Indonesia eyes Eurofighters to check China’s threat

[Reashot Xigwin]

For BVR Engagements, F-16V ROC only can buy AIM-120D with 150km range. Meanwhile, Chinese J-10C can use PL-15 Missile with more than 300km range


I wonder with his logic..
How can WW2 Submarine and Cold war era Destroyer, threaten Chinese Navy?

Yes, ROCN still have a Chance if fighting Navy from South east asia countries. But against PLAN, they have no chance at all.

Viper have an advanced EW suite. It's no longer who have the longer stick it's who have the better plane.

 

[IblinI]

stick to the topic, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, why do you guys even bothered to convince someone, does it matter?

 

[antonius123]

How do you suppose you bring your toys if you keep getting shot at by the Taiwanese?

Nobody gonna call him out for making assertions without proof?

The problem is you are asserting things and make assumption from ignorance.

They wont bring troops and tanks before they destroy Taiwan defense system in the first place, period.

How can you be so sure that Taiwan can shoot all J-20 and DF-21/26 fired by China toward Taiwan's military bases at the first places?

Fun fact the Viper are also LO plane & if it's avionics the vipers already more advanced than what J-10C are currently carrying.

https://www.lockeedmartin.com/en-us...-technologically-advanced-4th-generation.html

So yeah I'm gonna say the viper won hands down.

Where do you read there that Viper's avionics is more advanced than what J-10C currently carrying?
LOL.... another daydreaming asserting things from ignorance

For sure none of AAM that Viper bring can match PL-15 that could reach target within 300km, this is the big determinant factor in BVR if you are not stealth. And TVC play great role in WVR, evidenced by how many J-11 can outmaneuver Grippen during exercise in Thailand.

 

[antonius123]

Viper have an advanced EW suite. It's no longer who have the longer stick it's who have the better plane.

Agree ... but latest AAM like PL-15 has high no escape zone ...so you'd better ensure you are not getting locked from 300km away

 

[Daniel808]

Agree ... but latest AAM like PL-15 has high no escape zone ...so you'd better ensure you are not getting locked from 300km away

PL-15 Missile with 300km+ Range

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Fun fact the Viper are also LO plane & if it's avionics the vipers already more advanced than what J-10C are currently carrying.

Any plane with weapons exclusively mounted on external hardpoints cannot be LO. Uncontrolled reflections from munitions guarantee that they will light up on radar. They quote "LO" for clean configuration, but if you're flying unarmed, you might as well not be flying at all.

F-22, F-35 and J-20 don't have internal weapon bays for fun or to look cool, its because external weapons light you up on radar.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

The problem is you are asserting things and make assumption from ignorance.

They wont bring troops and tanks before they destroy Taiwan defense system in the first place, period.

How can you be so sure that Taiwan can shoot all J-20 and DF-21/26 fired by China toward Taiwan's military bases at the first places?



Where do you read there that Viper's avionics is more advanced than what J-10C currently carrying?
LOL.... another daydreaming asserting things from ignorance

For sure none of AAM that Viper bring can match PL-15 that could reach target within 300km, this is the big determinant factor in BVR if you are not stealth. And TVC play great role in WVR, evidenced by how many J-11 can outmaneuver Grippen during exercise in Thailand.

Which still be a tall order to do. Taiwan is an island btw. You are falsely making assumption that naval landing are just dropping dudes from a boat. There's also US submarines there patrolling & will be called out to defend Taiwan from oncoming invasion.

Even if by some miracle china managed to land china are still predicted to lose 10k from the initial invasion.

Taiwan again doesn't even need to directly engage Chinese forces in order to win they just need to wait out for reinforcement.

You should be asking what makes china think what they have is better than the SABR radar. The SABR have the range of over 300km double even triple than most Chinese radar.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ch-troubles-facing-chinas-j-10-fighter-120151

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Any plane with weapons exclusively mounted on external hardpoints cannot be LO. Uncontrolled reflections from munitions guarantee that they will light up on radar. They quote "LO" for clean configuration, but if you're flying unarmed, you might as well not be flying at all.

F-22, F-35 and J-20 don't have internal weapon bays for fun or to look cool, its because external weapons light you up on radar.

LO is a wide definition. "Semi-Stealth' are in the LO category. The exterior of the F-16V especially are covered with specialized coating to make it harder to detect on radar don't know what the J-10 are packing but that what constitutes an LO. You thinking of VLO (Very Low Observation)

 

[antonius123]

Which still be a tall order to do. Taiwan is an island btw. You are falsely making assumption that naval landing are just dropping dudes from a boat. There's also US submarines there patrolling & will be called out to defend Taiwan from oncoming invasion.

Where did I state that?

First, we are talking about China invade Taiwan alone without US back. But even if US intervene, it is not as easy as you said for US sub to patrol in the strait without getting conflicting with China numerous subs and anti subs system.

Even if by some miracle china managed to land china are still predicted to lose 10k from the initial invasion.

Why miracle?

It is very quite possible for China to land her troops in Taiwan though not that easy.

Taiwan again doesn't even need to directly engage Chinese forces in order to win they just need to wait out for reinforcement.

I still dont understand how you assume Taiwan will win?

You should be asking what makes china think what they have is better than the SABR radar. The SABR have the range of over 300km double even triple than most Chinese radar.

I dont know yet the specification of J-10C AESA radar.
But it is safe to assume that if China equip J-10C with PL-15, the radar installed on J-10C should be able to support PL-15, including the radar range. Even if J-10C radar range much below 300km still the pilot can launch PL-15 first rather than Viper's pilot can do with his amraam.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ch-troubles-facing-chinas-j-10-fighter-120151

LOL. I am talking about J-10C, not J-10A

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

LO is a wide definition. "Semi-Stealth' are in the LO category. The exterior of the F-16V especially are covered with specialized coating to make it harder to detect on radar don't know what the J-10 are packing but that what constitutes an LO. You thinking of VLO (Very Low Observation)

that doesn't matter. there's only 2 ways to reduce radar returns:

1. minimize number of surfaces that produce specular reflections.
2. maximize RF absorbance

Any externally mounted weapon is a new surface that produces specular reflections of radar signals. The weapons are not stealthy, thus the entire plane is not stealthy when it mounts them. In addition, the RCS increase is more than the simple addition of the weapon RCS + plane RCS since the interaction of the plane and the weapon results in new, unpredictable reflections.

 

[antonius123]

J-20 are intercept plane it's. You might be thinking about J-31 which still not in the PLAAF inventory.

It could shoot down viper from 300km away while staying in stealth mode.

J-20B is with TVC, for sure it is air dominance fighter as well

 

[gambit]

\First, we are talking about China invade Taiwan alone without US back. But even if US intervene, it is not as easy as you said for US sub to patrol in the strait without getting conflicting with China numerous subs and anti subs system.

It is very quite possible for China to land her troops in Taiwan though not that easy.

The US do not need to be in the strait to protect Taiwan from an invasion.

Outside of the winter months, China have at best a %20 chance window of an invasion. Since I mentioned the winter months, it implied weather as THE dominant factor, and since weather is neutral, as in no one controls the weather, this mean both China and Taiwan know at least down to the week, if not the day, of when an invasion is feasible inside that narrow %20 window. This mean the element of surprise was never there, and when you cannot surprise your opponent, the difficulty of combat doubled and correspondingly the odds of victory drops by 1/2.

In what ways does surprise matter so much? If your opponent is asleep, for example. If he was asleep, his senses are dulled, his reaction capability diminished, and most likely he is unarmed. Another example is the Battle of Midway when US fighters caught the Japanese while they were changing ordnance from torpedoes to bombs.

For China, there is no element of surprise for an invasion of Taiwan, and if Taiwan can prevent an invasion, Taiwan win. But prevention is not the worst. If China launch the invasion fleet and somehow, with or without US help, Taiwan inflicted so much damages on the invasion fleet that China have to abort, that WILL be seen as a victory over the PLA and it will reverb all over the world. The abort will be both a military defeat and a huge loss of face for China. Sympathy will pour in for Taiwan and the odds of independence could cross the %50 threshold.

I doubt you have any idea of how difficult is that -- 'not that easy'.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

It could shoot down viper from 300km away while staying in stealth mode.

J-20B is with TVC, for sure it is air dominance fighter as well

The Viper fighter is equipped with upgraded electronic warfare equipment and modern threat warning systems, including jammers, threat warning receivers, electronic countermeasures equipment pods, as well as chaff and infrared flare dispensers to defend the most dangerous threats in complex battlefield scenarios.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16v-viper-fighting-falcon-multi-role-fighter/

 

[antonius123]

The Viper fighter is equipped with upgraded electronic warfare equipment and modern threat warning systems, including jammers, threat warning receivers, electronic countermeasures equipment pods, as well as chaff and infrared flare dispensers to defend the most dangerous threats in complex battlefield scenarios.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16v-viper-fighting-falcon-multi-role-fighter/

Sorry, those jammers and ECM will be useless against AESA's in J-20, J-10C, J-16, and PL-15.

The missile features an active electronically scanned array radar,[4] and has a range exceeding 200 km – comparable to that of the Russian R-37 missile. It is 4 meters long and incorporates a dual-thrust rocket motor, capable of a speed of Mach 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-15

 

[antonius123]

The US do not need to be in the strait to protect Taiwan from an invasion.

Outside of the winter months, China have at best a %20 chance window of an invasion. Since I mentioned the winter months, it implied weather as THE dominant factor, and since weather is neutral, as in no one controls the weather, this mean both China and Taiwan know at least down to the week, if not the day, of when an invasion is feasible inside that narrow %20 window. This mean the element of surprise was never there, and when you cannot surprise your opponent, the difficulty of combat doubled and correspondingly the odds of victory drops by 1/2.

In what ways does surprise matter so much? If your opponent is asleep, for example. If he was asleep, his senses are dulled, his reaction capability diminished, and most likely he is unarmed. Another example is the Battle of Midway when US fighters caught the Japanese while they were changing ordnance from torpedoes to bombs.

For China, there is no element of surprise for an invasion of Taiwan, and if Taiwan can prevent an invasion, Taiwan win. But prevention is not the worst. If China launch the invasion fleet and somehow, with or without US help, Taiwan inflicted so much damages on the invasion fleet that China have to abort, that WILL be seen as a victory over the PLA and it will reverb all over the world. The abort will be both a military defeat and a huge loss of face for China. Sympathy will pour in for Taiwan and the odds of independence could cross the %50 threshold.

I doubt you have any idea of how difficult is that -- 'not that easy'.

If ..... Taiwan really could prevent China invasion.

The question is .. : how Taiwan could prevent China invasion, while their airbase and other military bases have been crushed by DF-21/DF-26/DH-10/etc? and all their war ship sunk into sea by PLAN's destroyers/subs/ASM?