IRIAF | News and Discussions

[drmeson]

Care to explain what a J-13 is?

J-13 is a typo

fixed

 

[GrandBotBoi]

All flankers are more or less the same. Its the same 1970s designed airframe that keeps getting marketed under different names with mid to high levels of avionics change or mild airframe changes. If Russians had F-15 they would have been calling the F-15SE as F-40 or F-45 to milk the fighter jet market with new coating. Russians have this habit.

MIG-35 is MIG-29 9.13 => MIG-29M =>MIG-29M2.
SU-27SM gave birth to the entire SU-30, 33, 34, 35, J-11, J-15, J-16 family.
MIG-27 => MIG-23BN
SU-17 =. SU-20 = SU-22
MIG-31 is MIG-25's mature product.

Before SU-57, Russia had not unvieled a new airframe for past ~40 years.

And none of them are drastically different from each other. This airframe has an elephant-sized RCS from every aspect possible and is high priced and maintenance-heavy fighter that you can't just hide in a normal-sized hardened bunker or in underground bases. Luckily it never got in an A2A combat with light weight monsters like MIG-29M, Rafale, JAS-39E, F-16Block52, F-18E/F or we would have seen it getting shot down. I would not even be surprised if SU-35S (15+ m2, ~100-120 KM track range) by any slight chance get into IRIAF and Kowsar-I (1 m2 RCS, ~90-100 KM track range) surprises it in a A2A excersize.

SU-35S can track and engage at around 300km, not a mere 120km. That's around double to triple that of the likes of Rafale, Gripen-E, F-16, and F/A-18 Super Hornet

 

[drmeson]

SU-35S can track and engage at around 300km, not a mere 120km. That's around double to triple that of the likes of Rafale, Gripen-E, F-16, and F/A-18 Super Hornet

This was a big controversy some years back. Even in their own promotional video SU-35S with an IRBIS-E could not get an engagement track on an already detected ~1-3m2 target anywhere above 100 KM. Russian users denied this and said the target was probably <1 m2. So It is upto the person what they want to believe in. Entire globe still prefers western avionics package for a reason.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-why-the-sukhoi-su-35-is-the-most-overhyped-4th-generation-fighter-aircraft/

In a head-to-head engagement between a 2 x PL-12/15 (100-150 KM) armed Kowsar-I (1m2 RCS) flying with Bayyenat-II/Grifo346 and multiple R-77E (80 KM) armed SU-35S (15-20 m2 RCS) flying with IRBIS-E, who would track the adversary and shoot its ARH BVR missiles at the other first? Mind you in the price of one SU-35S you get 8 Kowsar-I. You either get 24 SU-35S or 192 Kowsar-I. If the same avionics package of Kowsar-I is put on a physically strong fighter like MIG-29 of IRIAF then it would become a very strong platform. Modern aircrafts are like electronic laboratories flying. The age of who flies fast and rolls better wins is almost gone. People here do not appreciate the fact that HESA and IEI have hit a jackpot with domestic production of top of the line GRIFO-346 as Bayyenat-II +e-warfare suit of Kowsar-I. It can track even multiple 1m2 targets at 93 KM for BVR engagement. It is the most advanced western radar for its weight and size (80-85 KG). Most advanced in entire portfolio of Leonardo after their top product GRIFO-E (AESA). If Russia fux us again and provides no useful MIG fleet upgradation IRIAF should get its 23 x MIGS totally upgraded to Kowsar-I standards avionics wise. Some 70 x Kowsar-1 + 23 x MIGs with this package with vitalize the interception package with ~44 F-14A/AM. IRIAF's biggest agenda should be small size ARH BVR missile. Fakour-90 or future Maghsouds are long range heavy BVR missiles and will be of no use to anything other than F-14AM.

Leonardo Grifo-346

IEI Bayyenat-II

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/pubs/GRIFO_M346_LQ_mm07796_.pdf


Btw key aero article mentioned that some ~43 (or 50?) x F-7N/FT-7N in IRIAF possession are getting new wings, tails, cockpits, seats and canopies along with the ditto avionics+radar package as Kowsar-I. IRIAF has a long history of squadron-based lobbyism for funding fuel ego-driven dud projects of no battle value. One of them was called "Mirage F1" and the other is "F-7N". These ego lobbyists should be fired. 23 x Mirage F1 serve as canvas for periodic new paint jobs in IRIAF and do not even have functioning pylons for A2A missiles let alone a functioning radar. Their numbers are not even high enough to think of a local upgradation, what are they even doing in IRIAF is beyond me. Them and F-7N's are burdens. F-5E/F atleast served us in the war and are being sacrificed to help create Kowsar-I's construction repository.

 

[RΛIDEN]

J-13 is a typo

fixed

Deino reminds me of Catsoo, the moderator from IMF. Good ol days

 

[Abid123]

well if the engine instead of WS-10a was WS-10b

Agree but SU-35 has PESA radar while the J-16 has a AESA radar. Even Algeria rejected the SU-35.

 

[TheImmortal]

23 x Mirage F1 serve as canvas for periodic new paint jobs in IRIAF and do not even have functioning pylons for A2A missiles let alone a functioning radar.

F-1 can fire AIM-9 and other French A2A missiles. It’s mostly used for A2G not A2A role. Wingtip pylons do exist on F-1, Cant speak for Iranian F-1.

Even if Iranian F-1 is basically a metal shell, it can be equipped with wing tip pylons and a semi-decent radar. A2A inventory will be limited since Iran bought a French plane and now has no military relations with France while the rest of its airforce is US based or Russian.

Nonetheless, capability exists to upgrade F-1 to a capable standard. At the very least is teach pilots on a supersonic plane.

I’m not sure how many air hours are pilots are getting, but I am sure it is not nearly enough due to the stress on the airframes of our 30+ year old fleets.

 

[SalarHaqq]

Luckily it never got in an A2A combat with light weight monsters like MIG-29M, Rafale, JAS-39E, F-16Block52, F-18E/F or we would have seen it getting shot down.

Ethiopia's Su-27SK faced off in air-to-air combat against Eritrean Mig-29A's in 1999.

And the Flankers won the battle hands down. Eritrea was impressed enough to buy some examples of their own from Russia after the war.

_____

How Flankers fought Fulcrums in the skies over Africa​

Jan 14 2022
Igor Rozin

https://www.rbth.com/history/334639...m/history/334639-how-flankers-fought-fulcrums
_____

I'm of the opinion Iran should ditch its Mig-29 (along with the other obsolete fighters you regularly mention) as soon as a viable replacement becomes available. To my knowledge there's no example of an impressive use of the type in war. It seems the only thing interesting about IRIAF's Fulcrums are their engines.

---

A2A inventory will be limited since Iran bought a French plane and now has no military relations with France while the rest of its airforce is US based or Russian.

Iran never bought fighter jets from France, the Mirage F-1's were received from Iraq as part of the package Saddam asked Iran to shelter during the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf war (and never got back).

 

[GrandBotBoi]

Agree but SU-35 has PESA radar while the J-16 has a AESA radar. Even Algeria rejected the SU-35.

Because Algeria bought SU-57 and SU-30 already

This was a big controversy some years back. Even in their own promotional video SU-35S with an IRBIS-E could not get an engagement track on an already detected ~1-3m2 target anywhere above 100 KM. Russian users denied this and said the target was probably <1 m2. So It is upto the person what they want to believe in. Entire globe still prefers western avionics package for a reason.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-why-the-sukhoi-su-35-is-the-most-overhyped-4th-generation-fighter-aircraft/

In a head-to-head engagement between a 2 x PL-12/15 (100-150 KM) armed Kowsar-I (1m2 RCS) flying with Bayyenat-II/Grifo346 and multiple R-77E (80 KM) armed SU-35S (15-20 m2 RCS) flying with IRBIS-E, who would track the adversary and shoot its ARH BVR missiles at the other first? Mind you in the price of one SU-35S you get 8 Kowsar-I. You either get 24 SU-35S or 192 Kowsar-I. If the same avionics package of Kowsar-I is put on a physically strong fighter like MIG-29 of IRIAF then it would become a very strong platform. Modern aircrafts are like electronic laboratories flying. The age of who flies fast and rolls better wins is almost gone. People here do not appreciate the fact that HESA and IEI have hit a jackpot with domestic production of top of the line GRIFO-346 as Bayyenat-II +e-warfare suit of Kowsar-I. It can track even multiple 1m2 targets at 93 KM for BVR engagement. It is the most advanced western radar for its weight and size (80-85 KG). Most advanced in entire portfolio of Leonardo after their top product GRIFO-E (AESA). If Russia fux us again and provides no useful MIG fleet upgradation IRIAF should get its 23 x MIGS totally upgraded to Kowsar-I standards avionics wise. Some 70 x Kowsar-1 + 23 x MIGs with this package with vitalize the interception package with ~44 F-14A/AM. IRIAF's biggest agenda should be small size ARH BVR missile. Fakour-90 or future Maghsouds are long range heavy BVR missiles and will be of no use to anything other than F-14AM.

Leonardo Grifo-346
View attachment 863388

IEI Bayyenat-II
View attachment 863389


https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/pubs/GRIFO_M346_LQ_mm07796_.pdf


Btw key aero article mentioned that some ~43 (or 50?) x F-7N/FT-7N in IRIAF possession are getting new wings, tails, cockpits, seats and canopies along with the ditto avionics+radar package as Kowsar-I. IRIAF has a long history of squadron-based lobbyism for funding fuel ego-driven dud projects of no battle value. One of them was called "Mirage F1" and the other is "F-7N". These ego lobbyists should be fired. 23 x Mirage F1 serve as canvas for periodic new paint jobs in IRIAF and do not even have functioning pylons for A2A missiles let alone a functioning radar. Their numbers are not even high enough to think of a local upgradation, what are they even doing in IRIAF is beyond me. Them and F-7N's are burdens. F-5E/F atleast served us in the war and are being sacrificed to help create Kowsar-I's construction repository.

Do you have a source for that first claim?

 

[TheImmortal]

Iran never bought fighter jets from France, the Mirage F-1's were received from Iraq as part of the package Saddam asked Iran to shelter during the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf war (and never got back).

You are right.

However, Iran can still upgrade the plane. It won’t be an A2A fighter, but if knock on it is that it can’t fire the A2A off wingtip....it can. If the knock is it doesn’t have a capable radar...it can. Iran has plenty of A2G munitions to give it with a targeting pod on its pylon.

You never scrap a fighter jet when you don’t have alternatives. Even US with its $700B budget and several NATO nations fly older planes.

Iran doesn’t have the luxury to mothball F-1 and F-7. I’m all for Iran modernizing it’s airforce, but it’s 20 years of tinkering around with what is now Kowsar. And rumored deals with Russia or China.

Until Iran unveils it’s medium and heavy engines, that’s about the best (size) plane it can hope to produce.

 

[drmeson]

F-1 can fire AIM-9 and other French A2A missiles. It’s mostly used for A2G not A2A role. Wingtip pylons do exist on F-1, Cant speak for Iranian F-1.

IRIAF F1 can't fire anything actually. Just one picture of them ever exists flying with practice rounds of AIM-9J/P on wingtips and then apparently project got abandoned decade+ ago to arm them. Then one picture exists with practice rounds of PL-7C on the ground and that is about it.

Even if Iranian F-1 is basically a metal shell, it can be equipped with wing tip pylons and a semi-decent radar. A2A inventory will be limited since Iran bought a French plane and now has no military relations with France while the rest of its airforce is US based or Russian.

Iran did not purchase them ??? I am surprised you dont know this. These are ex IQAF gifts. Some of these airframes have fought against IRIAF, one of them, can't remember its serial, was the one that dodged Hashem Ale Agha's AIM-54 strike.

Their maintenance is not worth the money for two reasons.

(1) This is a complicated platform to maintain, Iranian aviation industries are not built around Mirages, they are built around F-5E/F, F-14A, and F-4E/D which is why these three have been built from scratch (F-5E/F), rebuilt (F-5E/F, F-4E/D), upgraded (F-4 E/D Dowran, F-14AM) etc. Even their armaments in form of Fakour-90, Fattar, Nasr, Ghader AShCM, Ya-Ali LACM, Glide PGMs are designed indigenously but the same can't be said about any other platform in Iran. HESA cant even pull a decent level upgrade on MIG, Sukhoi fleet let alone MirageF1. I am not sure OWJ can handle SNECMA Atar turbojets, besides zero evidence exists if Mirage F-1 fleet's Cyrano radars (obsolete) have ever been touched inside Iran. Hardly you will find a picture of them with a functioning pylon. These are circus prop planes at best who can just fly with some radio guidance or with chase planes (never seen with TACA, ILS, RWR).

(2) IRIAF initially had no plan to have them. They were supposed to have gone to trash like MIG-23/25/27 from Iraq. They were forcibly integrated into IRIAF at the behest of some Iran-Iraq war heroes in 1990s like Col. Naghdibek, RIP, who flew it and found it "western" enough for IRIAF high standards so a lobby got created in IRIAF to keep them flying without any battle value. Similar case is with F-7N Lobby that got created when a group in IRIAF lobbied for MIG-21PFM imports (Ex East Germans). Again fighter pilots made decisions instead of strategists and we lost money on this platform's maintenance. The same money could have gone to Sattari's original Azarakhsh program of an Iranian F-20+. Azarakhsh program faced severe money shortage at design board after Sattari's death which is why Kowsar-I (practically Azarakhsh II) got late by some 10 years. If IRIAF had serious planners like Sattari himself we could have had Kowsar-II (Azarakhsh III) by now. A single Turbofan powered low RCS fighter with AESA, HOTAS, LRBVR etc. Instead, the money went to stupidities like F-7N/FT-7N procurement, Saeghe test bed propoganda, Mirage F1 integration/maintenance etc.

Nonetheless, capability exists to upgrade F-1 to a capable standard. At the very least is teach pilots on a supersonic plane.

The best IRIAF can do is to either put IRIAF F-4E/D Dowran avionics suite on F-1 which they can not because its nosecone is tremendously small to carry Bayyenat-I radar of Dowrans upgrades of F-4E/D. It also has not much space for avionics, unlike Phantom's large airframe, nor the wing + fuselage area to get into AShCM/LACM launching role.

Or

They can put Kowsar-I's avionics suite on it with radar, e-warfare suite, and Fattar IR seeking all aspect weapons. If they do it, the plane will superbly come to French upgraded Morrocan MF-2000 standards or slightly higher since Bayyenat-II is much smaller and lighter than MF2000's RDY-3 (Mirage 2000-5 radar) to carry so additional ECCM or an IRST device can be barged in. Problem with this upgrade will be that at the end of it, IRIAF will have 23 x MF-2000 standard fighters which they can get by just extending Kowsar-I's current plan of 65-70 aircraft to 100 aircrafts. They can play around with OWJ turbojets but they can't do the same with SNECMA Atars. Kowsar-I airframe, from scratch or repository rebuilt is modern with composite use, FBW, new landing gears, cockpits, etc while MF-2000 airframe may have strain marks by now. A separate upgradation line will need to be set up. Waste of money if you ask me.

I’m not sure how many air hours are pilots are getting, but I am sure it is not nearly enough due to the stress on the airframes of our 30+ year old fleets.

Mirages only serve in mixed squadrons in IRIAF at Chabahar with Dowran F-4E/Ds and at Doshan Tappeh training facility (Tehran). It tells us the plane has no radar or any armament. It's either being used for mission training only or flies with other mission-capable upgraded planes like Dowran F-4E/Ds at chabahar. The best for IRIAF will be to get rid of this flying tube ASAP and put the maintenance money in Kowsar-I/II program. The same goes for F-7N and the entire fleet of F-5E/F/R/A.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Ethiopia's Su-27K faced off in air-to-air combat against Eritrean Mig-29A's in 1999.

And the Flankers won the battle hands down. Eritrea was impressed enough to buy some examples of their own from Russia after the war.

_____

How Flankers fought Fulcrums in the skies over Africa​

Jan 14 2022
Igor Rozin

https://www.rbth.com/history/334639...m/history/334639-how-flankers-fought-fulcrums
_____

I'm of the opinion Iran should ditch its Mig-29 (along with the other obsolete fighters you regularly mention) as soon as a viable replacement becomes available. To my knowledge there's no example of an impressive use of the type in war. It seems the only thing interesting about IRIAF's Fulcrums are their engines.

come on in this forum we are screaming for more than two month that Fulcrum-A or Mig-29 9.12b the one gave to non-Warsaw pact is a shit airplane that don't have any countermeasure and is equipped with a shitty radar that provide nearly no battle situation for pilot and cant track anything even at 40km

and by the way SU-27k or Su-33 never exported to any country Ethiopia got Su-27S, Su-27P, Su-27UB

You are right.

However, Iran can still upgrade the plane. It won’t be an A2A fighter, but if knock on it is that it can’t fire the A2A off wingtip....it can. If the knock is it doesn’t have a capable radar...it can. Iran has plenty of A2G munitions to give it with a targeting pod on its pylon.

You never scrap a fighter jet when you don’t have alternatives. Even US with its $700B budget and several NATO nations fly older planes.

Iran doesn’t have the luxury to mothball F-1 and F-7. I’m all for Iran modernizing it’s airforce, but it’s 20 years of tinkering around with what is now Kowsar. And rumored deals with Russia or China.

Until Iran unveils it’s medium and heavy engines, that’s about the best (size) plane it can hope to produce.

those f-1 are sinkhole for funding and have no actual use , even Taliban hit one of them several years ago

 

[SalarHaqq]

come on in this forum we are screaming for more than two month that Fulcrum-A or Mig-29 9.12b the one gave to non-Warsaw pact is a shit airplane that don't have any countermeasure and is equipped with a shitty radar that provide nearly no battle situation for pilot and cant track anything even at 40km

So? What's the point of quoting me to respond with the above?

and by the way SU-27k or Su-33 never exported to any country Ethiopia got Su-27S, Su-27P, Su-27UB

Typo, Su-27SK I meant, as stated in the article I cited. But no, Ethiopia didn't get any Su-27S.

 

[Hack-Hook]

And? What's your point, why are you quoting me to respond with this?

the point is defeating Mig-29 9.12b is no measure for a platform being capable

 

[SalarHaqq]

the point is defeating Mig-29 9.12b is no measure for a platform being capable

The encounter was between the basic versions of both fighters. And the Sukhoi proved superior to the Mig. The question was how these two compare with each other.

 

[Hack-Hook]

The encounter was between the basic versions of both fighters. And the Sukhoi proved superior to the Mig. The question was how these two compare with each other.

again anything is better than mig-29 9.12b in this case R-27e of Su-27 have it an edge over mig-29 that only used R-27 (that gave Su-27 aound 20km more range) and the small matter of the fact that su-27 were flown by Russian and su-27 actualy had a basic electric warfare system even in its basic version.


but the radar in the airplane was RLPK-27

N001 has a 1.075m antenna diameter twist-cassegrain antenna. A pulse-doppler design operating in the 3 cm band using medium and high PRFs for optimum lookdown capability, the N001 has a search range of 80–100 km against a 3m2 m RCS target in a headon engagement, 140 km against a large bomber. It can track a 3m2 target at 65 km. In a pursuit engagement, search range for a 3m2 target falls to just 40 km. Azimuth limits are ±60. Initial units had a MTBF of only 5 hours, but later type is 100 hours; MTBF was eventually brought up to 200 hours. The Su-33 used an updated SUV-33 control system, the N001 radar was largely unchanged but with sea optimised lookdown capability and support for the carrier-based GCI system.

as you see against a 3sqm target it has an engagement range of 65 and 40km (compare that to 40 and 20km of Mig-29)
in short still a shitty radar