IRIAF | News and Discussions

[TheImmortal]

It isn't F-5 and you know it. The avionics, radars, digital display, engines, the missiles it cast carry, plus additional features that we don't know of are all different and much more advanced.

Can you share the plane that you referred to here?

The fighters frame is still an F-5 clone. So unless Iran develop technology that can defy the laws of physics. That plane will fly exactly like an F-5.

F-5’s struggled against MiG-21 during the Iran-Iraq war. But somehow with a slightly upgraded radar and avionics they will take on 4th gen fighters and 5th gen?

fat chance, keep wishing.

 

[Sina-1]

That plane will fly exactly like an F-5.

Of course it doesn’t have the same flying characteristics! It’s has canards and anhedral wings. Furthermore the shape of the entire aircraft fuselage is different? Please elaborate how it “will fly exactly like f5”?

 

[925boy]

Of course it doesn’t have the same flying characteristics! It’s has canards and anhedral wings. Furthermore the shape of the entire aircraft fuselage is different? Please elaborate how it “will fly exactly like f5”?

I'm seeing this man's jumps in logic more and more. He assumes that since the body is the same, everything else is the same, which is incorrect. Many other things can be changed in something as complex as a fighter jet and chose to simply ignore those things exist.

His logic also doesnt work for Iranian T-72 and Karrar MBT though. We know/believe karrar is an upgraded T-72, so why doesnt he go ahead and say karrar is the same function as T-72 since it has the same body? smfh.

 

[TheImmortal]

I'm seeing this man's jumps in logic more and more. He assumes that since the body is the same, everything else is the same, which is incorrect. Many other things can be changed in something as complex as a fighter jet and chose to simply ignore those things exist.

His logic also doesnt work for Iranian T-72 and Karrar MBT though. We know/believe karrar is an upgraded T-72, so why doesnt he go ahead and say karrar is the same function as T-72 since it has the same body? smfh.

So you just agreed that the body is the same?

Thanks for making my point.

Radar doesn’t change how the aircraft flies. A HUDs up display doesn’t change how fast the aircraft turns. So again thanks for making my point.

F-5 is at best an advanced trainer with some CAS capability. It’s radar even if upgraded will be very weak compared to the radars of F-22, SU-35, and other interceptors. The fact is the nose can only fit a small radar. Go look at other countries’ upgraded F-5’s radar stats they are not impressive. But I’m sure you will counter Iran created a revolutionary new micro radar that can detect low RCS objects.

 

[Sina-1]

So you just agreed that the body is the same?

Thanks for making my point.

the body is not ”the same”. Widely different shape, configuration, number and placement of control surfaces -> widely different flying characteristics. Anybody saying otherwise needs prove otherwise.

That plane will fly exactly like an F-5.

Simply put: No it will not!

 

[TheImmortal]

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the body is not ”the same”. Widely different shape, configuration, number and placement of control surfaces -> widely different flying characteristics. Anybody saying otherwise needs prove otherwise.



Simply put: No it will not!

Why are you showing me pictures of F-313 when the conversation is about Kowsar?

Can the mods start requiring an IQ test on this board?

 

[Sina-1]

Why are you showing me pictures of F-313 when the conversation is about Kowsar?

Can the mods start requiring an IQ test on this board?

 

[TheImmortal]

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Yes, my post was they were going to unveil another F-5 based clone like Kowsar and give it another name. The joke was this time they would change the wheel color to pass it off as a new design.

We have had Azarkarsh, Saeghe I, Saeghe II, Kowsar.

So no where did I mention F-313. That project isn’t even worth talking about at this point since there is no news on it.

 

[VEVAK]

Yes, my post was they were going to unveil another F-5 based clone like Kowsar and give it another name. The joke was this time they would change the wheel color to pass it off as a new design.

We have had Azarkarsh, Saeghe I, Saeghe II, Kowsar.

So no where did I mention F-313. That project isn’t even worth talking about at this point since there is no news on it.

For Iran continuing a viable upgrade program on the F-5 until you can come up with something worth mass producing is most definitely a logical course of action.

Also, Simorgh, Azarakhsh, Saegheh I/II & Kowsar regardless of all the deferent names are and have always been one project and that has always been an attempt to upgrade the F-5 into a capable fighter that could hold it's own that would be worth mass producing. And the upgreades in the Kowsar were a huge leap in Iran's domestic fighter program.

as for the Q-313 your right other than being a nice tech demonstrator, at least in it's current configuration it's really not a platform with real world capabilities that would be worth taking into production.

 

[TheImmortal]

For Iran continuing a viable upgrade program on the F-5 until you can come up with something worth mass producing is most definitely a logical course of action.

Also, Simorgh, Azarakhsh, Saegheh I/II & Kowsar regardless of all the deferent names are and have always been one project and that has always been an attempt to upgrade the F-5 into a capable fighter that could hold it's own that would be worth mass producing. And the upgreades in the Kowsar were a huge leap in Iran's domestic fighter program.

as for the Q-313 your right other than being a nice tech demonstrator, at least in it's current configuration it's really not a platform with real world capabilities that would be worth taking into production.

Take a Paykan and add all the bells and whistles you want to. It doesn’t change the fact that at the end of the day it is a Paykan engineered over half a century ago.

Last I checked “advanced trainer” isn’t the pressing need of the Iranian airforce.

BTW F-5 during the Iran-Iraq war had equal deaths and kills against MiG-21s. So even back then it wasn’t that formidable of a fighter. This F-5 project is just a glorified science project.

Iran will likely still pick up Yak-130s if they are available.

Until Iran acquires modern fighters and license to build them, they aren’t going to jump from F-5 to even F-18 just from tinkering around with an F-5 design.

New fighters are needed to learn and reverse engineer.

F-5 will never be able to hold its own with a less than <80KM radar when your opponent is flying with >250+KM radars!

 

[HAIDER]

Take a Paykan and add all the bells and whistles you want to. It doesn’t change the fact that at the end of the day it is a Paykan engineered over half a century ago.

Last I checked “advanced trainer” isn’t the pressing need of the Iranian airforce.

BTW F-5 during the Iran-Iraq war had equal deaths and kills against MiG-21s. So even back then it wasn’t that formidable of a fighter. This F-5 project is just a glorified science project.

Iran will likely still pick up Yak-130s if they are available.

Until Iran acquires modern fighters and license to build them, they aren’t going to jump from F-5 to even F-18 just from tinkering around with an F-5 design.

New fighters are needed to learn and reverse engineer.

F-5 will never be able to hold its own with a less than <80KM radar when your opponent is flying with >250+KM radars!

 

[Sineva]

So you just agreed that the body is the same?

Thanks for making my point.

Radar doesn’t change how the aircraft flies. A HUDs up display doesn’t change how fast the aircraft turns. So again thanks for making my point.

F-5 is at best an advanced trainer with some CAS capability. It’s radar even if upgraded will be very weak compared to the radars of F-22, SU-35, and other interceptors. The fact is the nose can only fit a small radar. Go look at other countries’ upgraded F-5’s radar stats they are not impressive. But I’m sure you will counter Iran created a revolutionary new micro radar that can detect low RCS objects.

The f5 upgrades that have been done internationally have greatly increased the all over capability of the f5,effectively they have taken a 3rd gen wvr guns and ir missile equipped light fighter and given it late 4/4.5th gen bvr capabilities,which frankly is a huge upgrade in what it could do.
Light fighters of whatever gen are always going to be at a disadvantage against heavier twin engine machines regardless of whether they are 5th gen like the f22 or 4.5 like the su35,however that doesnt mean that they are useless,far from it in fact.With the appropriate upgrades the f5 fleet could operate bvr a2a missiles like the r77 and modern wvr missiles like the r73,in addition with datalinks they would be able to make use of longer ranged radar data from the f14 and air defence radars,not to mention that many of these upgrades could also be applied across the board to the rest of irans fighter fleet which would be a literally massive force multiplier.However this would require either the indigenous development of an appropriate radar or more likely the reengineering of an existing model in irans possession like the grifo.It would also require the indigenous development of a bvr missile or acquisition of the r77/aa12 bvr missile from either the syrians or venezuelans for reengineering.So it would be a lot of work but certainly well within irans capabilities,sadly tho it seems that either the iriaf just isnt interested or perhaps is just not capable of running a program/programs of this scale.
Lastly I cant help but wonder at what the irgc-af could do if they were given some f5s to upgrade......

thailand f5 upgrades

Brazilian F-5EM with bvr derby and wvr python 4

 

[Mithridates]

lol guys you would be surprised if you know that IRIAF pilots prefer super tucano over f-5. the Northrop F-5E is a great design to be honest but nowadays it can't match any multi role fighter. there are three main factors that you have to provide in aerial warfare to achieve triumph over opponent force. 1) your planes should be better than enemy 2) your pilots should be better trained than enemy 3)you should restrict accidental events, anything should be calculated.
now with f-5 (in an aerial fight) you can only emphasis of two later factors and hope that they work for you. against a well trained air force like USAF or USNAF you can only rely of third factor (barely to be honest). you might say F-5 is a formidable dog fighter it locked on f-22 in training which is true, but the point is enemy know that too and they were the one who designed it at the first place. so they can simply don't enter a risky dogfight with that and that restricts the f-5 only to a point defense role.
now on the other hand S tucano can do all of these with less cost (f-5 fuel weight is 2 tons while tucano's is merely ~500 kg). f-5 can deliver 2.5 tons of bombs up to 250 km, tucano can do it with 1500 kg of munitions and up to 500 km. so with tucano at least you can fly with less cost and provide your ground forces better air support.
also i heard an insane thing about tucano that it's turn rate is 120 degrees per second (which is almost three times more than f-22 rate and probably is not true). but in general propeller powered planes have better turn rate than jet powered ones, like WWII era p-81 which has a turn rate equal to mig-29. in return they are low flying. my point is they have better turn rate than f-5 if you wonder.
so the description of why Iran is obsessed with f-5 in a very simple example is: all of you guys can make a chair but if you really try to make it you can notice that it was harder than what you assumed because you needed wood, nails, hammer, saw... which you didn't had before and you obtained in the processes of making chair. you didn't know and couldn't imagine that you need those stuff for making chair. the important part is when you can make chair, with that tools and experience you can make table, wooden frames and other furniture too.

 

[VEVAK]

Take a Paykan and add all the bells and whistles you want to. It doesn’t change the fact that at the end of the day it is a Paykan engineered over half a century ago.

Last I checked “advanced trainer” isn’t the pressing need of the Iranian airforce.

BTW F-5 during the Iran-Iraq war had equal deaths and kills against MiG-21s. So even back then it wasn’t that formidable of a fighter. This F-5 project is just a glorified science project.

Iran will likely still pick up Yak-130s if they are available.

Until Iran acquires modern fighters and license to build them, they aren’t going to jump from F-5 to even F-18 just from tinkering around with an F-5 design.

New fighters are needed to learn and reverse engineer.

F-5 will never be able to hold its own with a less than <80KM radar when your opponent is flying with >250+KM radars!

Wrong! Adding a digital internal nav sensor fused into a modern weapon system backed by a phased array SAR radar increases the Kowsar's real world capabilities far beyond anything standard F-5E could even dream of so despite the fact that it's same platform in terms of actual capabilities that matter the differences are like night and day so all the bells and whistles you speak of most definitely matter.

And you like mentioning the fact that the platform is a 60's era platform as if the F-15, Su-30's,.... were designed yesterday! F-15's are also a 70's era platform and yet today they remain one of the deadliest fighters in the sky's all because of all the bells and whistles that were later added.

As for the Yak-130 it would be absurd for Iran to chose that Aircraft over the Kosar especially after the very hard lessons Iran learned during the Iran-Iraq war. Especially with the Kowsar Iran now has a domestic platform that it can design various PGM's around based on our own needs and specs and that is far more valuable to Iran than any imported fighter let alone a low end CAS fighter like the Yak-130.

As for the range of the radar the F-5E's radars had a Max range of ~40km where as the Kowsar new radars at the very least have a range of 150km and F-5's or Kowsar's are CAS fighters that will mainly be operating within ~250km of their home base so they will be fed target data from the ground for better situational awareness and that will more than make up for their lack of range (comparatively) so depending on the weapons they will be carrying ~100km targeting capability would be more than sufficient to hold their own over Iranian airspace. And actually the main problems Kowsar radars will be facing compared to an AESA equipped fighter is NOT range but rather speed of detection. Today it's a matter of how fast you can go radar on, search, detect, lock, fire & hit and go radar off again... And that is again another vital upgrade Iran will have to address....

 

[TheImmortal]

Wrong! Adding a digital internal nav sensor fused into a modern weapon system backed by a phased array SAR radar increases the Kowsar's real world capabilities far beyond anything standard F-5E could even dream of so despite the fact that it's same platform in terms of actual capabilities that matter the differences are like night and day so all the bells and whistles you speak of most definitely matter.

And you like mentioning the fact that the platform is a 60's era platform as if the F-15, Su-30's,.... were designed yesterday! F-15's are also a 70's era platform and yet today they remain one of the deadliest fighters in the sky's all because of all the bells and whistles that were later added.

As for the Yak-130 it would be absurd for Iran to chose that Aircraft over the Kosar especially after the very hard lessons Iran learned during the Iran-Iraq war. Especially with the Kowsar Iran now has a domestic platform that it can design various PGM's around based on our own needs and specs and that is far more valuable to Iran than any imported fighter let alone a low end CAS fighter like the Yak-130.

As for the range of the radar the F-5E's radars had a Max range of ~40km where as the Kowsar new radars at the very least have a range of 150km and F-5's or Kowsar's are CAS fighters that will mainly be operating within ~250km of their home base so they will be fed target data from the ground for better situational awareness and that will more than make up for their lack of range (comparatively) so depending on the weapons they will be carrying ~100km targeting capability would be more than sufficient to hold their own over Iranian airspace. And actually the main problems Kowsar radars will be facing compared to an AESA equipped fighter is NOT range but rather speed of detection. Today it's a matter of how fast you can go radar on, search, detect, lock, fire & hit and go radar off again... And that is again another vital upgrade Iran will have to address....

Show me proof that Kowsar carries a 150KM Radar that is able to detect low RCS objects. Otherwise you are spreading propaganda.