think prophet needed followers? God himself said many times to prophet dont worry about who will follow or not your job is only to preach that is all....who follows or not was never his business!

and whats with the bipolar attitude? sometimes you said Prophet didnt like such things so that is why gave him punishment when proven wrong by VARIOUS OTHER EXAMPLES you now say prophet was compassionate...i dont think its the hadith that is contradicting but your attempts to want to show something from nothing is VERY contradicting!

Regarding the ordering of assassinations, There is one more point I mentioned in my post regarding the change in the Prophet actions once he became head of the Madina to that of a preacher in Mecca.

There was no change....Either read the Hadith in Arabic coz I know many a times the meanings change thanks to unskilled translators....since my Arabic isnt great I dont even rely on hadith and to date my faith is unaffected so I am not sure why are you holding onto a hadith like a leach when half of us dont take it that seriously...Yes the other half (mostly from India) do!

 

[Zarvan]

@TankMan and @Akheilos Sorry but you are completely wrong context of ayats those two were killed for Blasphemy there were other leaders to taken prisnoers but only those two were killed on Fatah Makkah one poet and hos slave girl were killed for Blasphemy than a Blind Sahabi killed his own slave girl for abusing HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW approved the action and than we all know munafiq and jew story Munafiq only refused to accep a decision and was killed and there are few more incidents to

 

[Dubious]

@TankMan and @Akheilos Sorry but you are completely wrong context of ayats those two were killed for Blasphemy there were other leaders to taken prisnoers but only those two were killed on Fatah Makkah one poet and hos slave girl were killed for Blasphemy than a Blind Sahabi killed his own slave girl for abusing HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW approved the action and than we all know munafiq and jew story Munafiq only refused to accep a decision and was killed and there are few more incidents to

So you are trying to convince us based on what you say (you arent giving references) that the Western hate mongers are right that Prophet went around murdering people for no reason?

And Blasphemy was such a big deal then why spare the Jewish woman throwing garbage on him? That is also blasphemy....harming RELIGIOUS FIGURES...What about the "blasphemy" of urinating in the masjid? Even that was ignored and no harm was done to the man...WHY? Coz prophet doesnt preach hatred nor did he thought us to judge with a quick angered and biased mind! So please mind yourself next time before typing BS coz who knows you are the one doing blasphemy by saying Prophet approved such action!

Hadith mein details mein janay seh pehlay ....QURAN ko samjho and go into details in the Quran instead of relying on hadith jinki ALLAH nay koi promise nai rakhi ...Who knows someone may be poisoning our hadith with such hate speech..Are you a Muhadith? If not then stick to the Quran where ALLAH said it is a book easy to understand! THEN READ IT!

ALLAH says more times in the Quran about HIS mercy over his Wrath why are you like the believers of the old testament who always said stuff like god is angry, jealous god?

Saying something bad about a prophet who is dead is not reason enough to kill someone! Unless your religion is false and cant hold ground or is RADICAL (as the west puts it)...

Why are you overlooking all the passion and love and mercy and peace ...Islam means peace but you are depicting something that is far from peace!

How can saying something bad about prophet harm ANYONE? Seriously, Prophet is dead....No matter what anyone says about HIM will not change what a great man he was when he was alive! Koi gali bhi day day naa tou Prophet ki naiki nai khattam ho jai gi! kiya Islam itna weak hai kay kissi kay kehnay say usko koi Kharash bhi lag sakti hai? Yeh tou insaan ki weakness hai Islam ko mat blame kero!

Kabhi kabhi insaan thora sooch hi layta hai Jo KHUDA jisnay MEDAAN-E-JANG mein kaha agar koi chata hai safety usko safety par lay jao...Madaan-e-jang mein jub damagh khas nai kaam kera hota tub kaha giyea hai nainsaafi naa kerna!