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India's sly game on Siachen

Pakistan can easily carry on in perpetuity with Siachen since there is no shortage of men, officers and money available to sustain the deployment...the issue is the wastage....which is what the Pakistani side needs to get over.

If Pakistan was bothered about wastage there are mnay other things they need to be more bothered abt. And also since India is spending even more to hold on to position, you are at an advantageius position visa vis India.

Externally Pakistan is the securest it has ever been regardless of Indian buildup. There is nothing overtly dangerous facing Pakistan right now her Eastern borders...

I wasnt forecasting or expecting a break up or anything of that sort. Pakistan is facing internal insurgencies, suicidal bombings at regular levels. tribals in eastern border are at logger heads with GOP and PA. Things have cooled down after the peace agreement but isnt that because you gave them a freehand and told PA wouldnt get involved.

I guess Mushraff has got a breather that he planned by signing the peace agreement, probably he was planning to redeploy some more troops there ( after some sort of kashmir/siachin agreeement) to demand more from the troops. It hasnt happened as India yielded anything.

The existing force levels are also enough and the PA has not gone in for any additional raising of units/divs, rather its in the process of consolidating its units by creating 3 regional commands for the Army.

I said if they dont get more troops to be deployed in west, they might have to raise more. Its an assumption not an assertion.

The biggest miscalculation on the Indian part is to assume that Pakistan is desparate...Musharraf may want a compromise with India for domestic consumption, however this is not due to any security compulsion (external or internal).

Then why? he is at logger heads with the islamic parties for backing the Americans and survived direct attacks on him. Why does he want to give India concessions stepping back from its decades old stance which it has supported and armed so vigorously?
 
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And in the Indian State Machinery we trust! Trust to chicken out :).

What's the worst that could happen if we tried to take Siachen?
Actually, you guys did try back in 1984. Look what happened. Who controlled the glacier every since?

Oh yes, we chicken out alright!
 
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Thank god, Pakistan is not part of our country. Thank god for partition. Look at your situation now, look at ours. Thank god.


What should we look for? How good is your situation now? 80% living under 2 dollars compared to 65% in Pakistan? :lol: 10 millions people with aids and still growing. Now surly we don't want growth like this.
 
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Wednesday, May 23, 2007

No strategic significance of Siachen
By Gurmeet Kanwal

Many Indian analysts have made militarily unsustainable projections about the possibility of a China-Pakistan pincer movement over the Karakoram Range and the Saltoro Ridgeline into northern Ladakh. Such exaggerated apprehensions are truly amazing

India’s defence minister, A K Antony, visited Siachen Glacier on May 5, 2007 and reiterated the official position on demilitarising the zone of conflict by saying: “India is ready for a solution. But from the very beginning, our position has been very clear. Before any forward movement, both sides must agree to authenticate the actual troop positions, both on the map and on the ground.” With Pakistan refusing to do so, negotiations have floundered.

The key question that must be asked is whether Siachen has major strategic significance that justifies prolonged occupation, or are the two nations fighting over an icy wasteland merely for jingoistic and chauvinistic reasons?

In his book “Siachen: Conflict Without End”, Lt-Gen V R Raghavan (Retd), a former DGMO, has written: “The [Siachen] theatre of conflict, as is now widely accepted, did not offer strategic advantages... It is clear that neither India nor Pakistan wished the Siachen conflict to assume its lasting and expensive dimensions.” To justify a prolonged conflict, a piece of land must provide significant military advantage and open up options for seeking major military gains. It should either deny the adversary an avenue to launch strategic-level offensive operations to capture sensitive territory or resources, or offer the home side a launch pad for such a purpose.

Alternatively, for a landmass to be considered strategically significant, it must be politically or economically important. The neighbouring cities of Amritsar and Lahore are politically important for India and Pakistan, respectively. The provinces of Alsace and Lorraine were economically important to France and Germany due to the huge iron ore reserves that these provinces had and several wars were fought to gain control over them. Siachen does not qualify as an area of strategic importance on any of these grounds though it has now become a politically sensitive issue.

Many Indian analysts have made militarily unsustainable projections about the possibility of a China-Pakistan pincer movement over the Karakoram Range and the Saltoro Ridgeline into northern Ladakh with a view to capturing Leh. Such exaggerated apprehensions are truly amazing as these fail to take into account the lack of a road axis to mount and sustain a major offensive logistically. Thousands of tons of ammunition, fuel, oil and lubricants, and other supplies, including rations, clothing items for the extreme climatic conditions prevailing at Siachen and spares and batteries for radio sets and other telecom equipment, would need to be dumped over two to three summer seasons before a worthwhile military offensive could be launched. Since a major road cannot be built over a moving sheet of ice in what is perhaps the most treacherous mountainous terrain in the world, all logistics preparations by the adversaries would have to be undertaken by employing large transport helicopters. These slow-moving monsters would be sitting ducks for the fighter jets of the Indian Air Force.

Even if one were to grant the possibility of a joint China-Pakistan offensive into Ladakh, however remote the probability is in the new geo-political environment, better options are available to both the countries to plan and execute their offensives such that the Indian army is unbalanced at the operational level.

China could develop its operations using the Demchok road along the Indus River as well as along the Chushul axis and Pakistan could plan to advance along the relatively less difficult Chalunka-Thoise approach from Skardu while simultaneously attacking into the Kargil sector to cut off Ladakh. If operations along this approach to Thoise, astride the Shyok River, could be successfully conducted by Pakistan, the Siachen area would be automatically cut off. Hence, it is more important to defend this axis in the Turtok sector rather than fight at Siachen itself.

Both the governments must make a dispassionate politico-military assessment of the advantages of defending Siachen and the costs of the conflict in terms of human lives and material resources. Dr Stephen Cohen, a well-known and respected Washington-based South Asia analyst, has described the Siachen conflict as a fight between two bald men over a comb. In his view, “Siachen... is not militarily important... They [Indian and Pakistani armies] are there for purely psychological reasons, testing each other’s ‘will’.”

It is strategically unwise to continue to maintain a brigade group of almost 5,000 men at Siachen in treacherous terrain and harsh climatic conditions. The Siachen area should be accepted as a jointly controlled peace park for the scientific study of glacial belts and the effects of super high altitude on flora and fauna — a “mountain of peace” as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had called it during a visit in June 2005.

Demilitarisation of the Siachen conflict zone will be a confidence building measure of enormous significance for Indo-Pakistan relations.

The author, a former brigadier of Indian army, is Senior Fellow, Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\05\23\story_23-5-2007_pg3_3
 
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Well if Siachen is not strategically important,why bother then? I wonder why Pakistan claims it?
Consider it as a high altitude post for the armies.

Armies are meant to do weird things which are beyond the comprehensive of a normal person. As per the cost is consider, where would they spend the money that is saved by disengaging? Back into some other operation. Overall again it makes no difference !
 
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The writer was a former DGMO. Thats a really big post. I respect his opinion but that doesnt mean I agree with him. I'd like to hear Salims opinions. Not being in the army and not having fully read about the forces means I cannot understand half of what they say most of the times. :oops:
 
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Imho its a very good read. Neither side could take it by force, nor can it be used by either China or Pakistan to attack India.

“Siachen... is not militarily important... They [Indian and Pakistani armies] are there for purely psychological reasons, testing each other’s ‘will’.”
 
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Imho its a very good read. Neither side could take it by force, nor can it be used by either China or Pakistan to attack India.
India can/did/does use it to bomb the Karakoram highway. Which is exactly why they don't want to move out of it... They keep saying Pak will move onto it when India moves out, but even if Pak moved it, its worthless for us...
 
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Asim, the key to Leh is via Kargill not Siachen...the place is worthless to us. Let India defend it the way she is, its only costing more and more lives and many $$$.

We can always 'pull a Kargill' and this time with modern waepons. :enjoy:
 
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Hey, if the place was worthless is Pakistan talking to us about a deal on pull-out out of pure goodwill ? :coffee:

We'd all like to see things in black and white. They aren't. What hurts us, will hurt you. Vice versa.
 
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Hey, if the place was worthless is Pakistan talking to us about a deal on pull-out out of pure goodwill ? :coffee:

We'd all like to see things in black and white. They aren't. What hurts us, will hurt you. Vice versa.

Pakistan didn't say it's worthless, it's your Indian Ex-Army officer who's saying it on Indian be-half, so I think you should lecture him instead of us.
 
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Hey, if the place was worthless is Pakistan talking to us about a deal on pull-out out of pure goodwill ? :coffee:

We'd all like to see things in black and white. They aren't. What hurts us, will hurt you. Vice versa.

It does not bother pakistan, they are willing to stay on their position for long time, since paksitan occupies lower altitutde compare to India the matter isnt as serious for pakistan. It is in Indias interest to solve this issue ASAP so they can pull bak troops. There is no benifit for either country, though it is terroritory of pakistan prior to 80s occupation other than that the ice sheet has not value.

however both countries are losing solider which is matter of concern for both nation. But as i said earlier its far serious for india due to higher altitude leading to more casaulities..
 
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however both countries are losing solider which is matter of concern for both nation.

We're not losing soldiers in Siachen anymore.

We'll stay put.
 
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^^ denial is not the best way to go forward.... What do u mean any more??? and how do u know that is not hte case.... Try reading ur own media article which state that due to high alltitude many of the soldier are not just suffering from the sever cold they are also having sexual disfunctions which now requires treatment. Not this is resulting in family problems for many of these soldiers. Y dont u go read abt that stuff. Its not just the deaths but also other effects it has on soldiers...

BTW good luck staying there....
 
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