Iran execution record -Shamefull

[ptldM3]

Now all semblance of an argument from you has broken down...




Yes I did watch it which is why I posted it when you asked for a source on the 98% support for the death penalty in China.

Like i stated earlier those result are either made up or the people in China are naive or ill informed about Chinese law and what constitutes executions.

No I understand you say that all judiciary systems are fallible, with a death penalty on the books, there is a possibility that innocent people executed. Your ideas aren't that complex and I left out the opinionated part about the Chinese system executing for "petty" reason.

If you understand my reasoning than why are you even talking to me? If we cut the meat and get to the bone we would see that no one in their right mind would support executions on a large scale, many of which are petty. Further, if people understood how a true and fair judicial system operated compared to say something like the system in China they further would not support executions simply because the chances of innocent people getting convicted are somewhat high. Than again perhaps I’m wrong, perhaps people in China are too naive of Chinese laws.

Just facepalm really...

Behave yourself betty, but in all seriousness, you would not want Canada to have the same system as China has, if that was the case tens of thousands of people would be executed annually.

 

[StingRoy]

Despite such large number of executions, has the crime rate gone down in China?

 

[CardSharp]

Despite such large number of executions, has the crime rate gone down in China?

Well there's not really a before death penalty figure we can refer to. I personally suspect that these death penalties are carried out because the vast majority of Chinese people want these crimes like child rape, manufacturing of toxic foods, and drug dealing to be punished as severely as possible.

A sense of justice is an important part of people trusting a legal system.

 

[desioptimist]

100% of Chinese also don't really care what your opinion of them is.

Is not that obvious, none of us in this forum matter much to people of other country. Or did you think that I was under the impression?(that Chinese care about what I think). Does not the same apply to you?

 

[StingRoy]

Well there's not really a before death penalty figure we can refer to.

Not to compare against, but a YoY figure would be help notice if crimes are indeed going down because of the capital punishment. This would mean that the punishments are working.

I personally suspect that these death penalties are carried out because the vast majority of Chinese people want these crimes like child rape, manufacturing of toxic foods, and drug dealing to be punished as severely as possible.
A sense of justice is an important part of people trusting a legal system.

Agree with you.

 

[CardSharp]

Not to compare against, but a YoY figure would be help notice if crimes are indeed going down because of the capital punishment. This would mean that the punishments are working.

Ahhh again the death penalty has been in effect since the founding of the PRC 60 odd years ago and comparing data from before is not only inapplicable, am also pretty sure the Republic of China also had the death penalty and before that the Qing dynasty also beheaded for things like corruption.

 

[CardSharp]

Not to compare against, but a YoY figure would be help notice if crimes are indeed going down because of the capital punishment. This would mean that the punishments are working.


Agree with you.

But I guess if you want some idea about what the relative crime rate is

the darker it is the more murders. Also I remember reading that China's police per-capita is much lower than that of the US.

 

[StingRoy]

Ahhh again the death penalty has been in effect since the founding of the PRC 60 odd years ago and comparing data from before is not only inapplicable, am also pretty sure the Republic of China also had the death penalty and before that the Qing dynasty also beheaded for things like corruption.

I was looking for a YoY figure in a much shorter term... like last decade or so. Basically there have been several proponents who claim that death penalty has not influenced the crime rates in any (modern) society. This is the primary reason why the capital punishments are largely avoided here in the US unless it is for an absolutely heinous crime.

 

[CardSharp]

I was looking for a YoY figure in a much shorter term... like last decade or so. Basically there have been several proponents who claim that death penalty has not influenced the crime rates in any (modern) society. This is the primary reason why the capital punishments are largely avoided here in the US unless it is for an absolutely heinous crime.

The deterrent effect of capital punishment is arguable. It may exist in some situations and it definitely doesn't exist for others (like murders, those are largely crimes of the moment)

 

[StingRoy]

The deterrent effect of capital punishment is arguable. It may exist in some situations and it definitely doesn't exist for others (like murders, those are largely crimes of the moment)

Yeah... was actually looking for some actual numbers from countries where it is widely prevalent.
Here we have something called NCADP who regularly protest against execution. Below is a link to effects of capital punishment on murder rates.
http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25

 

[CardSharp]

Yeah... was actually looking for some actual numbers from countries where it is widely prevalent.
Here we have something called NCADP who regularly protest against execution. Below is a link to effects of capital punishment on murder rates.
http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25

Yeah again I suspect the justification for the death penalty in China has less to do with deterrence than a sense of justice. If you look at the list of crimes, they are often emotional hot buttons, like manufacturing toxic foods (melamines scandal), Child rape, sexual slavery, corruption, drug dealing etc etc.


I agree about the negligible benefits of deterrence offered by the DP.

 

[below_freezing]

The death penalty may not deter crime but it indeed stops repeat criminals.

It's easy to not be executed in China. Don't smuggle drugs, don't kidnap and rape children, don't smuggle organs, don't deal in human trafficking, don't kill people with toxic food, don't steal over 10 million in government funds and don't be a serial murderer. It's not like these are crimes people can commit on purpose. Singapore has even more harsh laws, but since its a friend of the US, no one cries about its execution rate.

 

[StingRoy]

The death penalty may not deter crime but it indeed stops repeat criminals.

good one

 

[gambit]

Yeah again I suspect the justification for the death penalty in China has less to do with deterrence than a sense of justice. If you look at the list of crimes, they are often emotional hot buttons, like manufacturing toxic foods (melamines scandal), Child rape, sexual slavery, corruption, drug dealing etc etc.


I agree about the negligible benefits of deterrence offered by the DP.

That is true.

A 'sin' is not (yet) a 'crime'. A 'sin' is something that the moral sensibilities frowns upon. A lie is frowned upon, but not if the lie is under oath, called 'perjury' for example, so we decided to make that lie a 'crime', which is punishable if exposed. When a person swore upon something sacred, like in front of God or upon the society's good name itself, that he did so and so as truthful, he expects the rest of us to accept that declaration as unimpeachable. So if that declaration turns out to be false, our sense of moral outrage demands that we exact retribution for taking our trust for granted. We then demand that such a deed be 'criminal', meaning we must punish the offender under a law specifically for that situation -- lying under oath.

The greater the severity of the penalty, the greater the shift from deterrence towards justice and that shift is from the greater the sense of moral outrage when the people is confronted with the 'sin', be it for 'murder' or 'rape' or 'adultery'.

 

[CardSharp]

That is true.

A 'sin' is not (yet) a 'crime'. A 'sin' is something that the moral sensibilities frowns upon. A lie is frowned upon, but not if the lie is under oath, called 'perjury' for example, so we decided to make that lie a 'crime', which is punishable if exposed. When a person swore upon something sacred, like in front of God or upon the society's good name itself, that he did so and so as truthful, he expects the rest of us to accept that declaration as unimpeachable. So if that declaration turns out to be false, our sense of moral outrage demands that we exact retribution for taking our trust for granted. We then demand that such a deed be 'criminal', meaning we must punish the offender under a law specifically for that situation -- lying under oath.

The greater the severity of the penalty, the greater the shift from deterrence towards justice and that shift is from the greater the sense of moral outrage when the people is confronted with the 'sin', be it for 'murder' or 'rape' or 'adultery'.

And there we have the rudimentary roots of all law. A countries legal code is an imperfect reflection of that country's moral values and a sense of what is right is often what keeps a country together as an entity.