IRIAF | News and Discussions

[drmeson]

They do not. There will be no conventional Air Force for Iran fortunately. F35s etc are retrograde thinking. Air forces will be manual UAVs transitioned to support roles of current craft to eventually independent AI driven units. It’s happening now as we speak. Cheap, fast, expendable and deadly. Any foreign craft delivered to Iran will have primarily TOT value and as operational craft a far second.

manned to unmanned transition will be a slow process. Exclusive Unmanned era will not happen before 2040s. IRIAF will probably be one of the largest AF in the world in the unmanned-only era if trends continue but it will see a very dark period of time during the transition phase due to budget cuts.

He didn't know anything.

Everyone on this forum was aware their was a heavier turbofan engine at design if you look at past conversation, but wasn't sure about the progress, timeline or if it would be a copy of any Russian engine or fully indigenous.

We've all been waiting for it. This just confirms that Iran is eying a true heavy interceptor design, well beyond the capability of Kowsar. Things like Kowsar and Yasin is just the stepping stone that need to be done to get to that level, and hopefully the first heavy interceptor class system can be field tested by 2030. Maybe if Iran is much wealthier from a nuclear deal, it will be sooner.

Turbofan with 17K dry and 28K lbf afterburning thrust on a Kowsar-I (same avionics) means an F-16D equivalent fighter.

IRIAF's problems start and end with $$$ for bulk production. They can replicate an F-14 and if we go by BT's articles they already have done that. But can they put that into 12-14units/year production ? No they can and that is because of $.

 

[Stryker1982]

manned to unmanned transition will be a slow process. Exclusive Unmanned era will not happen before 2040s. IRIAF will probably be one of the largest AF in the world in the unmanned-only era if trends continue but it will see a very dark period of time during the transition phase due to budget cuts.

I can see this as well.

What do you think of the Karrar being upgraded to a larger design, something like the US XQ-58 operating at a squadron level. Is this a necessary move?

For both sorties and combat air patrol

Turbofan with 17K dry and 28K lbf afterburning thrust on a Kowsar-I (same avionics) means an F-16D equivalent fighter.

IRIAF's problems start and end with $$$ for bulk production. They can replicate an F-14 and if we go by BT's articles they already have done that. But can they put that into 12-14units/year production ? No they can and that is because of $.

So do you believe they are simply waiting for the money and engine to come in to start serial production on Kowsar or move to another design.

I don't see why they should keep the current Kowsar design if they will field an engine with the specifications you suggested. Instead, keeping it as a trainer aircraft.

 

[drmeson]

I can see this as well.

What do you think of the Karrar being upgraded to a larger design, something like the US XQ-58 operating at a squadron level. Is this a necessary move?

For both sorties and combat air patrol

This is very necessary. A fast UCAV wingmen with low RCS and avionics. There are four candidates for that.

- Karrar. The problem is that they will have to re-design the airframe drastically to accommodate the tracking sensors for A2A role. May be an FC-Radar or an IRST to provide coordinates to A2A weapons. Karrar is too small for that. If you use missiles' own seekers to track the target then the range is compromised below any meaningful point. One solution can be the Tactical data linking that XQ-58 or modern wingmen have. Track radars on manned fighters and ground radars can easily provide coordinates to the receiver node in UCAV which fires the weapon. This system works within the Iranian airspace atleast. Outside the airspace, a manned fighter with long range track radar and TDL will have to fly with UCAV. Current IRIAF only has Kowsar-I with this package (93 KM track+TDL). F-14AM has a long range track option with locally modified AWG-9 but TDL is not clarified and in case of conflict F-14 will have to provide CAP+interception both. As per recent article in key.aero, a highly maneuverable AIM-9X equivalent version of CCD guided all aspect A2A missile is being tested which can be a massive upgrade to IRIAF in the interception role. UCAV armed with two such missiles can accompany the CAP patrols of IRIAF.

There is Mobin that can probably be better than Karrar for this role if enlarged.

- Shahed-171 with Jahesh-700 can take over the role of PGM strike and ELINT. It has low RCS and can intrude enemy airspace easily to acquire targets or search for them.

 

[drmeson]

So do you believe they are simply waiting for the money and engine to come in to start serial production on Kowsar or move to another design.

I personally believe IRIAF has no money to buy anything. Tom Copper and BT claim that there are internal IRIAF groups that pull each other legs through lobbyism for $ which resulted in leadership cutting the budget to 200-400 million for a large force out of defence budget of 24 Billion USD. Strategy has less to do with it. A Cordesmann (Janes) claims that IRIAF offers no value to Iranian doctrine so Strategists just gave up on this force altogather.

Make of it as you will.

I don't see why they should keep the current Kowsar design if they will field an engine with the specifications you suggested.

A proper 4+ generation fighter plane require four factors:

1) Turbofan Powerplants that can provide 45-50K+ ft/min climb, fast pitch/roll/yaws, high G's, long range.
2) Radar+Avionics: 100 KM+ track range for a 1-3 m2 target, look down SAR capability, e-warfare suite of RWR, ECCM and then Double duplex Tactical Data linking capability.
3) Airframe (low RCS, FBW)
4) Long range light BVR missiles and all aspect WVR weapons.

Saeghe/Kowsar Program current tick marks only two of the above four requirements i.e. 2 and 3. Its strong points are that they have used some level FBW on a small RCS airframe and its Radar+Avionics are the best that IRIAF currently has in its hands. Its weak points are the power plants and weapons. OWJ/J-85-21G is too weak to push the aircraft to fight against modern high maneuverable fighters and IRIAF has no lighter weight BVR missiles to arm it with since Fakour-90 and future Maghsoud are F-14 exclusive weapons.

With this Turbofan requirement, 1 will be fulfilled while with new CCD A2A missile least the plan will get a decent air-to-air weapon. The long-range BVR problem will not be solved unless Iran procures PL-15 for it or comes with its own design.

Few pages back I discussed how USAF's AIM-9X block III and Israel's Derby are both just highly maneuverable sidewinders with BVR ranges . I really hope this new Azarakhsh CCD seeker missile is something similar, according to BT and Patarames, it is an AIM-9X equivalent.

Instead, keeping it as a trainer aircraft.

I believe Yasin lobby will not let the project die so even if it's not required, Yasin AT will get $ for some level of production. The same job that a Kowsar-I based Trainer squadron can do will be given to Yasin pretty similar to how Mirage F1 is being operated while it has no radar, missile ... let alone missile, it has no pylon to carry missiles but Saddam's legend lives on in IRIAF without offering anything.

 

[jauk]

manned to unmanned transition will be a slow process. Exclusive Unmanned era will not happen before 2040s. IRIAF will probably be one of the largest AF in the world in the unmanned-only era if trends continue but it will see a very dark period of time during the transition phase due to budget cuts.



Turbofan with 17K dry and 28K lbf afterburning thrust on a Kowsar-I (same avionics) means an F-16D equivalent fighter.

IRIAF's problems start and end with $$$ for bulk production. They can replicate an F-14 and if we go by BT's articles they already have done that. But can they put that into 12-14units/year production ? No they can and that is because of $.

Incorrect. The proof is in the pudding with modern warfare. Conventional craft are merely tail end production runs suffered by the tech leaders (ie US). Leapfroggers (Iran) have moved on. 2040 you say? Then IRI will not have an air force until then which by deduction means it’s coming far sooner than that.

This thread itself is retrograde thinking and has predicted/wanted this or that garbage craft for IRI for god knows how long. Still nothing. And not because Iran can’t it’s because Iran WON’T.

 

[drmeson]

Incorrect. The proof is in the pudding with modern warfare. Conventional craft are merely tail end production runs suffered by the tech leaders (ie US). Leapfroggers (Iran) have moved on. 2040 you say? Then IRI will not have an air force until then which by deduction means it’s coming far sooner than that.

Fifth generation fighter jets will keep flying in 2030s. Major countries will enter the 2030s with fleets made of 4++ to 5.0 Generation manned fighters + UCAV bombers and some with wingmen. Almost every fighter maker in this world has either shown or has already flown a 5th generation aircraft and has already signed deals with their clients. I will say safely that we will be surrounded by 4++ to 5.0 Generation fighters by 2030s. Our current trends seem to hint towards IRIAF+IRGCAF becoming a large UCAV force (3rd largest fleet already) with few 4.0 generation manned fighters for interception role only. IRIAF's end as a potential force is not coming, its already here if we go by numbers presented by World Air forces (source of wiki for global AF). Recent most numbers of FMC (Full mission capable) and QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) fighters are down to a point that IADS will have to cover for some spots for interceptions where we actually have no decent fighter to put up a fight in the sky, it will have to be done from the ground through Ambush SAMS. Good or bad ? is upto the reader.

offcourse this will change if leadership starts putting up $$ in the combat aviation by 2025. They have the ingredients, a decent avionics suite, large turbofan is coming, modern BVR and WVR are there.

This thread itself is retrograde thinking and has predicted/wanted this or that garbage craft for IRI for god knows how long. Still nothing. And not because Iran can’t it’s because Iran WON’T.

Iran can’t it’s because Iran won't because Iran has no $$$ for IRIAF. Some people call it strategy, some call it inner politics. Like I said make of it what you will. I believe its a mixture of both.

 

[TheImmortal]

All 6th gen fighter jet programs are manned. While we are now seeing unmanned concepts introduced (China’s Dark Sword and USA wingman) they are ment to support the next gen of fighters not replace them.

End of the day the deciding factor is quality of electronic subsystems, air to air weapon tech, and engine tech.

Future lies in hypersonic reusable vehicles. Currently we are at single use stage.

So Iran being the leader in this field when it’s not capable of building a 4th Gen heavy engine (at this time) let alone the tech needed for hypersonic scramjet is a peculiar conclusion when it’s UAVs are mostly turbo prop powered and its domestic fighter jet project is using J-85.

Enemy will be fielding high supersonic and hypersonic reusable vehicles for deep strike of HVTs in the 2040’s and 50’s.

Iran could take Kowsar right now and make it unmanned. Doesn’t mean anything taking the human out of the cockpit if your electronics and sats comms can’t do the at least the job of a human. But if you wanted to simply achieve an “unmanned fighter jet” you could do it today. Turkey is well underway in that regard. But it doesn’t mean it can hold its own against a 6th or 7th gen fighter because you slapped an engine into a unmanned airframe and put a FLIR on it.

Human being in the cockpit or not is irrelevant. In fact not being cockpit means even more advanced engine tech as you are no longer worried about G force effects on pilot and can start building airframes with hypersonic engines and advanced metallurgy techniques to cope with airframe stress.

So Iran at Owj and FJ-44 level making the leap to match or at least be competitive with rivals in unmanned fighter/drone jet field is still going to require an enormous amount of tech advancement and a dedicated effort by the state to grow the IRIAF and IRGC-AF.

Because RQ-170 drones flying with FJ-44 engines in 2040s is not going to cut it when your enemy can go from Bahrain to Tehran in 8 mins using a hypersonic reusable strike fighter with the RCS of a bee.

I guess you can say who cares we have our Missile fleet—which is true as long as war doesn’t break out due to enemy accepting high deterrence costs. In the event it does break out, then your underbelly will be exposed to air superiority gap wether manned or unmanned. Switching to unmanned doesn’t make it any easier for Iran.

 

[Stryker1982]

Iran can’t it’s because Iran won't because Iran has no $$$ for IRIAF. Some people call it strategy, some call it inner politics. Like I said make of it what you will. I believe its a mixture of both.

To build a serious fighter program while under sanctions and a shrinking economy was clearly not a wise decision during the thought processes of the establishment. Until we see finances of Iran improve, we will likely not see anything other than UCAVs. The people who use so called intuition to guess the state of the IRIAF think you can make a fighter program with 10$ and a can of fanta orange. Takes billions actually.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

He didn't know anything.

Everyone on this forum was aware their was a heavier turbofan engine at design if you look at past conversation, but wasn't sure about the progress, timeline or if it would be a copy of any Russian engine or fully indigenous.

We've all been waiting for it. This just confirms that Iran is eying a true heavy interceptor design, well beyond the capability of Kowsar. Things like Kowsar and Yasin is just the stepping stone that need to be done to get to that level, and hopefully the first heavy interceptor class system can be field tested by 2030. Maybe if Iran is much wealthier from a nuclear deal, it will be sooner.

Hi my jealous, yes I knew it because here on the subject of Iriaf, it is a disaster because people have no intuition and do not know how to observe things well. I come to read other response and it's pathetic. Iran's budget is higher than the public budget presented but again, you are blind, without real intuition and observation.

Iran is working to pass the stages and go to a 6th generation combat aircraft. Go laugh all my children together, but time will still be right and quickly. You will have an appearance very soon.

 

[sha ah]

Le'ts simplify things. Iran's only feasible option is the flanker. Relations between Russia and The US/EU/Israel have hit rock bottom. That drone deal between Iran-Russia might very well be part of a much larger deal.

I've also heard that Iranian pilots are already training to fly SU-35s and SU-30s. It makes sense because the only other feasible options for Iran were the JF-17 which Iran rejected out of quality concerns and the J-10 which China will not trade for oil and because of potential sanctions concerns. I guess the US will have to actually target them and like they're doing to Russia until they learn their lesson.

Anyways i have no concerns about the SU-35. However when it comes to the the SU-30 Iran needs the software codes and technology transfers, as well as a deal to co-produce the fighters in Iran.I think that would be more than fair for both countries.

Realistically though Iran needs alot more than jets from Russia. Iran needs help upgrading its existing fleets of MIG-29s with modern avionics, radars, weapons. Iran also might want to purchase some MIG-31s, just so it can launch large missiles (potentially in the future hypersonic) at enemys. Iran should also upgrade its SU-24s for the same reason, just to use them to launch missiles at enemy positionsl

Iran definitely needs to keep its fleet of fighter jets underground, underneath mountain bunkers, just like its drones. Also in my opinion the F-7s, F-4s and Mirages need to be sold off. The F-4s seem to be the most useful out of the bunch though so maybe just use them until the the wheels fall off ? However the F-7s and Mirages should be sold to Syria and various third world/African nations.

Iran also needs various other parts components for a variety of other weapons which have been mentioned earlier, so this deal is worth billions,along with cooperation in multiple fields.

 

[sha ah]

Iran is unlikely to be able to build anything except for F-4s until sanctions are removed and then even it will be very challenging. Iran has built some prototypes over the years, the issue is that they don't match or surpass global standards or even a modernized F-4, so then what is the point. The flanker at this point is Iran's most feasible option. Many people here object to such a proposition, but it is what it is. Iran has limited options and its airforce needs a sooner than later.

To build a serious fighter program while under sanctions and a shrinking economy was clearly not a wise decision during the thought processes of the establishment. Until we see finances of Iran improve, we will likely not see anything other than UCAVs. The people who use so called intuition to guess the state of the IRIAF think you can make a fighter program with 10$ and a can of fanta orange. Takes billions actually.

 

[sha ah]

6th generation seems to me like more of a gimmick than anything. It just tries to implement more stealth features and they're supposed to have a loyal wingman, with some of the jets being unmanned. That's basically the future of UAVs. Drones that can fly as fast as jets, maneuver like jets, avoid incoming missiles by dispensing flares and using counter measures. Iran needs to work towards something like this (Turkey is already working on maneuverable and fast drones) Otherwise Iran will get left behind in the dust. Although I suspect that it will be years before we see any of the below fighter jets actually deployed and in service. Western weapons programs tend to be plagued with endless delays and cost over-runs.

All 6th gen fighter jet programs are manned. While we are now seeing unmanned concepts introduced (China’s Dark Sword and USA wingman) they are ment to support the next gen of fighters not replace them.

View attachment 873691

End of the day the deciding factor is quality of electronic subsystems, air to air weapon tech, and engine tech.

Future lies in hypersonic reusable vehicles. Currently we are at single use stage.

View attachment 873692

So Iran being the leader in this field when it’s not capable of building a 4th Gen heavy engine (at this time) let alone the tech needed for hypersonic scramjet is a peculiar conclusion when it’s UAVs are mostly turbo prop powered and its domestic fighter jet project is using J-85.

Enemy will be fielding high supersonic and hypersonic reusable vehicles for deep strike of HVTs in the 2040’s and 50’s.

Iran could take Kowsar right now and make it unmanned. Doesn’t mean anything taking the human out of the cockpit if your electronics and sats comms can’t do the at least the job of a human. But if you wanted to simply achieve an “unmanned fighter jet” you could do it today. Turkey is well underway in that regard. But it doesn’t mean it can hold its own against a 6th or 7th gen fighter because you slapped an engine into a unmanned airframe and put a FLIR on it.

Human being in the cockpit or not is irrelevant. In fact not being cockpit means even more advanced engine tech as you are no longer worried about G force effects on pilot and can start building airframes with hypersonic engines and advanced metallurgy techniques to cope with airframe stress.

So Iran at Owj and FJ-44 level making the leap to match or at least be competitive with rivals in unmanned fighter/drone jet field is still going to require an enormous amount of tech advancement and a dedicated effort by the state to grow the IRIAF and IRGC-AF.

Because RQ-170 drones flying with FJ-44 engines in 2040s is not going to cut it when your enemy can go from Bahrain to Tehran in 8 mins using a hypersonic reusable strike fighter with the RCS of a bee.

I guess you can say who cares we have our Missile fleet—which is true as long as war doesn’t break out due to enemy accepting high deterrence costs. In the event it does break out, then your underbelly will be exposed to air superiority gap wether manned or unmanned. Switching to unmanned doesn’t make it any easier for Iran.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

Iran is unlikely to be able to build anything except for F-4s until sanctions are removed and then even it will be very challenging. Iran has built some prototypes over the years, the issue is that they don't match or surpass global standards or even a modernized F-4, so then what is the point. The flanker at this point is Iran's most feasible option. Many people here object to such a proposition, but it is what it is. Iran has limited options and its airforce needs a sooner than later.

It looks like analysis of the 80s, you are really not serious. No one answered my question which is why Iran has made a new F-4 cell. I already have a good party of the answer. It is completely false, Iran is made much further than you think and the answer to that will come fairly quickly according to my analysis.

On the contrary, building several prototype is very intelligent. They do it with drones and air defense system because they test several technology at the same time. We will see the configuration of weapons on the Kowsar in the future which will demonstrate the genius of the Iranian. They managed to put very modern weapons on the F-7. Imagine how they have to have fun with Qaher-313 to experiment with new technology. He does it with other combat planes.

People also forget that old F-5s are upgraded in Kowsar world. Kowsar itself is continuously upgraded

 

[Hack-Hook]

I can see this as well.

What do you think of the Karrar being upgraded to a larger design, something like the US XQ-58 operating at a squadron level. Is this a necessary move?

For both sorties and combat air patrol

that will be sofreh-mahi if they decide to finish the project

Le'ts simplify things. Iran's only feasible option is the flanker. Relations between Russia and The US/EU/Israel have hit rock bottom. That drone deal between Iran-Russia might very well be part of a much larger deal.

no flanker is no solution at all , as its radar and electronic suits is outdated and cant compete with the radars and internal system of the fighters of the countries around us . also the philosophy that flankers are built upon are also dated and passed its time.

I've also heard that Iranian pilots are already training to fly SU-35s and SU-30s. It makes sense because the only other feasible options for Iran were the JF-17 which Iran rejected out of quality concerns and the J-10 which China will not trade for oil and because of potential sanctions concerns. I guess the US will have to actually target them and like they're doing to Russia until they learn their lesson.

do you have evidence for that ? let me answer you no there is no evidence for that , and it's not the first time such rumors are made.

Anyways i have no concerns about the SU-35. However when it comes to the the SU-30 Iran needs the software codes and technology transfers, as well as a deal to co-produce the fighters in Iran.I think that would be more than fair for both countries.

Su-30 even worse than Su-35, even latest models of Su-27 are better than su-30s , heck even JF-17 block III is better

Realistically though Iran needs alot more than jets from Russia. Iran needs help upgrading its existing fleets of MIG-29s with modern avionics, radars, weapons. Iran also might want to purchase some MIG-31s, just so it can launch large missiles (potentially in the future hypersonic) at enemys. Iran should also upgrade its SU-24s for the same reason, just to use them to launch missiles at enemy positionsl

yes Iran needs buy aircraft from Russia but iran have no business at all design and produce its own fighter jets and here people mock PGCC countries for buying weapon from USA which actually are a lot better than these air planes i hear they want Iran buy.

Iran is unlikely to be able to build anything except for F-4s until sanctions are removed and then even it will be very challenging. Iran has built some prototypes over the years, the issue is that they don't match or surpass global standards or even a modernized F-4, so then what is the point. The flanker at this point is Iran's most feasible option. Many people here object to such a proposition, but it is what it is. Iran has limited options and its airforce needs a sooner than later.

Iran even don't bother build anything based on F-4 , all is Iran building is based on F-5 namely kowsar and Yasin

 

[drmeson]

To build a serious fighter program while under sanctions and a shrinking economy was clearly not a wise decision during the thought processes of the establishment.

I believe and its my own personal assumption that leadership lost interest in IRIAF stems partly from antics pulled by the force itself in the 2000s and aviation organizations. The strategy of relying upon Missiles, UCAVs, and IADs is there and its a factor but not entirely. SL was invited to Saegheh-I 3-7600 first flight when it was presented as "F/A-18 equivalent". Did they tell him it was only some % rebuilt airframe and had no radar, fire control system? it did not even have a navigation suite so had to be flown with a chase plane. Before that was Azarakhsh which was ... "the first Iranian fighter jet" a HESA+CATIC (Chinese) rebuilt F-5E which was given the avionics of a J-7E. Then F-313. I remember a few Mirage F1s were moderately overhauled and given new paint jobs and the project head was claiming how he "broke the American back" by doing that. When you pull antics like this in front of people who are already standing on a thin ice, threatened by lobby groups, you lose credibility and even your real projects will be seen as meaningless gimmicks. How many people here understand or even know that Iran since 2018 has a 4.0 generation avionics, nav-coom, FBW suite? thats an achievement but that is all lost in the background because of past record of PR stunts.

All the while leadership saw IRGC going from Shahab-II to firing Glide vehicles with MaRVs on them at MRBM ranges. Them launching tri-staged SLVs from TEL, Bavar-373 tracking targets at 450 km and Sayyad's pulling 30 G's at 6 mach with their TVC. Who will they fund ?

Until we see finances of Iran improve, we will likely not see anything other than UCAVs.

Defence budget is not small. it is higher than even those countries that purchase weapons from outside. IRIAF portion in it is small.

The people who use so called intuition to guess the state of the IRIAF think you can make a fighter program with 10$ and a can of fanta orange. Takes billions actually.

Alright lets say out of the 24 Bln USD budget, if they just giving IRIAF some 1.7 Blillion USD. Following thing will happen:

1) 500 million for F-14AM Program. Yearly 10 x F-14A can be restored => upgraded to F-14AM standard which means the Airframe is thoroughly rebuilt, AWG-9 digitalized to provide its legendary 350+ km search range, new INS/TACAN, Fakour-90 LR-BVR. IRIAF possesses 60 airframes which can provide a solid force of ~45-48 long-range BVR attack capable interceptors that can beat the shit out of 75 % of the PGCC intruders over their own airspace. According to BT, OWJ already has mastered building an entire TF-30-P414 and airframe (partial building?) and is just waiting for $. The plane is also supposed to get a Meteor equivalent ARH BVR missile Maghsoud and an AIM-9X equivalent CCD guided missile.

2) 800 Million for Kowsar-I Program for a force of 65 Fighters @ 10 Million USD/Unit fighter and their Armaments as well. Radar, TDL, Nav-Comm, E-Warfare, FBW ... it is the most modern electronic system we have in the sky of Iran.

3) 500 Million for 23 x MIG-29 9.12 obsolete dying fleet gets upgraded with Zhuk M radars, E-warfare suites, R-77-1, R-74

Advantages
This force can provide 140 x 4.0 generation fighters all having modern avionics and weapons package. These can guard PG theatre and NW. The surface fleet will have air cover, helping IADS to the point that it won't get stretched and be attacked by SOWs of enemies. With growing time the enemy aircrafts will have lower RCS and longer range SOWs. They won't even need to enter Iranian airspace or even get near to it. They will just launch their EF-2000 and Rafales to fire supersonic SOWs at Iranian IADS. These fighters with their <1 m2 RCS won't be picked by GWACS search radars easily.

Only IRIAF can threaten this enemy in sky which it currently can't.

Why is it not happening?
Different theories among critics:

-No $ for IRIAF. heavy % of the budget is for Missile forces, IADS, UCAVs, Navy
-Lobbys within and at periphery of IRIAF fight with each other and MoD is losing interest in funding them.
-History of meaningless projects that added nothing of value to IRIAF (F-7N, MirageF1, Multiple Saeghe testbeds)
-Nojeh fearing people are still alive and in power. May be more scared after Turkish AF actions during coup.