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Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they stick around for a while as they are because they are relatively new and might still be providing some info or testing something. Also I do like their unique look and think they will be historically known as the laboratories that led to the first indigenous trainer/fighter.
Has me wondering something though, just as it seems that not all T72s are being fully converted to the karrar standard, do you suppose all the F-5s will be turned into kowsars, or will some of them receive partial refits/upgrades and not the whole conversion?

You may be right about sustaining these 6 airframes as flying laboratories because whatever Kowsar-I is or the hypothetical next gen will be, is because of Azarakhsh + Saeqeh-I/II program so their significance is there. They tested many things on these Frankensteins that we are seeing in Kowsar. Yes the program got late by a healthy 7-8 years, Kowsar should have been there by the early 2010s so that HESA would have its hands free for research on next generation. But, if you consider other countries who worked on 4.0 generation light fighters they all got late from their schedules even with massive foriegn help.

As for Kowsar program or conversion, we can see the numbers of the current Tiger II fleet to judge what they are doing. So by the start of 2000, IRIAF had ~65 F-5E/F + around 11 airframes they purchased from Vietnam and Ethiopia. These 11 airframes got dismantled to produce 7 Airframes of Azarakhsh and Saegheh-I/II. This left us with the fleet of 63 F-5E/F (2 crashes) which are currently in service in 5 mixed squadrons. Flightglobal confirms at least 35-45 serial numbers through pics, 16 F-5EF + ~44 F-5E.

Azarakhsh- Kowsar-Saegheh program of Local F-5E/F derivatives to me is almost a replica of the Israeli Nesher-Kfir-Nammar program for Mirage-V. Initial Kfir-C airframes were rebuilt from French-supplied Mirage-III/V (I think ~60). Tom Cooper did some research on them and he even found some parts of airframes of Nesher/Kfir even to this day have metal tags from Dassault on them despite israeli claims of total indigenous production. But thats only the intial 60-70 airframes, 160+ further airframes Kfir-C7 and beyond were built in Israel from scratch like Kowsar-I 37400 was built from scratch as a demonstrated capability that at any time we can add as many planes as we want. 1 Billion USD means 100+ brand new Kowsar as a rough estimate.

Right now, like Kfir, the Kowsar program is a mixture of severe level extensive re-building for 7.5 Million USD + brand new airframes for 9 Million. If BT is to be believed, there will be some ~65 Kowsar-I with Bayyenat-I/Grifo 346, IEI E-warfare suites, Datalink, FBW etc. We have already seen some 18-24 airframes inside HESA out of this number while squadrons of F-5E/F + Saeqeh are not being grounded which means their production (just like Kfir) is more extensive then just conversions. My guess is that over the years, they have created a repository of indestructible parts from existing airframes (like Kfir used Dassault made Mirage V) + brand new local built parts (70 % Kfir was local airframe) and then you have a new Kowsar-I with 0 hour life status. Nothing different from a brand new Kowsar (example 3-7400). So beyond this number of 65 x Kowsar-I will come the next generation in which every single fighter will have to be built entirely from scratch because Tiger II repository by then will be exhausted already and they will need to retire beaten body fleet of 73 x MIRAGEF1 + F-7N by late 2020s so the numbers will have to be filled in otherwise we will get squadrons cut or filled with fast MALE UCAVs as force multipliers. Or worst, if MIG fleet doesnt get the required MLU+Upgradation that it badly needs then you are down by 23 x 4th Gen BVR fighter in your interceptor force. In that case, numbers will have to be made up by brand new Kowsar-I or II whichever will be available by that time.

What will be the next generation of Kowsar/Saegheh program can be judged by the fact how Kfir program unrolled. Kfir itself was turning into a competition for Mirage-2000 market in 1990s. They themselves had plan to create Nammar the next generation of Kfir which would have been 4+ by now with upgrades but with incoming F-16/15 and later F-35 program they just put the project in shelves.. The recent most Kfir-C block 60 which Israelis are trying to market as a new plane from their storage has on par avionics package to Mirage 2000-9. HESA's next fighter in IMO post 65 x Kowsar-I will similarly be 4+ generation at least in terms of radar, avionics, navigation, comm etc. If they fit a larger turbofan inside then you get better physical performance too. Will it have twin tails like Saegheh or one like Kowsar is to be decided. So IRIAF by 2026 will end up with 145 x strong fleet of Interceptors i.e. F-14AM (45-47) + MIG-29 (23) MLUed and upgraded locally + 65 x Kowsar-I. Not a bad force of 12 x 4.0 generation squadrons with LR-BVR and strong e-warfare. Kowsar-II will then start adding upto this force with some 6-8 aircrafts per year. Currently the Missile/Space program, UCAVs, and navy are taking a huge chunk. When the production of Kowsar's 65 aircraft be done by 2026-27, at least the some of the naval constructions be done too so IRIAF might receive the funds to (A) procure 4++ gen which is difficult (B) Produce Kowsar-II.

F-4E/D Dowran will stay but IMO there is a chance that SU-24M might ... might end up either in storage or long shot, in Assad's hands just like a local MLUed SU-22 squadron went there previously. SU-24M are becoming a problem for IRIAF. Not much of local infrastructure is available and the fleet is small to invest time, the money on. Without MLU or upgrade, I see them not taking off in a few years. Signs are there, the recent most IRIAF pics on spotter websites have few pics of IRIAF SU-24 being airborne and we are seeing no evidence of it receiving some new weaponry either. Compare the extensive upgradations of squadrons of F-4E/D. Shows us the priorities of IRIAF.

I actually like the new pixelated paint scheme of the refitted cobras and the angled camo motifs of the AM tomcats.
Had me thinking earlier that weapons of war in the older days were actually decorated and looked quite lovely so you can blur the boundaries of the two a bit. The kowsars paint also looks gorgeous. In the old idf forum I think it was gomig21 who had posted pics of a pair of F16s painted in what I called sugar and spice or fire and ice motifs and colors. So long as they don't compromise the aircraft's capabilities, why not be artistic with them like in the much older days.

Yes 70s and 80s were all about camo'ed fighter jets. Then in 2000s things changed to metallic grey. I personally like the American way of keeping the entire fleet metallic grey for standardization. Looks robotically professional and deadly. Modern airforces around us took the same route, while isolated from the world, IRIAF refused to understand the meaning of standardization so we have splinter + Blue + Navy blue + Cream yellow + green + and what not. Except for the piloting skills, ace of aces in this force, I have zero respect for their management skills. It's like squadrons and bases are run by people with HUGE egoes.
 
Militaries all around the world try to make everything in standard "form", "shape" "color"..etc..whenever possible..the reason being able to recognize, re-use, or swap/interchange and maintain gears in a the hectic combat situation. Nato countries are very serious about the "Standardization" process . Logistics is also a big driver of "Standardization"..imagine spare parts warehousing of five different type of weapon that basically do the same job..imagine the poor service guy who has to fix them..and all the training materials that have to prepared...
In Iranian military I notice a total freedom of style, shape, color, naming..etc which is great if you are selling commercial products but not if you are selling warmachines....how many different uniforms we have in Iranian military..how many rifles ..etc

My point...I do not care if they paint all aircraft pink..just make all of them pink...and stay with it..If you want to be recognized as a professional organization these "not so important" issues become important..:undecided::undecided:

Great post. Professionalism starts from standardization. Its like all the Artesh branches and IRGC went one way while IRIAF went south. Can't believe this is the force of Hashem Ale-Agha, Roastami and Jalil Zandi lol.
 
Great post. Professionalism starts from standardization. Its like all the Artesh branches and IRGC went one way while IRIAF went south. Can't believe this is the force of Hashem Ale-Agha, Roastami and Jalil Zandi lol.
Since the release of MIL-STD-2161 in 1993, the US Navy's tactical aircraft use a color scheme designed to reduce visual detection that consists of shades of flat gray with exterior markings applied in a contrasting shade of gray.[10] Note that the stated purpose of this document is to standardize paint schemes and application of naval insignia and markings.

and the airforce
they have these two livery for F-35 they must be quiet unprofessional and discipline must have gone south there
__Qf2AjLwojIjJCLyojI0JCLiQ3cvBXPt9mcm9TZnFWbp5CM4ATM6ADOwEjOqJ2btYHbwRnfmdTM0UDZ3ADOkFTYzQWOhhjMlRzNjljZyIWOzYDNwU2LcdzbykGNzNWZpNXLp1ibj1ycvR3LcdWbp9CXt92YucWbp9WYpRXdvRnL2A3Lc9CX6MHc0RHaiojIsJye.webp

9ZDMuAjOiMmIsIjOiQnIsICdz9Gc902byZ2PldWYtlmLwYTO6ADN0EjOqJ2btYHbwRnfmFTNklTO5EGZmV2MkBTMiNWOzQDZkJDZ1EmNjRTY1YzLcdzbykGNzNWZpNXLp1ibj1ycvR3LcdWbp9CXt92YucWbp9WYpRXdvRnL2A3Lc9CX6MHc0RHaiojIsJye.webp

and they have F-18 in two blue and grey color
 
Since the release of MIL-STD-2161 in 1993, the US Navy's tactical aircraft use a color scheme designed to reduce visual detection that consists of shades of flat gray with exterior markings applied in a contrasting shade of gray.[10] Note that the stated purpose of this document is to standardize paint schemes and application of naval insignia and markings.

and the airforce
they have these two livery for F-35 they must be quiet unprofessional and discipline must have gone south there
__Qf2AjLwojIjJCLyojI0JCLiQ3cvBXPt9mcm9TZnFWbp5CM4ATM6ADOwEjOqJ2btYHbwRnfmdTM0UDZ3ADOkFTYzQWOhhjMlRzNjljZyIWOzYDNwU2LcdzbykGNzNWZpNXLp1ibj1ycvR3LcdWbp9CXt92YucWbp9WYpRXdvRnL2A3Lc9CX6MHc0RHaiojIsJye.webp

9ZDMuAjOiMmIsIjOiQnIsICdz9Gc902byZ2PldWYtlmLwYTO6ADN0EjOqJ2btYHbwRnfmFTNklTO5EGZmV2MkBTMiNWOzQDZkJDZ1EmNjRTY1YzLcdzbykGNzNWZpNXLp1ibj1ycvR3LcdWbp9CXt92YucWbp9WYpRXdvRnL2A3Lc9CX6MHc0RHaiojIsJye.webp

and they have F-18 in two blue and grey color

1657313532350.png

1657313952202.png
 
my favorite colorful livery

Colors never look good on professional men or military equipmet. There is a reason disciplined institutions have a strict dress code preference for black/dark blue/grey etc, same goes for machinary where standardization is a must. IIAF/IRIAF was itself just one splinter toned force when radars/BVR missiles were not that powerful and every confrontation ended up in a WVR engagement. Then this age was gone and everyone else got modern/standardized around us in 2000s, we did not.

If you want to hire a lawyer to fight for your life and you are not allowed to see their CV which one would you hire ?
1657356808133.png
Or
1657356823013.png


Perception of your lethality in the eyes of enemy is part of warfare. With this graffiti antics we are sending out wrong message.
 
Colors never look good on professional men or military equipmet. There is a reason disciplined institutions have a strict dress code preference for black/dark blue/grey etc, same goes for machinary where standardization is a must.
corporate minded thinking tend to hammer everybody into same shape and kill any difference.
only kill innovation.
IIAF/IRIAF was itself just one splinter toned force when radars/BVR missiles were not that powerful and every confrontation ended up in a WVR engagement. Then this age was gone and everyone else got modern/standardized around us in 2000s, we did not.
splinter camouflage or any camouflage is not intended for normal BVR engagement scenario , for that you can fill the airplane with neon lights and it won't matter. its for low altitude flight and WVR engagement.
every airforce must look at environment it fight and decide what their environment is and act accordingly as i said Airforce tried the grey blue approach on the F-14s it didn't work they changed it again to desert camouflage , thats our environment , its not like russian army that light blue and grey-vwhite suit them or American army that have a MIL-STD-2161 that designed to make their airplanes blend in high sea and high altitude sky and grey shade suit them best
our environment is desert and Persian gulf , we must respect it, we cant fight with our environment , we must become in tone with it. i agree the splinter camouflage is old and need to be upgraded to a digital one. about the color painting airplane grey only goof for its belly side , the top side must be painted a digitalized desert cameo.

and about grey , its old news right now USA is working on a mirror camouflage
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the purpose is to reduce the effectiveness of IRST on SU-35 and Su-57

If you want to hire a lawyer to fight for your life and you are not allowed to see their CV which one would you hire ?
View attachment 860226 OrView attachment 860227

Perception of your lethality in the eyes of enemy is part of warfare. With this graffiti antics we are sending out wrong message.
I choose none , if it a most probably flip a coin .
but no enemy get fooled by a paint job , they look at what subsystem your aircrafts have
 
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there is no Iranian Su-35 and Russia won't give us any by any situation and price agreeable to us .,and Russia is in no situation to give any away , they need all of them for themselves.
raisi talks was all about security and commerce , not buying weapons, by the way we don't have su-25 but who care
 
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