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India's Tejas and China's Xiaolong fighters compared

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Like I said. Just say that the LCA is a world class aircraft and they will be happy. Facts be damned.

It has not come in 27 page. you can wait and check the forum 24*7 in the exceptionthose comment to that you can troll and bluff.

Tejas is not yet inducted and deployed. But don''t let facts hit you on the face. Tejas is world's best 4th gen aircraft and whatever else that helps you sleep better.
 
Like I said. Just say that the LCA is a world class aircraft and they will be happy. Facts be damned.



Tejas is not yet inducted and deployed. But don''t let facts hit you on the face. Tejas is world's best 4th gen aircraft and whatever else that helps you sleep better.

you are a wishfull thinker who want some type of post from Indian posters fo that you can troll. When you do not see that kind of comment coming, you put words in others mouth. Can't you live without trolling? Has anybody claimed here that tejas is best 4th generation aircraft? It is chinese news paper which has find tejas better.
 
you are a wishfull thinker who want some type of post from Indian posters fo that you can troll. When you do not see that kind of comment coming, you put words in others mouth. Can't you live without trolling? Has anybody claimed here that tejas is best 4th generation aircraft? It is chinese news paper which has find tejas better.

I find it funny when people like you quote me first and then accuse others of trolling. Of course you claiming LCA is a good aircraft is not trolling at all, oh no not at all.

Yes LCA is a good aircraft and the IAF is pleased to induct them. Happy now? Now don't quote me again.
 
If Thunder is chines the LCA is also not indian as all of its major components even the design is foreign So its a comparison between Pak-Chines Thunder with Multi National (US, UK, France, Germany, Israel, Russia) Tejas.


@ziaulislam @Dazzler @shah1398
Well, in other threads relating to this CAG report, I have had asked the Pakistani commentators "You have quoted our CAG report?" that's nice. CAG controls our nation(it is an independent organization like judiciary) regarding all the monetary transaction, whether any Govt. use the money properly or not. Remember our Coal scam or 2G scam. The present Govt. has made lot of money from the CAG report (by auctioning).

I want to ask Pakistani commentators as to if there is any CAG like institutions in Pakistan or whatever the Army says becomes its Bible?? If there would have been no CAG, then you would not have any chance to comment on this!!
Take it easy. We are comparing chinese and Indian Plane . You have no reason to get offended.
 
First of all thanks for taking time and putting in so much effort...I appreciate it however let me share my disagreements...

Thank you. In my age I feel less than patient with pre-teen warriors who believe they are doing their country a great service by trolling on the internet.
Fair enough....

Technically yes, the Mig-21s will have to play a role because they are in the active service. Just how effective their presence will be in the air war is open for debate.
Great...So let's build our case from here....we both agree that Mig-21 would be used...now how effective they would be will depend on the role and responsibility that would be given to them, the theater on which they need to operate and of-course the fighters they will have to engage with....I think the last point is where you have problems....however don't you think the first two parts will play a big role in the third part??

Anyhow don't you think...Tejas will only improve the level of sorry situation we have given the high number of Migs..even if it is by a fraction...no?

Look bro, you so far sound like a rational being so let me ask you. What was the record of IAF Mig-21s in previous wars? I am not asking you about the capability of IAF so please don't talk about MKI and stuff. Just elaborate on the role of Mig-21, their war record and how effective do you think the Migs will be against modern 4/4.5 gen aircraft.

Unlike today where Migs are in news for all the bad reasons..IAF Migs in the past have made us proud...It is an unfair comparison of Migs with modern 4/4.5 generation aircraft and there is high probability that MIGS would be on loosing side...however the way JF-17 won't be pitched one-0-one with Tejas don't you think the similar model will apply here as well?? All our possible adversaries have high end planes and low end planes...and each Air-force will try to save their low end planes from becoming an easy target for high end planes of adversary...and then we all know that a low end plane in familiar territory has an added advantage...

Why are you comparing with PAF?
Just to put the above scenario in your thought process...JF-17 is a good example of how Air-forces induct fighter jets which perhaps might not be as per their wish list at the moment however with the futuristic vision these forces invest in them...Why should Tejas story be any different??

India is the bigger country with a bigger economy and as a result the IAF has superior numbers. Agree? Now if you are PAF air marshal what will you do to negate IAF advantage? Because of financial crunch you cannot afford an entire fleet of F-16 Blk 52. At most you have like 70 odd F-16s and for arguments sake let's assume they are all Blk 52. What else does PAF have?
Like IAF the PAF also have vintage and obsolete aircraft. The Fantan F-7 and Mirage ROSE upgrades are the mainstay of the PAF. The F-16 is the superstar in PAF inventory but they barely make 15% of their fighting force. PAF does not have money to buy squadrons of Typhoon and such aircraft. But at the same time they need to replace ageing aircraft with new ones and hence the JF-17.
Agree the JF-17 is no match for MKI. But what about the Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27 class of aircraft still flown? Jaguar is a good jet but it is a primarily strike aircraft for air-to-ground operations not air-toair so even Jags will feel vulnerable..
I am not sure if you are realized it or not however you are sharing the same thoughts as mine....What we both can conclude from above is given India has top notch fighters yet a lesser plane like JF-17 has not only a decent scope but a decent theater to operate...Not sure why are you not giving the same space to Tejas...Anyhow let me move to the below given reasoning...

The PAF has no option but to go for JF-17/FC-1. What is India's pressing compulsion to go for LCA other than national ego?
And I am not even talking about the PLAAF. They are in a different league.

Look i am not denying the economics angle here however as of now India's GDP is 2 trillion against China's 9 trillion...I am sure you will agree that there is no way we can match them...and thus we need to spend our 30-40 billion budget very judiciously...We are the biggest importer in the world and this is a tag which needs to be shed....Had we been little self-sufficient our 30-40 billion budget would have looked like 50-60 billion...It is not an ego bubble..it is the need of the hour...Anyways i want to understand what is your suggestion here...what should be done with Tejas...should it be scrapped and India's fighter program brought to end....or you have some other suggestion....

and well appreciated...

It is naive to expect PAF will send JF-17 to fight LCA while reserving their falcons to fight MKI. Unfortunately wars are not fought that way. Refer to 1965 air war, a surprise air attack nearly took out bulk of IAF.
And nobody is saying that...

So tell me, what is the IAF/LCA supposed to do when the falcons attack India? ARe they supposed to take to the skies and fight, and get shot down or are they supposed to sit inside the hangars waiting until the PAF sends in JF-17?
That's why i said theater of war and scenario is important...If Pak has send Falcons only formation then it would be fullish for IAF to send Tejas only Formations to take them down...I am no expert in Air War however a couple of MKI's along with a good number of Tejas(out numbering enemy formations given them being cheap) along with home advantage(AWACS, SAMS and related Air-defense). Does this picture look any better to you??

And what about PLAAF? They have like 2000 fighters compared to India's 700 and they have far more Sukhoi 27/variants than the IAF. And almost forgot, they have the Mig-29s as well. How long will LCA last against a PLAAF air war? PLAAF does not even have a single FC-1 so the ego bubble is not valid here. What is LCA supposed to do if in any case China attacks?
Now here you being too critical...2000 fighters of PLAAF also have lot of vintage items....I will repeat once again...Each Air-force is a combination of high end and low end aircrafts...as you need to combine cost prudence and a mightier punch...
 
Great...So let's build our case from here....we both agree that Mig-21 would be used...now how effective they would be will depend on the role and responsibility that would be given to them, the theater on which they need to operate and of-course the fighters they will have to engage with....I think the last point is where you have problems....however don't you think the first two parts will play a big role in the third part??

Unfortunately wars, at least modern wars, are not fought in set-pieces. It is the overall picture that counts. I am not a military officer so I won't pretend such things but my understanding on combat jets is simple - they are used to attack enemy targets and defend native airspace against enemy fighters. Agreed?

Now in 2015 which enemy targets can the Mig-21 attack? Can it launch a raid on Pakistani air bases which will be guarded by modern SAM's. Radars etc? Or can it mount a successful defence of Indian air space against foreign fighters. As a thumb rule air forces send their best pilots and best fighters to strike enemy targets. The reasons are very simple for that, first is to ensure mission success and the second is that there are no second-chances in war, if a mission fails the first time then it is possible they won't ever get a chance again.

Now as you said Mig-21s will be used, they have to be used. But what are the chances they will have against F-16 and J-10?

Yes upgrades are going on but you can only upgrade an aircraft so much. If upgrade was the magic word then IAF would not have had to retire aircraft like Marut, Gnat etc. Mig-21s are being upgraded because they make the bulk of IAF fighting fleet. You cannot retire them over night.

Unlike today where Migs are in news for all the bad reasons..IAF Migs in the past have made us proud...It is an unfair comparison of Migs with modern 4/4.5 generation aircraft and there is high probability that MIGS would be on loosing side...however the way JF-17 won't be pitched one-0-one with Tejas don't you think the similar model will apply here as well?? All our possible adversaries have high end planes and low end planes...and each Air-force will try to save their low end planes from becoming an easy target for high end planes of adversary...and then we all know that a low end plane in familiar territory has an added advantage...

Yes Mig-21s used to be good aircraft back in their day. I don't know which variant of Mig-21 the Russians sold India but let us assume they were the best Russia had.

Having said that Mig-21s could not play a vital role in 1965 and in 1971 it was the Gnats who turned up the unlikely heroes. Possible flashpoint for India against Pakistan would be Kashmir. How effective would Migs be in that altitude? 1999 was a painful reminder that Migs are very very vulnerable to modern air defences. And in case of China the Migs will have to operate over Himalayas.

Again I say the JF-17 is not a choice but compulsion for PAF. PAF does not have the money to buy 100 F-16s, they will go bankrupt. Like IAF they too have an ageing fleet which needs immediate replacement. Plus they also have too look at numbers. That is the sole reason they went for JF-17. It is not the best choice but one can understand why they made the choice.

Just to put the above scenario in your thought process...JF-17 is a good example of how Air-forces induct fighter jets which perhaps might not be as per their wish list at the moment however with the futuristic vision these forces invest in them...Why should Tejas story be any different??

Because IAF is in a better position than PAF. One thing you will have to admit that Pakistan does not take a decade to come to a decision on which weapon they need to buy. They buy fast unlike India. If MMRCA was floated by Pakistan then by now they would have had all 126 air craft in place. By the grace of God they don't have 10 billion dollars to spare.

Tejas does not fit in the "futuristic" vision of IAF. IAF is investing in PAK-FA and the AMCA which in all likelihood will be stealth. What role will Tejas play in future? Building an aircraft takes over resources, time and money. The same time, resources and money can be better utilized by investing in a moder 4.5/5th gen aircraft.

I am not sure if you are realized it or not however you are sharing the same thoughts as mine....What we both can conclude from above is given India has top notch fighters yet a lesser plane like JF-17 has not only a decent scope but a decent theater to operate...Not sure why are you not giving the same space to Tejas...Anyhow let me move to the below given reasoning...

Trust me, if PAF had the liberty or finance to buy a better aircraft they won't even give a second thought to JF-17. They are forced to buy JF-17 because they cannot afford anything better. Their credit is that at the money they have spend they are getting satisfactory returns. Satisfactory returns however do not suggest that in a war the JF-17 will have a chance against MKI. Just like LCA won't have a chance against F-16 Blk 52.

Look i am not denying the economics angle here however as of now India's GDP is 2 trillion against China's 9 trillion...I am sure you will agree that there is no way we can match them...and thus we need to spend our 30-40 billion budget very judiciously...We are the biggest importer in the world and this is a tag which needs to be shed....Had we been little self-sufficient our 30-40 billion budget would have looked like 50-60 billion...It is not an ego bubble..it is the need of the hour...Anyways i want to understand what is your suggestion here...what should be done with Tejas...should it be scrapped and India's fighter program brought to end....or you have some other suggestion....

Scrap the Tejas, not the experience and knowledge earned by working on it. India has got the confidence by building an aircraft that is reasonably good. That experience and confidence should be used to build a better aircraft and build it within a strict deadline. If India invests scientists, engineers, funds and facilities for working on LCA Mk2 which will be a completely new design then when is India going to start working on AMCA? Which is the priority, LCA or AMCA?

As for IAF, a smaller but more lethal force is better. Go for Rafale, MKI, M2K for primary roles while keeping the Jags for strike and Mig-29 for secondary roles. Rest of the aircraft are anyway nearing the end of their service life. No point in risking life and machine.

That's why i said theater of war and scenario is important...If Pak has send Falcons only formation then it would be fullish for IAF to send Tejas only Formations to take them down...I am no expert in Air War however a couple of MKI's along with a good number of Tejas(out numbering enemy formations given them being cheap) along with home advantage(AWACS, SAMS and related Air-defense). Does this picture look any better to you??

If you have a decent air defence fighter you don't need to hold back squadrons of MKI to defend Indian air space. MKIs would then be free for strike role. In your scenario MKI will have to do everything from strike to air superiority.

Now here you being too critical...2000 fighters of PLAAF also have lot of vintage items....I will repeat once again...Each Air-force is a combination of high end and low end aircrafts...as you need to combine cost prudence and a mightier punch...

Yes, PLAAF has vintage aircraft but you need to know that 2000 number is excluding their vintage Mig-19s and such museum artifacts. PLAAF is going leaner and leaner every year and they are adding up Sukhois faster. Presently PLAAF has more Sukhois then India plus they have other 4th gen aircraft. Not to mention their J-20.
 
Buddy if possible try and reduce the length of post...otherwise we both may loose the message due to verbosity....Anyways i am cutting the post with context in tact....please point out if you think i missed some point...

Unfortunately wars, at least modern wars, are not fought in set-pieces.It is the overall picture that counts. I am not a military officer so I won't pretend such things but my understanding on combat jets is simple - they are used to attack enemy targets and defend native airspace against enemy fighters. Agreed?
Now in 2015 which enemy targets can the Mig-21 attack? Can it launch a raid on Pakistani air bases which will be guarded by modern SAM's. Radars etc? Or can it mount a successful defence of Indian air space against foreign fighters. As a thumb rule air forces send their best pilots and best fighters to strike enemy targets. The reasons are very simple for that, first is to ensure mission success and the second is that there are no second-chances in war, if a mission fails the first time then it is possible they won't ever get a chance again.
Look i believe you are guilty of making a valid point however then not applying it entirely....I agree enemy fighters will send in their best fighters....however what about the defenders?? Are you saying that IAF will only put MIgs/Tejas for point defense?? Migs/Tejas are only going to perform point defense however that doesn't mean our high end multi-role will not perform...that's why said there will be mix and match...High end will give you lethal punch(quality) and low ends will give you quantity...also home advantage will surely makes matter even more difficult for enemy...

Again I say the JF-17 is not a choice but compulsion for PAF. PAF does not have the money to buy 100 F-16s, they will go bankrupt. Like IAF they too have an ageing fleet which needs immediate replacement. Plus they also have too look at numbers. That is the sole reason they went for JF-17. It is not the best choice but one can understand why they made the choice.
Agreed...however even if they had money they will go for high end fighters and mix it with low end fighters...because at the end of the day like us they are emerging economies(though right now they are in bad shape)...this is the point that i am trying to make...

Tejas does not fit in the "futuristic" vision of IAF. IAF is investing in PAK-FA and the AMCA which in all likelihood will be stealth. What role will Tejas play in future? Building an aircraft takes over resources, time and money. The same time, resources and money can be better utilized by investing in a moder 4.5/5th gen aircraft.
IMHO this is where probably you are wrong....Look at USAF...they are worlds biggest economy yet they stopped production of F22...because they are resource guzzlers...in other words to make it cost effective they have a decent number of Raptor and then fill in numbers with low end fighters(4-4.5 gen in their case)...

Scrap the Tejas, not the experience and knowledge earned by working on it. India has got the confidence by building an aircraft that is reasonably good. That experience and confidence should be used to build a better aircraft and build it within a strict deadline. If India invests scientists, engineers, funds and facilities for working on LCA Mk2 which will be a completely new design then when is India going to start working on AMCA? Which is the priority, LCA or AMCA?
I am sorry but here you are going horribly wrong....If we have not been able to accomplish a third grade fighter(as per you) like Tejas then may i know how on this earth are you expecting India to build a 5 generation fighter like AMCA?? it seems you are suggesting that by building Tejas in whatever format, we have learned enough to invest in AMCA...this line of thinking IMHO is flawed...and also you are ignoring the fact that there are learnings/improvements which we still need to made in design/air frames/weapons configuration etc etc which will come only from real world experience...Mark my words...unless and until India builds a decent 4 generation aircraft...there is no way it can come close to building 5 generation and that too anywhere near world class...

As for IAF, a smaller but more lethal force is better. Go for Rafale, MKI, M2K for primary roles while keeping the Jags for strike and Mig-29 for secondary roles. Rest of the aircraft are anyway nearing the end of their service life. No point in risking life and machine.
IAF wants 42 squadrons...we are at 34 right now...I am getting the feel here is that you line of thought is to fill the numbers with high end gadgets only...it may sound mighty however ignoring economics...IAF will go bankrupt with such an approach...

If you have a decent air defence fighter you don't need to hold back squadrons of MKI to defend Indian air space. MKIs would then be free for strike role. In your scenario MKI will have to do everything from strike to air superiority.
With all due respect they are called Multi-Role for a reason...IAF invested in them with simply all those roles in mind...

Yes, PLAAF has vintage aircraft but you need to know that 2000 number is excluding their vintage Mig-19s and such museum artifacts. PLAAF is going leaner and leaner every year and they are adding up Sukhois faster. Presently PLAAF has more Sukhois then India plus they have other 4th gen aircraft. Not to mention their J-20.
I am not sure if PLAAF has 2000 high end aircrafts...one has to be crazy but then chinese have their own way of doing things...if i take your number on face value then we are already doomed...and in fact even more important that we should be able to build our own fighter...as with foreign maal we can't reduce this gap even after 30 years from now on...without making an USSR of ourselves..
 
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With all due respect they are called Multi-Role for a reason...IAF invested in them with simply all those roles in mind...
read post 384 and do reply after reading that to the use of the Tejas....
 
Do not cry. Your crying is not going to make any difference as this is accepted by china itself. Which aircraft is better.
i am not saying that JF-17 is better your crapy LCA, iam saying that is this your self reliance for crapy little LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT, every nut bolt in your crapy LCA is foreign may be paint job is also foreign :lol::lol:and you called it your INDIGENOUS junk, you are speechless, answerless, i am not crying you are crying, please answer me why your crapy little LCA junk is your INDIGENOUS product? please explain to me:rofl::crazy::crazy:
 
Thanks for pointing out...let me share my thoughts...I don't have the earlier context so please point out if i missed the point entirely....
ok first of all there are too many trolls on this thread.
To compare the two aircraft without seeing their use is sheer idiocy. The JF-17 is always going to be to defend Pakistani airspace and is not meant as a plane that will cross the border into enemy space for extended missions. The LCA will have to be part of a larger Indian air force entering into Pakistani airspace and facing not only resistance from other air planes but air defences.
Ummm i disagree...LCA is a point defense aircraft...Please let me know why you think LCA will be on strike mission??

The LCA is not suited for the purpose it was built for, because if it was policing the airspace it has composite materials which are expensive to use and later maintain. And at the money already thrown into this project it would have been better to induct more variants of Su-30.
I am not an expert however LCA is supposedly a light weight fighter and composites play a great role there..no?? I will repeat LCA is supposedly point defense...

If it is air supremacy it is not suited because it does not have any advanced measures to protect against air to air missiles or SAMs.
SAM's i can understand but irrespective of the role don't you think any aircraft in today's world need to have advanced measures to protect against air to air??

Also this is off topic, but India has to stop counting its entire air force in it's comparison with Pakistan because it will never leave its border with China without air protection. Also counting Mig 21 as a weapon is not really a smart move. It is like us counting our F-7s.
You need to think about nukes as well...It is foolish for any country to engage in a foreign war(like you opted out of yemen) and its sinister to join in when theater has the potential to go nuclear...

The issue always seen here is that members forget the use of the aircraft and which scenarios it will be seen in. It does not matter what the design is or whose it is or what is its origin, because in the end war sees none of those things. The JF-17 is a platform which has the ability to fire very capable BVR missiles and manage itself well in a dog fight. For a cash strapped Pakistan they are a very potent jet and do not forget the missiles do not care which jet they leave, they only know which jet they have to take out. The larger wings, the increased lift, the ability to take off from multiple locations all point to a jet which is made to take out enemy jets effectively in a short time frame. They are very good for an army which wants to guard its airspace but not for any large offensive action.
and why all the above doesn't apply to Tejas??

The reason India prefers 2 engine air crafts is the very reason LCA will not be a force multiplier in the IAF.
Well that preference has its historical roots...having said that twin engine add weight and cost...thus a single engine variant does have the potential to act as force multiplier...If ADA can do a good job in Tejas you will see this line of mine being a reality...

Decreased speed, more warning time, less resilient against a potent air defence, this money would have and should have been spent on the Rafale deal with TOT instead.
Tejas and MMRCA both were supposed to go hand in hand...It is not like money from MMRCA was directed to Tejas which lead to former being scrapped...

Because unlike Pakistan, India has another formidable air force it will have to deal with very soon, which will not even consider the Tejas a threat.
Don't you think matching might of an economy almost 4 times your size and that too with high end gadgets is not smart...you will need to mix and match..no??
 
i am not saying that JF-17 is better your crapy LCA, iam saying that is this your self reliance for crapy little LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT, every nut bolt in your crapy LCA is foreign may be paint job is also foreign :lol::lol:and you called it your INDIGENOUS junk, you are speechless, answerless, i am not crying you are crying, please answer me why your crapy little LCA junk is your INDIGENOUS product? please explain to me:rofl::crazy::crazy:


If I try to explain you, your crapy mind will not understand. The mother country has accepted that LCA is much better. You can cry now. Write Crapy for 10 tims more. Write LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT 20 times. That will give some relief to your burning heart.
 
If I try to explain you, your crapy mind will not understand. The mother country has accepted that LCA is much better. You can cry now. Write Crapy for 10 tims more. Write LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT 20 times. That will give some relief to your burning heart.
Thek hai Parhabo please tell this to IAF that it's 4.5 gen fighter so they start inducting it.
 
If I try to explain you, your crapy mind will not understand. The mother country has accepted that LCA is much better. You can cry now. Write Crapy for 10 tims more. Write LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT 20 times. That will give some relief to your burning heart.
because you have no answer for me,:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: i am not denying that your crapy little LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT better than our JF-17 but it is not your INDIGENOUS product you guys copy and paste every technology used in your crapy little LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT and put a name of yours, go worship your crapy little LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFT that can destroy whole PAF and PLAAF at once:rofl::lol::flame::flame::blah::p::p::p::p:
 
Thek hai Parhabo please tell this to IAF that it's 4.5 gen fighter so they start inducting it.

Wet dream of both tejas blind fanboys and pakistani military establishment.

Never going to happen in large numbers. Tejas is not really military grade just a platform for testing aeronautical systems in hopes that one day a basic 4th gen MR fighter will be built.
 
Wet dream of both tejas blind fanboys and pakistani military establishment.

Never going to happen in large numbers. Tejas is not really military grade just a platform for testing aeronautical systems in hopes that one day a basic 4th gen MR fighter will be built.
yes you are on the spot Mr you are developing test platform for next gen fighter of yours eg:AMCA
 
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