INS Vikrant, being built by Cochin Shipyard, to be ready by 2018:Pics

[IND151]

You also have to consider they may not have a ready made option for Mig 29K to appear in the rendering. F 15 OTOH will be easily available as a template.

Sometimes we miss the obvious reasons.

The world is full of obvious things which no one cares to observe.

 

[Koovie]

LOL. Here comes another with generic "gyaan".

SHOW me where bad infrastructure was responsible for High cost of AC-1. Provide the link. Show me how bureaucracy resulted in rise in cost.

I am not interested in your "expert opinions", provide FACTS.

And here comes the next semi educated moron who thinks in the typical black or white way.
Problems like this are down to many factors, hardly to just one.

I mean seriously? You ask how bad infrastructure affects the costs of mammoth projects like this one?
You think cost escalation is down to just one factor?

Its not so hard to think about it: If the delivery of production material is delayed (May it be because of bad infrastructure or unnecessary bureaucracy), dont you think that its going to affect the production costs?

Why do you think is good infrastructure important for the economy? To show off with shiny new roads?


Its not my job to educate you if you are not capable of doing it for yourself, or the people responsible for it failed so hard.


Learn to use your own brain next time.

 

[uparyupari]

And here comes the next semi educated moron who thinks in the typical black or white way.
Problems like this are down to many factors, hardly to just one.

I mean seriously? You ask how bad infrastructure affects the costs of mammoth projects like this one?
You think cost escalation is down to just one factor?

Its not so hard to think about it: If the delivery of production material is delayed (May it be because of bad infrastructure or unnecessary bureaucracy), dont you think that its going to affect the production costs?

Why do you think is good infrastructure important for the economy? To show off with shiny new roads?
Its not my job to educate you if you are not capable of doing it for yourself, or the people responsible for it failed so hard.
Learn to use your own brain next time.

LOL. In short you have nothing except what you pull out of your @ss and general Rant. Stop wasting our time by insisting on sharing your ignorance.

 

[Koovie]

LOL. In short you have nothing except what you pull out of your @ss and general Rant. Stop wasting our time by insisting on sharing your ignorance.

Who is "our" here?
And talking about ignorance:
Just answer the question if you can: How is bad infrastructure not related to rising costs in production?

 

[uparyupari]

Who is "our" here?
And talking about ignorance:
Just answer the question if you can: How is bad infrastructure not related to rising costs in production?

"our" is all those reading this thread who has to suffer your ignorance.

You are required to defend your stupidity, not me.

 

[Manindra]

LOL. Here comes another with generic "gyaan".

SHOW me where bad infrastructure was responsible for High cost of AC-1. Provide the link. Show me how bureaucracy resulted in rise in cost.

I am not interested in your "expert opinions", provide FACTS.

First they didn't get warship grade steel from Russia so SAIL-DRDO develop them self.
Second ELCON Engineering built gearbox truck meet a accident so few month delay in this.
I am not counting small complications & delay in this.

 

[Koovie]

"our" is all those reading this thread who has to suffer your ignorance.

You are required to defend your stupidity, not me.

Just answer the question if you can: How is bad infrastructure not related to rising costs in production?

 

[Abingdonboy]

LOL. Here comes another with generic "gyaan".

SHOW me where bad infrastructure was responsible for High cost of AC-1. Provide the link. Show me how bureaucracy resulted in rise in cost.

I am not interested in your "expert opinions", provide FACTS.

It is a combination of factors why the the QEC is cheaper (per ton):
1) An established high-technology ship building sector in the UK who follow industry best practices (India is only now getting this- they only just adopted modular construction )
2) Past experience in ACC construction, this simply can't be quantified but given the UK has been churning out ACCs since the 40s counts for a LOT, they have the requisite infrastructure, skilled labour force and project management experience to draw upon, India had pretty much none of this vis a vis building an ACC.
3) The QE class consists of two ships- this will keep the costs lower undoubtably as the R&D costs will be spread across two hulls


Combined with issues with the IAC-1:
1) Delays in sourcing hugh-grade steel (now been addressed in house by SAIL for all warships)
2) A road crash in 2008 (IIRC that's the date) that led to writing off a bespoke gearbox for the IAC-1 led to at least a 18 month delay because a new one had to be ordered and delivered (addressed by the rise of professional logistics firms in India and improvement in roads in the past decade or so)
3) A first of a kind project is ALWAYS going to take longer than any follow-on projects, look at the P-15A- almost a decade to enter service, now the P-15B will only take 60 months (comparable to industry standards for a destroyer of this displacement and lethality) or the P-17- it took 7/8 years for the Shivlaiks, the P-17As will take 55 months to construct each (again very respectable by industry standards) and on top of that are to be constructed in two shipyards simultaneously meaning the IN will be inducted 2 of these a year once deliveries begin.


It's a steep learning curve but by the end of this decade (so by 2020) India will be able to compete with anyone in this arena.

 

[uparyupari]

First they didn't get warship grade steel from Russia so SAIL-DRDO develop them self.
Second ELCON Engineering built gearbox truck meet a accident so few month delay in this.
I am not counting small complications & delay in this.

Both are good points, but is unlikely to cause a billion $ delay.

INS Vikrant used DMR 249A for the hull and body; and DMR 249B, a more resilient steel, which is used for the flight deck.

Both supplied by SAIL. However one of the reason for the delay was the inability of the Russians to supply them on time.

 

[Manindra]

Both are good points, but is unlikely to cause a billion $ delay.

That is true. INS Vikrant used DMR 249A for the hull and body; and DMR 249B, a more resilient steel, which is used for the flight deck.

Both supplied by SAIL. However one of the reason for the delay was the inability of the Russians to supply them on time.

It cost us billion Rupees , same case with gearbox e& rest are non experience , technical & design complications etc.

 

[uparyupari]

It cost us billion Rupees , same case with gearbox e& rest are non experience , technical & design complications etc.

That is just guess work and a excuse for the unreasonable cost.

 

[Manindra]

That is just guess work and a excuse for the unreasonable cost.

Did you have manage any big program ?
If yes, didn't you find your first time their are many cost & time slippage comparable to your planned schedule ?

 

[uparyupari]

It is a combination of factors why the the QEC is cheaper (per ton):
1) An established high-technology ship building sector in the UK who follow industry best practices (India is only now getting this- they only just adopted modular construction )
2) Past experience in ACC construction, this simply can't be quantified but given the UK has been churning out ACCs since the 40s counts for a LOT, they have the requisite infrastructure, skilled labour force and project management experience to draw upon, India had pretty much none of this vis a vis building an ACC.
3) The QE class consists of two ships- this will keep the costs lower undoubtably as the R&D costs will be spread across two hulls

1. Modular constructions was used in IAC-1, so that point is invalid.
2. Lack of experience was/should have been factored into the initial cost so that cannot be an excuse for the spiralling of cost to unreasonable levels.
3. R&D cost is not the reason since the 19000 crores was sanctioned after the R&D was complete. When the hull was almost ready.

Combined with issues with the IAC-1:
1) Delays in sourcing hugh-grade steel (now been addressed in house by SAIL for all warships)
2) A road crash in 2008 (IIRC that's the date) that led to writing off a bespoke gearbox for the IAC-1 led to at least a 18 month delay because a new one had to be ordered and delivered (addressed by the rise of professional logistics firms in India and improvement in roads in the past decade or so)
3) A first of a kind project is ALWAYS going to take longer than any follow-on projects, look at the P-15A- almost a decade to enter service, now the P-15B will only take 60 months (comparable to industry standards for a destroyer of this displacement and lethality) or the P-17- it took 7/8 years for the Shivlaiks, the P-17As will take 55 months to construct each (again very respectable by industry standards) and on top of that are to be constructed in two shipyards simultaneously meaning the IN will be inducted 2 of these a year once deliveries begin.

It's a steep learning curve but by the end of this decade (so by 2020) India will be able to compete with anyone in this arena.

That is just poor project planing and not doing due diligence. But those were the real reasons for the delay and rise in cost to some extend.

Did you have manage any big program ?
If yes, didn't you find your first time their are many cost & time slippage comparable to your planned schedule ?

I am a professional Program manager so I know what I am talking about. You can have a 5 to 10% slippage in the project. Not a 1500% cost escalation.

 

[Manindra]

1. Modular constructions was used in IAC-1, so that point is invalid.
2. Lack of experience was/should have been factored into the initial cost so that cannot be an excuse for the spiralling of cost to unreasonable levels.
3. R&D cost is not the reason since the 19000 crores was sanctioned after the R&D was complete. When the hull was almost ready.



That is just poor project planing and not doing due diligence. But those were the real reasons for the delay and rise in cost to some extend.



I am a professional Program manager so I know what I am talking about. You can have a 5 to 10% slippage in the project. Not a 1500% cost escalation.

I agree it is delay due to not effective management but you total rubbish fact for many fold cost delay is not right.
Check F-35 program where top defence contractors whith lot of experience in steal are struggling & many fold cost increase.
Even a modular construction method used in first time.
But IAC -2 would not be much delayed if nuclear reactor & EMALS get solved.
Check MDL performance in Kolkata class & Vishakhapatnam class destroyers.
INS KOLKATA(D63) Laid 27 September 2003 Launched 30 March 2006 Commissioned 16 August 2014
INS Vishakhapatnam (D66) INS Visakhapatnam D 66 laid --12 October 2013 Launch--20 April 2015 Induction: 2018 (expected)

 

[uparyupari]

I agree it is delay due to not effective management but you total rubbish fact for many fold cost delay is not right.
Check F-35 program where top defence contractors whith lot of experience in steal are struggling & many fold cost increase.
Even a modular construction method used in first time.
But IAC -2 would not be much delayed if nuclear reactor & EMALS get solved.
Check MDL performance in Kolkata class & Vishakhapatnam class destroyers.
INS KOLKATA(D63) Laid 27 September 2003 Launched 30 March 2006 Commissioned 16 August 2014
INS Vishakhapatnam (D66) INS Visakhapatnam D 66 laid --12 October 2013 Launch--20 April 2015 Induction: 2018 (expected)

IAC-2 not getting delayed is just wishful thinking and speculation. Facts speak otherwise.

There has to be a reasonable assessment and a realistic projection. We were quick to blame the Russians when INS Vikramaditya went bad, but we are strangely silent when INS Vikrant had a worse show.

There has been a pretty serious foul up from the keel laying to the commissioning. And unless we do a fact finding and learn from the mistakes, we are doomed to replete it forever