India's Tejas and China's Xiaolong fighters compared

[HariPrasad]

Take it easy. We are comparing chinese and Indian Plane . You have no reason to get offended.

in your wet dream, everything in your beloved crapy little LAST CHANCED AIRCRAFTS is foreign, its a scaledown version JAS-37 vigan without canard, its radar is israeli, engine is american, avionics from isaeli, french, russian and some indian, fly by wire technology is also develop and tested by american on F-16 VISTA in late 80s and early90s and you indian fanboys called your metal scrap junk named LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT your INDIGENOUS junk

 

[shah1398]

Is LCA really desired by IAF or it is being pushed by the govt?Its not me rather CAG India is saying something about Tejas....So now what???Extract from the news.

India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project, in the works for over three decades, came under severe criticism from the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) on Friday, which said the Mark-I version has several shortcomings and does not meet IAF specifications.

Not only that, Indian Air Force (IAF) would be "constrained" to induct the fighter LCA without availability of a trainer model, thereby "adversely impacting pilot training", the audit body said in a report tabled in Parliament.

The CAG noted that it was due to the delay in the manufacture and supply of LCA that IAF had to go for alternative temporary measures such as upgrading its MIG BIS, MiG-29, Jaguar, and Mirage aircraft at a cost of Rs. 20,037 crore and revise the phasing out of MiG-21s.

Listing the shortcomings, the CAG said that the LCA Mark-I fails to meet the electronic warfare capabilities sought by IAF as the Self-Protection Jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints.

Also, it said that the Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcome (January 2015).

The LCA Mark-I, which got Initial Operational Clearance in December, 2013, significantly falls short (20 permanent waivers/33 temporary concessions) in meeting the Air Staff Requirement (ASR), the CAG said, adding that that has led to reduced operational capabilities and survivability and, consequently, its operational employability.

It added that the shortcomings in the Mark-I (increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of fuel system protection, pilot protection from front, reduced speed) are expected to be overcome in the Mark-II model.

"LCA Mark-I does not meet the ASR. The deficiencies are now expected to be met in LCA Mark-II by December 2018," the CAG said.

While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January this year.

Systems such as Kaveri engine, Multi-Mode Radar, Radome, Multi-Functional Display System and Flight Control System Actuators taken up for indigenous development could not be developed successfully, resulting in LCA's continued dependence on the import of these systems, CAG said.

And it goes on.

 

[cerberus]

Here we have a project with 50+ major deficiencies and yet all hail tejas !

what are the Problems these Major Problems Just Explain Which Cannot be addressed ???

 

[Dazzler]

what are the Problems these Major Problems Just Explain Which Cannot be addressed ???

"India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project, in the works for over three decades, came under severe criticism fromCAG today as it pointed out that its Mark-I version has 53 "significant shortfalls" which have reduced its operational capabilities as well as survivability. "

 

[cerberus]

Also, it said that the Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcome (January 2015).

So its Permanent problems ???RWR and Counter Measure Dispensing System Can Be out Sourced It has been done in past In the interim, the Indian Ministry of Defence has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites had been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes. Main thing the CAG finding Highlighted these Problems which Made both HAL/ADA bound to addressed these Short comings

"India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project, in the works for over three decades, came under severe criticism fromCAG today as it pointed out that its Mark-I version has 53 "significant shortfalls" which have reduced its operational capabilities as well as survivability. "

List few Short comings which are Major and Permanent don't Dodge the Question

 

[ziaulislam]

What are these Problems?

We could not complete Kaveri, We took some part of Radar from Other country, Some part of HUD sourced from Others. Now tell me whether any of above hinders the performance of Tejas? So before jumping from joy, read the content.

I have no problem with tejas I think its an excellent aircraft, your CAG and IAF has the problem with it!!
Just to update u CAG says its overweight,less fuel, radar wasn't developed, electronics warfare not efficient and in total 53 problems. in addition it has been very slow causing problems and cost over runs in updating older equipment /other aircrafts

 

[cerberus]

I have no problem with tejas I think its an excellent aircraft, your CAG and IAF has the problem with it!!

1. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India (Hindi:भारत के नियंत्रक-महालेखा परीक्षक) is an authority, established by the Constitution of India under article 148, who audits all receipts and expenditure of the Government of India and the state governments ...

SO Now your Saying that CAG which Main work is Audit the Check and Balances oF GOI will have Knowledge about Technical Defense Matter they Made there Report on basis of Technical ASR Parameters of IAF no one one is Denying that its shortfalls.but that did not Deny Potency of the aircraft Any how

 

[Keel]

Meet and greet JF-17 Block II exposed in the internet

新版枭龙战机总装线曝光 电子战设备清晰可见(图)

时间：2015-04-10 08:57:29
标签：清晰 可见 设备 电子 战机

近日，巴基斯坦枭龙Block2战机的总装线照片曝光，图中可见，1架编号为2P04号枭龙Block2战机正在组装，在战斗机的垂直尾翼部分，可以看到用于电子对抗的多个天线。同时远处还有多架枭龙已经喷涂了灰色涂装。

　　巴基斯坦方面声称“枭龙”/超级雷电JF-17 Block2战机有多处改进，如航程有所增加、改进雷达、增加探测距离、增加超视距攻击能力、可携挂各种确制导武器，并加装了空中受油管。另外巴方称年产量将从16架逐步增加到25架。

组装中的枭龙Block2战机 ，远处的战斗机已经喷涂灰色涂装

组装中的战斗机垂直尾翼，可以看到电子对抗等多个天线

组装中的2P04号枭龙Block2战机

　　据观察者网此前报道，《简氏防务周刊》称：Block2型JF-17战机安装的是KLJ-7型机载脉冲多普勒火控雷达，图片拍摄于2月19日，这是巴基斯坦航空工业公司生产线上的几架战斗机之一。目前正在研制的block3型战机，将会安装新型的有源相控阵雷达(AESA)。

Translation：

According to previously report, "Jane's Defense Weekly," said: Block2 of JF-17 fighter jets have been installed with KLJ-7 Airborne Pulsed Doppler fire control radar The images were taken in February 19 from Pakistani production line.

Currently block 3 is under research and development. Block 3 will be installed with AESA


So the OP is correct
JF 17 is the fighter jet of today. It is always improving itself with technologies
Tomorrow fills with uncertainties

 

[Dazzler]

So its Permanent problems ???RWR and Counter Measure Dispensing System Can Be out Sourced It has been done in past In the interim, the Indian Ministry of Defence has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites had been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes. Main thing the CAG finding Highlighted these Problems which Made both HAL/ADA bound to addressed these Short comings


List few Short comings which are Major and Permanent don't Dodge the Question

learn to understand basic english first, dont waste my time. quote me once more and get reported!

 

[ziaulislam]

1. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India (Hindi:भारत के नियंत्रक-महालेखा परीक्षक) is an authority, established by the Constitution of India under article 148, who audits all receipts and expenditure of the Government of India and the state governments ...

SO Now your Saying that CAG which Main work is Audit the Check and Balances oF GOI will have Knowledge about Technical Defense Matter they Made there Report on basis of Technical ASR Parameters of IAF no one one is Denying that its shortfalls.but that did not Deny Potency of the aircraft Any how

true audit general isnt a institution to evaluate LCA on technical grounds. Lca if evaluated on technical grounds is decent aircraft, equal or better than thunder in raw performance, problem is CAG evaluation doesn't say aircraft is bad, it simply says aircraft is useless for IAF...i.e It doesnt meet IAF requirements. It also says that alot of money spent went down the drain.

CAG comments on dozens of projects from defence to logistics, education , health..you cant discards its report on basis that they have no expertise in those fields, also CAG isnt unique to india every country has it, and in every country its comments are taken seriously

point is CAG simply states that LCA money spent was wrong ..thats what any auditor does; they audit, it is not necessary for them to have any technical expertise in those field to comment on it. there field is to look at requirements and achievements that it..they are not there to evaluate how LCA performs. there job is to look at the data given to them. they simply looked at data from IAF, DRDO, HAL and concluded that HAL produced something that IAF didnt want and thus money spent was useless.

its similar to reports on F-35..now f-35 is aircraft that can beat any thing in world easily yet some aspects of the program was a failure especially on spending front but their reports do mention that USAF still likes it and it surpass USAF requirements so over all it wasnt a failure

 

[shah1398]

List few Short comings which are Major and Permanent don't Dodge the Question[/QUOTE]
@cerberus
Dear Sir, Let me answer it in professional way. Tejas project kicked off in 1983. It was a time when the Modular design of placing aircraft components was shaping in but was in hands of most advanced countries in aviation esp USA and it was not shared with anyone (like is done now that a technology is kept for sometimes and then given to other countries). That is why even Chinese aircraft of that era had non modular designs which made those aircraft time consuming in maintenance and left little or now room for any upgrades. But problem for Tejas were more than that.Initially it struggled to come online in time with then design and surpassed all deadlines and when it did after much delays then the tech of 80s was quite outdated for Tejas and that is why IAF was not at all interested in it.But when JF-17 came online and multiplied in numbers fast enough then govt pressed IAF to go for it as it was still negotiating MRCA deal then and was worried about fast depleting squadrons of IAF.Design of Tejas is same as non modular.U can upgrade the Radar by totally replacing it and some Nav aids but over all it is a very difficult aircraft to make up-gradations in.Now would Tejas be redesigned on Modular basis?I dont think so.

Regarding shortcomings i would request you to please read the article in detail.Its all over news in indian media.but still let me take a few points for your consumption (these points are written in the article and are not at all my view point).

1. No trainer model is av till now which would hamper the training of new pilots (can be covered through a good training simulator as is done by JF-17 but is there any for Tejas?).
2. LCA Mark- I fails to meet the electronic warfare capabilities sought by IAF as the Self-Protection Jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints (Like i pointed about non modular design of LCA).
3. Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcome till January this year (Reliability issues and would take time to address it).
4. While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January this year (Question Mark on indigenization as claimed by India).

DRDO has promised to address some of the shortcomings in Tejas Mark II version but it would only be rolling out in 2018 (not sure about delays and then serial production).

Sir I hope i have made my point clear

 

[thesolar65]

@ziaulislam @Dazzler @shah1398
Well, in other threads relating to this CAG report, I have had asked the Pakistani commentators "You have quoted our CAG report?" that's nice. CAG controls our nation(it is an independent organization like judiciary) regarding all the monetary transaction, whether any Govt. use the money properly or not. Remember our Coal scam or 2G scam. The present Govt. has made lot of money from the CAG report (by auctioning).

I want to ask Pakistani commentators as to if there is any CAG like institutions in Pakistan or whatever the Army says becomes its Bible?? If there would have been no CAG, then you would not have any chance to comment on this!!

 

[shah1398]

@ziaulislam @Dazzler @shah1398
Well, in other threads relating to this CAG report, I have had asked the Pakistani commentators "You have quoted our CAG report?" that's nice. CAG controls our nation(it is an independent organization like judiciary) regarding all the monetary transaction, whether any Govt. use the money properly or not. Remember our Coal scam or 2G scam. The present Govt. has made lot of money from the CAG report (by auctioning).

I want to ask Pakistani commentators as to if there is any CAG like institutions in Pakistan or whatever the Army says becomes its Bible?? If there would have been no CAG, then you would not have any chance to comment on this!!

Dear Sir, every country has its own way of checking and monitoring system of ongoing projects in field defense productions and so are systems in place in Pakistan. And I would rather shy away from going into the details and mechanism of it.Am little amused to find out CAG India lays hands on all type of matters (both civil and military). But the topic of thread is comparison between Tejas and Thunder.I really dont find any relevance of your question if there is any CAG type authority in Pakistan.I would rather request you to go through the points raised by me and enlighten us if there is any fabrication in any of it.Lets stay on topic.I would be grateful

 

[cerberus]

1. No trainer model is av till now which would hamper the training of new pilots (can be covered through a good training simulator as is done by JF-17 but is there any for Tejas?).

Wrong
Tejas Trainer PV 6 completes first flight successfully - Oneindia

2. LCA Mark- I fails to meet the electronic warfare capabilities sought by IAF as the Self-Protection Jammer could not be fitted on the aircraft due to space constraints (Like i pointed about non modular design of LCA).

that cannot make any Fighter less Potent and

3. Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System fitted on the aircraft had raised performance concerns which are yet to be overcome till January this year (Reliability issues and would take time to address it).

First Understand This EW suite, known as Mayavi for LCA , includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and a Laser warning receiver (LWR) system, Infrared & Ultraviolet Missile warning sensors, self-protection jammer, chaff, jaff and flares dispenser, an electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite and a towed radar decoy (TRD)

RWR is used in tejas was deisned by DARE ( Defence Avionics Research Establishment) which is Tarang 1B and CMDS it has Some Performance Issues which are addressed by CAG report but these issues are not Permanent one the issues are Being addressed Please go through Report LCA is Still Have time for FOC

Let me Guide you Tarang RWR is developed by DARE, Bangalore. It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library - it can store information off the type of fighter aircraft radar detected and identify it. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Tarang RWR is now almost t standard to IAF aircraft. The MiG-21 Bison, MiG-27ML, SEPECAT Jaguar DARIN II, MiG-29UPG, HAL Tejas and the Su-30MKI all have Tarang or Tranquil RWRs.
Tarang RWR antennae are placed around the aircraft for all round coverage, the most common of which is the dorsal fin. You will easily spot the Tarang RWR on the dorsal fins of MiG-21 Bisons, Jaguar DARIN IIs, and HAL Tejas.

4. While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January this year (Question Mark on indigenization as claimed by India).

Moot Point how this 35 % indigenization Point will Effect the Performance of the Aircraft As it Mostly uses Israelis,French and even British which Known for their Effective Systems


Not Even one point Suggest that LCA is Not a Potent Aircraft But Many of its Features Surpass Aircraft which are already in use in IAF Eg mig-21,Mig-27

your point of Money going in drain is Moot one Money spend on R&D in the project Never goes Waste you seem to have not Known this Because PAC is Never Achieved Anything Significant in Indigenous Industry

As for Failure of the Tejas project Mod is already ordered 40 Mk1 and vision to have Atleast 10 Squardors of the aircraft as for funds it already issued for Mk2
Mod is Keen on investing foreign vendors Like SAAB interested in Such Project Mod is spending huge amount of money on LCA take Latest comment from are DM parikar Today Itself

Parrikar also said that with India buying around 36 Rafale jets for now, government savings on this project is likely to be up Rs 60,000-65,000 crore. This money, Parrikar said, will be used to accelerate defence manufacturing in India, including speeding up the long-ingestation Light Combat Aircraft. The minister said LCA will be inducted in large numbers, up to 200 fighters or 10 squadrons.

Read more at:
50% of Rafale deal value will be invested in India: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

@ziaulislam @Dazzler @shah1398
Well, in other threads relating to this CAG report, I have had asked the Pakistani commentators "You have quoted our CAG report?" that's nice. CAG controls our nation(it is an independent organization like judiciary) regarding all the monetary transaction, whether any Govt. use the money properly or not. Remember our Coal scam or 2G scam. The present Govt. has made lot of money from the CAG report (by auctioning).

I want to ask Pakistani commentators as to if there is any CAG like institutions in Pakistan or whatever the Army says becomes its Bible?? If there would have been no CAG, then you would not have any chance to comment on this!!

it is Surprising that Same So called Think tanks and Intellectuals Question Credibility of CAG when it Criticize Army for Determining Capabilities of Arjun Tank Specially one you mentioned in you Post.

CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks’ induction

 

[Ultima Thule]

Take it easy. We are comparing chinese and Indian Plane . You have no reason to get offended.

i am answering to your that statement that you called your junk LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT is your INDIGENOUS product, why don't you guys accept thos fact your junk LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT is'nt your INDIGENOUS product, its a copy and paste thing and put the name of yours, huh hard to digest