India's Tejas and China's Xiaolong fighters compared

[cerberus]

I would rather stay quite on that. Dont want two countrymen to get into verbal fight on an issue which may not be worthy than relationships.

Gentleman Always Stay Low, Eagerness and Anxiety in a Person to Prove his Point is a Proof that He is Defending the in Defensible.
Hve good Day
Cerberus

 

[shah1398]

Gentleman Always Stay Low, Eagerness and Anxiety in a Person to Prove his Point is a Proof that He is Defending the in Defensible.
Hve good Day
Cerberus

Quote of the day

 

[Indian Patriot]

Woooah Bro.... hold on.You are a rare realistic person i have ever come across.I totally second to what you said about MKIs and Rafale and would bow out humbly on saying anything about LCA as respect for your realistic approach. I can see you would have made so many enemies back Home.

Never mind what I said. LCA has space age technology and is a better aircraft than EF-Typhoon, Rafale and Grippen. Air force pilots are supposed to fly mid air and compare technical aspects so LCA is better than USAF 4th gen aircraft as well.

And since wars are fought on pre-decided rule it is a gentleman's agreement that only JF-17 will face the LCA. If a PAF F-16 Blkk 52 attacks India the LCA will not be flown or if a F-16 does encounter a LCA then due to gentleman's agreement the F-16 will turn around and instead radio a JF-17 to fight the LCA. And since PLAAF does not have anything of JF-17 equivalent then it is agreed that PLAAF fighters like their Su-27 won't engage LCA.

P.S. - Don't ask what will happen if JF-17 turns out to be equal or superior to LCA.

As I said, don't mind my comments on LCA. The emotional keyboard warriors on PDF know more about aircraft and the LCA than the pilots and chiefs of Indian Air Force who are still not sure of inducting the aircraft. It is said that in case of contingencies some IAF personnel consult the Indian keyboard warriors on technical matters.

 

[kṣamā]

ok first of all there are too many trolls on this thread.

• To compare the two aircraft without seeing their use is sheer idiocy. The JF-17 is always going to be to defend Pakistani airspace and is not meant as a plane that will cross the border into enemy space for extended missions. The LCA will have to be part of a larger Indian air force entering into Pakistani airspace and facing not only resistance from other air planes but air defences.
• The LCA is not suited for the purpose it was built for, because if it was policing the airspace it has composite materials which are expensive to use and later maintain. And at the money already thrown into this project it would have been better to induct more variants of Su-30.
• If it is air supremacy it is not suited because it does not have any advanced measures to protect against air to air missiles or SAMs.
• Also this is off topic, but India has to stop counting its entire air force in it's comparison with Pakistan because it will never leave its border with China without air protection. Also counting Mig 21 as a weapon is not really a smart move. It is like us counting our F-7s.

Well Sir Tejas was meant to be a Point Defense fighter and not a Front end. It can also be included in air policing. One thing to consider is no modern airforce is gonna send just one fighter or one type of fighter for any kind of operation. May it be just air policing or SEAD/DEAD mission. Tejas will be accompanying by his big brothers. And everyone will play their strongest card. The cost of putting a twin engine behemoth in air for petty task is too large and there Tejas comes in. It's easy to overhaul and after all it's "Ghar ka maal". We can mod the hell out of it, even a full body overhaul will cost less than removing a ding on those firang birds. And for Mig 21 and F7s, Those are weapons no matter what. Even in this age of NLOS Cannon , a Molotov Cocktail down the commanders hatch will "Severely affect the war-fighting ability ". Remember I am not saying that Molotov Cocktail is the best weapon, but when used strategically it can punch way above it's weight. MIGs and F7s won't be heading for F16s and MIG29s head on, they won't even survive the initial salvo. But sneak attack using heavy ECM cover/Using Heavy EW during a meager will cause massive chaos and loss associated with it.

Also Do you want us to pitch 1/2 of IAF against PAF ?? Maybe even 1/3rd, If Shri Lanka opens a front !! How about 1/4th Bangladesh are your long lost brothers they surely will open a front !! How about Turkey and KSA ?? Why leave North Korea behind, let them also help you. Would you like to include more ?? Will all these take the conventional superiority to a manageable level ?? No trolling intended but this was to make a point clear that when the chips are down no option will be left un-explored from the both side. So the worst case can be full force clash between us. Though the possibility of that happening is extremely low. Also pls do take qualitative advantage into the picture.

missiles do not care which jet they leave, they only know which jet they have to take out.

As for the this part, I dunn think it's that simple. A few veterinarians can tell us how it's actually done and how difficult it is.

Also, let me make my stand clear. LCA is not gr8 in its current form and will require few debugging to get it right. But that dose not take from the fact that it has our engineers working on it, in our country. The knowledge produced by this project is not going waste by any streach of imagination.

To explain it a lay man, first when you start cooking all by yourself, you will take longer and end with half baked product at higher price than what a trained cook could have. But when you ask a trained cook to partner up while cooking (think of it as you and your mom/ammi/mummy/ma cooking together), the trained cook will share some basics like how to hold the knife, how big the slice of meat should be and so on, but the knowledge she learned by experience will not be shared (not like she dose not want to but like she cannot put it into words, like when to reduce the heat etc). This way you get YOUR food made faster, tastier and cheap but at the end of the day, if you like another plate of the delicacy you will have ask her to make another for you. [The eg is highly affected by recent Mother's Day]

The above maybe a very very watered down version what happens in a JV and in house development but it gives us an perspective. If someone wants I can give with much more appropriate real world scene from my work place.

 

[ziaulislam]

@ziaulislam @Dazzler @shah1398
Well, in other threads relating to this CAG report, I have had asked the Pakistani commentators "You have quoted our CAG report?" that's nice. CAG controls our nation(it is an independent organization like judiciary) regarding all the monetary transaction, whether any Govt. use the money properly or not. Remember our Coal scam or 2G scam. The present Govt. has made lot of money from the CAG report (by auctioning).

I want to ask Pakistani commentators as to if there is any CAG like institutions in Pakistan or whatever the Army says becomes its Bible?? If there would have been no CAG, then you would not have any chance to comment on this!!

Pakistan also has Auditor General of Pakistan a similar institute to CAG. there was a very controversial finding in its report on some defense procurements so recently since 1990s it has been pretty much free . but agin auditor see the data its given so if the army is happy with something the auditor is obviously happy if there are no clear cut embezzlements. you will find corruption charges nearly every year in any auditor of developing countries including pakistan

Rs5.5 billion foul play in defence funds

Auditors find massive irregularities in defence spending - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

then there is NAB(national accountability bureau) for corruption and FIA(fedral intelligence agency) as intelligence agency for federal government

problem with LCA is simple; IAF doesnt want it, otherwise its an good aircraft in its own design limitation

IAF doesnt want it because its not upto the threat environment of the region especially china with its coming j-10s and su -27s

 

[shah1398]

Pakistan also has Auditor General of Pakistan a similar institute to CAG. there was a very controversial finding in its report on some defense procurements so recently since 1990s it has been pretty much free . but agin auditor see the data its given so if the army is happy with something the auditor is obviously happy if there are no clear cut embezzlements. you will find corruption charges nearly every year in any auditor of developing countries including pakistan

Rs5.5 billion foul play in defence funds

Auditors find massive irregularities in defence spending - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

then there is NAB(national accountability bureau) for corruption and FIA(fedral intelligence agency) as intelligence agency for federal government

problem with LCA is simple; IAF doesnt want it, otherwise its an good aircraft in its own design limitation

IAF doesnt want it because its not upto the threat environment of the region especially china with its coming j-10s and su -27s

Actually the the question was if there is any organisation in Pakistan which oversees the projects related to defense that if they are proceeding following the timeline and are as per ASR. Financial accountability was not a point of discussion there.

 

[deckingraj]

I have removed most of the content as you are simply very angry with emotional key board warriors

And since wars are fought on pre-decided rule it is a gentleman's agreement that only JF-17 will face the LCA.

Just couple of questions....Let's assume an air war breaks out today....do you think Mig21 will play any role in that war or not?? Also when PAF took in JF-17 how good was that fighter jet as compared to some top notch fighters in our arsenal?? Given you are not an emotional key board warrior i am sure you will give us an honest and candid opinion on this.

problem with LCA is simple; IAF doesnt want it, otherwise its an good aircraft in its own design limitation
IAF doesnt want it because its not upto the threat environment of the region especially china with its coming j-10s and su -27s

You may be right...however what we need to understand here is that all the fighter manufacturing countries have gone through this phase....I think nobody will argue that we should reduce our imports and fulfill our orders with desi mall...as long as they are good...now here come's the catch 22...for a product as complex as fighter jet it is too steep a task for a country to design and build one which is among the best in the world...because this is an ongoing task...Figter jets are inducted in forces....doctrines are established on them which brings in obvious flaws in them and then those flaws rectified with new one's to be found by your air-forces...the cycle continues and finally you have a product which is best of best in the world...If India ever wants to produce its own fighters for her forces then success of Tejas is paramount...no??

 

[khail007]

Here we are just supporting the products based on on-hand info. In other words text book comparison.
If all here are interested for real encounters to support their products then pray for that, time will tell.

 

[deckingraj]

Here we are just supporting the products based on on-hand info. In other words text book comparison.
If all here are interested for real encounters to support their products then pray for that, time will tell.

What else is available for us apart from that...also comparisons are always subjective especially in fighter jets as there are plethora of reasons which can impact the outcome..for example even a fighter jet taking down another can't prove that former is mightier than later....still d1ck measuring is a good time pass..

 

[khail007]

What else is available for us apart from that...also comparisons are always subjective especially in fighter jets as there are plethora of reasons which can impact the outcome..for example even a fighter jet taking down another can't prove that former is mightier than later....still d1ck measuring is a good time pass..

Right...good for time consumption but endless...keep on.

 

[Indian Patriot]

I have removed most of the content as you are simply very angry with emotional key board warriors

Thank you. In my age I feel less than patient with pre-teen warriors who believe they are doing their country a great service by trolling on the internet.

Just couple of questions....Let's assume an air war breaks out today....do you think Mig21 will play any role in that war or not??

Technically yes, the Mig-21s will have to play a role because they are in the active service. Just how effective their presence will be in the air war is open for debate.

Look bro, you so far sound like a rational being so let me ask you. What was the record of IAF Mig-21s in previous wars? I am not asking you about the capability of IAF so please don't talk about MKI and stuff. Just elaborate on the role of Mig-21, their war record and how effective do you think the Migs will be against modern 4/4.5 gen aircraft.

Also when PAF took in JF-17 how good was that fighter jet as compared to some top notch fighters in our arsenal??

Why are you comparing with PAF?

India is the bigger country with a bigger economy and as a result the IAF has superior numbers. Agree? Now if you are PAF air marshal what will you do to negate IAF advantage? Because of financial crunch you cannot afford an entire fleet of F-16 Blk 52. At most you have like 70 odd F-16s and for arguments sake let's assume they are all Blk 52. What else does PAF have?

Like IAF the PAF also have vintage and obsolete aircraft. The Fantan F-7 and Mirage ROSE upgrades are the mainstay of the PAF. The F-16 is the superstar in PAF inventory but they barely make 15% of their fighting force. PAF does not have money to buy squadrons of Typhoon and such aircraft. But at the same time they need to replace ageing aircraft with new ones and hence the JF-17.

Agree the JF-17 is no match for MKI. But what about the Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27 class of aircraft still flown? Jaguar is a good jet but it is a primarily strike aircraft for air-to-ground operations not air-toair so even Jags will feel vulnerable.. The PAF has no option but to go for JF-17/FC-1. What is India's pressing compulsion to go for LCA other than national ego?

And I am not even talking about the PLAAF. They are in a different league.

Given you are not an emotional key board warrior i am sure you will give us an honest and candid opinion on this.

I have.

It is naive to expect PAF will send JF-17 to fight LCA while reserving their falcons to fight MKI. Unfortunately wars are not fought that way. Refer to 1965 air war, a surprise air attack nearly took out bulk of IAF.

So tell me, what is the IAF/LCA supposed to do when the falcons attack India? ARe they supposed to take to the skies and fight, and get shot down or are they supposed to sit inside the hangars waiting until the PAF sends in JF-17?

And what about PLAAF? They have like 2000 fighters compared to India's 700 and they have far more Sukhoi 27/variants than the IAF. And almost forgot, they have the Mig-29s as well.

How long will LCA last against a PLAAF air war? PLAAF does not even have a single FC-1 so the ego bubble is not valid here. What is LCA supposed to do if in any case China attacks?

 

[ziaulislam]

You may be right...however what we need to understand here is that all the fighter manufacturing countries have gone through this phase....I think nobody will argue that we should reduce our imports and fulfill our orders with desi mall...as long as they are good...now here come's the catch 22...for a product as complex as fighter jet it is too steep a task for a country to design and build one which is among the best in the world...because this is an ongoing task...Figter jets are inducted in forces....doctrines are established on them which brings in obvious flaws in them and then those flaws rectified with new one's to be found by your air-forces...the cycle continues and finally you have a product which is best of best in the world...If India ever wants to produce its own fighters for her forces then success of Tejas is paramount...no??

well india was lucky, apart from hiccup in late 90s , it had an option of co development and it went for it where india knew she cant do it for example the flight control and some systems. i think when it comes OPTIONS in development of LCA nothing went terribly wrong unlike countries like china where she had the problem of lack of support from outside. india never had the problem. if LCA is a failure its due to clear cut mistakes by planners and lack of co ordination btween IAF and DRDO. i dont think the excuse that most countries go through it works here.
Yes it would have been a valid point had india been under sanctions like china is. india has no problem in completing LCA, it can get an engine, radar anytime from anywhere it want, so why wasnt it done back in mid 2000s. DRDO insisted that kaveri is good while IAF didnt want it.

the fault lies in lack of ordination between IAF and DRDO; both working against each other rather than together as both have different interests than a common interest

 

[s.k]

Comparing on just info ? Send 2 tejas we will send 1jf thunder bytheway does tejas fly ?

 

[HariPrasad]

Do not cry. Your crying is not going to make any difference as this is accepted by china itself. Which aircraft is better.

i am answering to your that statement that you called your junk LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT is your INDIGENOUS product, why don't you guys accept thos fact your junk LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT is'nt your INDIGENOUS product, its a copy and paste thing and put the name of yours, huh hard to digest

LOL!! Very soon you will have some emotional keyboard enthusiasts coming here and claiming how good the LCA is, how modern it is and how it is a better aircraft than F-16 etc etc etc.

It has not come in 27 page. you can wait and check the forum 24*7 in the exceptionthose comment to that you can troll and bluff.

I have no problem with tejas I think its an excellent aircraft, your CAG and IAF has the problem with it!!
Just to update u CAG says its overweight,less fuel, radar wasn't developed, electronics warfare not efficient and in total 53 problems. in addition it has been very slow causing problems and cost over runs in updating older equipment /other aircrafts

What they have said is truth. I just want to say that these problem does not make it inefficient. for example we could not develop Kaveri and used F 404. Has it make tejas less efficient? No. Infact we are using best in class engine. same is true for radar and other stuff it quoited. Infact this is the standard way to develop any product. When you need 5 parts, it is always better to buy it than develop it as they can be very costly. You it is true that we were slow and we miss-managed the project but ultimately we developed a very good platform and most important of all is that we developed the whole infrastructure where we can design and develop our hi tech aircrafts.

 

[deckingraj]

Now you are being too harsh on DRDO...Mind it i am sick of them as well however don't want to go overboard in criticizing it...

well india was lucky, apart from hiccup in late 90s , it had an option of co development and it went for it where india knew she cant do it for example the flight control and some systems. i think when it comes OPTIONS in development of LCA nothing went terribly wrong unlike countries like china where she had the problem of lack of support from outside. india never had the problem.

I think this it is too simplistic way to put things....Major areas of research and development were critically hampered when we were put under sanctions due to nuke tests...It is like a double whammy....because all the assumptions and planning go down the road...should you know that such technologies are going to be denied you plan accordingly..however when you are in mid of something and are shown the door then its a big setback...

if LCA is a failure its due to clear cut mistakes by planners and lack of co ordination btween IAF and DRDO.

No doubt that's a part of the problem...however pinning the entire blame on this aspect is plane wrong...The issue was actually timelines which is what forced IAF to change requirements and made DRDO case even more difficult...mind it i am not denying lack of co-ordination...

dont think the excuse that most countries go through it works here.Yes it would have been a valid point had india been under sanctions like china is.

The point is valid for USA/USSR/France/China and all the countries who are making fighter jets(or in general complex defence products)...Just look at any new technology that comes up in any of these countries...Another example would be to compate the Specs of JF-17 when it was first inducted in your Air-force....

india has no problem in completing LCA, it can get an engine, radar anytime from anywhere it want, so why wasnt it done back in mid 2000s. DRDO insisted that kaveri is good while IAF didnt want it.

Again you are making it too simplistic here...IAF never said they don't want kaveri...they put on the expectations from the engine and DRDO was confident they would achieve those specs...DRDO failed to achieve it though however work is in progress..however Tejas will not be left hostage to it...I mean it makes sense..no?? How can you think of an indigenous fighter jet on an imported engine??

the fault lies in lack of ordination between IAF and DRDO; both working against each other rather than together as both have different interests than a common interest

Absolutely...however this is just one aspect...